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Wormwood!

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posted on Apr, 13 2006 @ 02:45 PM
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Originally posted by undothis would mean that literal stars, tried to devour jesus before and after he was born. it would mean, literal stars went out to persecute the people who keep the testimony of jesus. it would mean that a literal star opened the bottomless pit with a key.


This is where you lose me. I'm not sure I understand you here, "stars devouring Jesus before he was born", "stars persecuting the testimony of Jesus", "stars wiping out the remnant of the seed of the woman". You gotta give me chapters and verses here. Where is this coming from? I've read Revelations several times but I do not know it by memory. None of the above rings a bell??? I do remember reading that when the Tribulation goes down the line "woe to women bearing children"-I always wondered what this line meant. Radiation???


these concepts are wrong for several reasons, first of which is the idea that the ocean or any body of water, could be opened with a key. in order to keep your translation of it, you must ignore the key. the key becomes meaningless if it's just a rock punching a hole in the earth's crust. it also requires ignoring the references to the falling stars trying to wipe out jesus, the remnant of the seed of the woman, and the people who keep the testimony of jesus. it also requires translating a falling rock, to a falling star, which is clearly not the same thing and must thereofre have some biblical support to show a precedence, but there isn't one.


So you're saying "fallen stars" are metaphors for "fallen angels"? Why can't "key" be a metaphor for "the one thing that can do the job" (opening the bottomless pit). Why can't the key be an asteroid plunging into our planets core and opening up "hell on earth"?

Read:

12And when He had opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake. And the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, even as a fig tree casts her untimely figs when she is shaken by a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed like a scroll when it is rolled together. And every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every freeman, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains.

It's not even really metaphorical in these verses...it's blatantly obvious what's gonna happen.
We have the words "earthquake", "sun", "moon", "stars", "earth", "heaven", "mountain", "island". We're talking geography and real physical things here, not metaphors. I'm not seeing "spaceships" in this at all or aliens or even angels. Keep in mind in this chapter, "the Lamb" (Jesus) is the one opening these seals....no angels here.

In Revelation 8:
2 And I saw the seven angels who stood before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.
5 And the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar, and cast it into the earth. And voices and thunderings and lightnings and an earthquake occurred.
6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mixed with blood, and they were cast on the earth. And the third part of trees was burned up, and all green grass was burned up.
8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea. And the third part of the sea became blood.
9 And the third part of the creatures in the sea, those having souls, died; and the third part of the ships was destroyed.
10 And the third angel sounded, and a great star burning like a lamp fell from the heaven, and it fell on the third part of the rivers and on the fountains of waters.
11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood, and a third part of the waters became wormwood. And many men died from the waters, because they were made bitter.
12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was stricken, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars, so that the third part of them was darkened, and the day did not appear for a third part of it, and the night also.
13 And I saw and I heard one angel flying in mid-heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, from the rest of the voices of the trumpet of the three angels being about to sound!

In all these lines the "angels" sound trumpets to cause God's wrath. No mention of angels coming down to planet earth (they're still up in heaven in these lines). No mention at all of "fallen angels". The "third angel" who is "standing before God" sends Wormwood down here as punishment. And people die from drinking the water that Wormwood has poisoned. Wormwood is a "thing", not a being. "A great star burning like a lamp, fell from heaven"...stars up in the sky, they burn.......
Good angels are mentioned here - working for God - helping him execute his wrath on mankind. No mention of employing "fallen angels" to do God's dirty work.

Wormwood falls to earth just like "great mountain burning with fire", and "hail and fire". All physically destructive forces coming in at us from the heavens.




posted on Apr, 13 2006 @ 02:59 PM
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Wow, undo, I just read your last post. Pretty far out there!
Wormholes, stargates, alien invasions. I'm not buying it. Interesting take on it all though.
IMHO, I truly believe it's all gonna be a bit more "Jesus/God/mankind/punishment-thing", more so than "stargates, extraterestrials, wormholes and spaceships". Pretty wild, but way to imagniative for my beliefs.

I think it's gonna be more like "witnessing the real supernaturality of God" and paying for our sins.
No spaceships, no aliens............just God, mankind and planet Earth.



posted on Apr, 13 2006 @ 03:19 PM
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zerotolerance,

Well the angels were another creation before us. There's some indication in biblical texts, that they resided in and around the galaxy and even on earth before humans were ever created. Some have access to the other dimension, where I believe is the abode of God, or Heaven. Some don't have access to that other dimension and are stuck here in the physical universe with us. Holy angels can traverse the boundaries between both dominions. Fallen ones cannot. If you read the passages, you will notice that there are alot of very strange things transpiring during tribulation, including the revealing of the fallen ones, who have been ruling over and abusing us and our planet for millenia.

[edit on 13-4-2006 by undo]



posted on Apr, 13 2006 @ 03:28 PM
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zerotolerance again,

you said:
This is where you lose me. I'm not sure I understand you here, "stars devouring Jesus before he was born", "stars persecuting the testimony of Jesus", "stars wiping out the remnant of the seed of the woman". You gotta give me chapters and verses here. Where is this coming from?

my response:
Okay, in Revelation 12, it says the great red dragon's tail, hurls a third of the stars (which is exactly how many of the angels followed satan) to earth in an attempt to stop the birth of jesus. it doesn't work. so they go after the remnant and those who keep the testimony of jesus. if they were literal stars, they could not do these things. therefore, they are beings, angelic beings, deliberately stalking mary and jesus and then those who keep the testimony of jesus.

In Revelation 9, it says that a star falls to earth and he has the key to the bottomless pit. if it were a literal star, it would not have a key. if the bottomless pit was just a hole in the ground or the ocean, it would not need a key. it would not need to be unlocked, and the entire purpose of indicating there's a key and a lock of some kind, is wasted paper.



[edit on 13-4-2006 by undo]



posted on Apr, 13 2006 @ 03:41 PM
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Originally posted by undo
zerotolerance,

Well the angels were another creation before us. There's some indication in biblical texts, that they resided in and around the galaxy and even on earth before humans were ever created. Some have access to the other dimension, where I believe is the abode of God, or Heaven. Some don't have access to that other dimension and are stuck here in the physical universe with us. Holy angels can traverse the boundaries between both dominions. Fallen ones cannot. If you read the passages, you will notice that there are alot of very strange things transpiring during tribulation, including the revealing of the fallen ones, who have been ruling over and abusing us and our planet for millenia.

[edit on 13-4-2006 by undo]


This all sounds feasible. Makes sense.



posted on Apr, 13 2006 @ 03:51 PM
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Originally posted by zerotolerance
I think it's gonna be more like "witnessing the real supernaturality of God" and paying for our sins.
No spaceships, no aliens............just God, mankind and planet Earth.


You've got to be kidding me, tickets are all sold out! Aliens are all going to sit on the moon and watch this whole thing. I mean, it's a once in a dimension type event! The last seat near the dark side of the moon went for pfft, I don't know, around 6 billion credits?

But no really, if I was an alien I'd want to see a planet get torn to shreds with disease, comets, military, nukes, so definitely there are going to be aliens dude.



posted on Apr, 13 2006 @ 03:59 PM
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Originally posted by undo
zerotolerance again,

you said:
This is where you lose me. I'm not sure I understand you here, "stars devouring Jesus before he was born", "stars persecuting the testimony of Jesus", "stars wiping out the remnant of the seed of the woman". You gotta give me chapters and verses here. Where is this coming from?

my response:
Okay, in Revelation 12, it says the great red dragon's tail, hurls a third of the stars (which is exactly how many of the angels followed satan) to earth in an attempt to stop the birth of jesus. it doesn't work. so they go after the remnant and those who keep the testimony of jesus. if they were literal stars, they could not do these things. therefore, they are beings, angelic beings, deliberately stalking mary and jesus and then those who keep the testimony of jesus.

In Revelation 9, it says that a star falls to earth and he has the key to the bottomless pit. if it were a literal star, it would not have a key. if the bottomless pit was just a hole in the ground or the ocean, it would not need a key. it would not need to be unlocked, and the entire purpose of indicating there's a key and a lock of some kind, is wasted paper.



[edit on 13-4-2006 by undo]



Alright, I see your point, just finished reading Rev. 12.
But, here's my point: why can't a word have dual meanings in the Bible?
One metaphoric, and one literal.
In Rev. 12 it reads like a dreamy/hallucinogenic metaphor, but in Rev. 8 it comes across literally/reality-based. I'm sure it can be both, afterall John was being given glimpses of things he had never seen in his life (things way in the future that he probably couldn't grasp the concept of). He probably didn't know what an asteroid was, so to him it's a great fiery mountain in the sky. And smaller asteroids are "stars" to John because that's the only way he can explain bright fiery things falling from the sky. He talks about seeing angels in Rev. 8 throwing objects at the earth for punishment for mans wickedness. I don't picture the angels "hurling" bad angels down to earth, not in Rev. 8. But, I'd totally agree with you about Rev 12, makes perfect sense.

As for the "key to the bottomless pit". The word "key" seems like a metaphor to me here. A huge perfectly aimed asteroid is the "key" to opening the "bottomless pit" (another metaphor for a huge hole oozing lava out of the center of the earth - now think about what that would be like - it would literally look like "hell" - a bottomless pit because it's thousands of miles deep from the impact, and hundreds of miles in circumference too). Now about the "locusts"; I haven't a clue. Have no idea what this is. Pestilence, disease, who knows, maybe when the world cracks open some deep underground dwelling insect that we don't even know exists will pour out of the earth's crust and wreak havoc.

[edit on 13-4-2006 by zerotolerance]



posted on Apr, 13 2006 @ 04:06 PM
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One must also consider the fact you're reading them in 5 minute intervals, as to where metaphoric/literal meaning collide, this all took him hours. So he used a word metaphorically, and 2-3 hours later he used literally. Just to clear up confusion.

And yes, Satan and his Followers obviously tried to stop the birth of Jesus. Many believe that Satan possessed (Herod? Forgot the ruler during that time period) and so (Herod?) made the order to kill all newborns for 3 years, in fear the the messiah would end his reign. Thus comes the theory of Jesus' age, 3 BC or 3 AD is when he wasborn, not 0 B.C.



posted on Apr, 13 2006 @ 04:14 PM
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Zerotolerance,

Well, let's examine the locusts. They are humanoid (long hair on their heads), animorphs/chimeras (tails of scorpions, teeth like lions, wings like locusts). When they fly they create massive sound which strikes fear in the heart of those who hear it. This, to me, is describing flying craft, that contain alien occupants. The bottomless pit is said to contain the fallen angels who lead the world astray before the flood. These are the ones who left their first estate and went after "strange flesh," which is a reference to the events in Genesis 6 and I Enoch, where they mated with human women and created hybrids, who rose up to become the kings of the nations, such as Gilgamesh (who was not fictitious). Gilgamesh considered himself to be 2/3rds "god", because of his anunnaki ancestory from the fallen angels. And just like a good anunnaki hybrid, he went out and impregnated as many of his human female subjects as he could. He did this on the eves of their weddings to their human husbands, so that their first born would be a hybrid too.

[edit on 13-4-2006 by undo]



posted on Apr, 13 2006 @ 04:19 PM
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Undo,

You're failing to understand their interpretations, descriptions and knowledge of UFO's is different than that of today's. Today we have mass-spread media with video/audio/photos.

Back then they had word of mouth, and also much of that book wasn't written by God, nor were most of the books in the N.T., they were written by humans, thus were influenced with opinions, points of views, etc.

And so your point all fails concerning locusts and such, along with UFO's and Aliens in the Bible.



posted on Apr, 13 2006 @ 04:29 PM
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Vinci,

Prior to the mesopotamian flood, there were hardly any humans left. Most were either dead from pollution, disease, war, or had been literally eaten by the hybrids. The ecology was wacked. Plants wouldn't grow, diseases were rampant and the animal population had been tinkered with genetically, so extensively, that they were no longer edible. It says that the last days of planet earth will be a repeat of the days of Noah, during which the hybrid population exploded, humans were solyent green, and the planet could no longer sustain other food sources.

[edit on 13-4-2006 by undo]



posted on Apr, 13 2006 @ 04:34 PM
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And so even furthering my point, less means to of (back then) have John describe these as locust type creatures.



posted on Apr, 13 2006 @ 04:38 PM
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Vinci,

Not sure I'm following your thoughts on this. What exactly are you saying? Describe it a bit better, if you would be so kind?



posted on Apr, 13 2006 @ 04:46 PM
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It is impractical to assume John's thought of aliens is the same as ours. We think, grey, big eyes, looks scary. They might of thought, Small, no nose, no thumb.

What identifies aliens to us, is totally different than what John identified aliens with. And so if we try to identify metaphoric aliens, they're the ones that're not metaphors for aliens because John had a different "View" on them, or of them.

Also, he speaks of metallic birds in the sky, might these be ufos?


(Sarcasm doesn't travel well through text)

And you're probably going to question that so I'll just answer it here:

Ufo's were described as flaming discs by Moses, Aeroplanes have a much more bird shape, a tale/wings, UFO's tend to be disc-shaped.



posted on Apr, 13 2006 @ 04:55 PM
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Still not sure how we differ on the subject. Seems like we are saying similar things although you're attributing additional boundaries, such as the shape of the craft.



posted on Apr, 13 2006 @ 05:04 PM
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Okay, here:

Me: Hey John!
John: Hey whats up dude?
Me: I saw some weird things yesterday! They had big eyes, small heads, etc.
John: Oh locusts?
Me: No, Aliens!
John: Ohhh, Wanna go give a high-five to Jesus?
Me: Sure why not. Wanna go for a burger afterward?
John: Yeah-no. There aren't burgers in heaven.
Me: Excuse me?
John: They're too evil and stuff, y'know...number 2 reason people die or something.
Me: Oh, lovely. What about cigs?
John: Yeah, I think Jesus might have a pack.

(ahem) Anyway. That, versus this:

John: ANDREW ANDREW! I JUST SAW SOMETHING STRANGE! It had no nose! It looked like latex and it had no thumbs!
Me: You saw a pengiun or something?
John: No! I SAW AN ALIEN!
Me: Oh crap, get the gun!
John: naw, let's go for a burger
Me: K.



posted on Apr, 13 2006 @ 05:14 PM
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"Humor. A difficult concept. Not logical." - Lieutenant Saavik, Star Trek, The Wrath of Khan.


Anyway... If I'm interpreting you accurately, you are saying that John just described aliens the best he could? Which is not in disagreement with what I think about it, since I believe the angels are the aliens. The other angelic races are of various appearances. They are other creations of God. Some are from a different dimension. I believe that dimension is the Heaven of the bible, rather than the heaven of the bible. The heaven of the bible, is where the fallen angels reside exclusively. They are stuck, right along with us, in this physical dimension.

Personally, I believe greys may be androids or biological robots of some kind.

[edit on 13-4-2006 by undo]



posted on Apr, 13 2006 @ 05:16 PM
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Okay, nevermind, you're right, I'm just proving your point.



posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 12:48 AM
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Someone had mentioned chernobyl earlier it is in the Ukraine not Russia and yes both countries speak different languages.



posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 04:02 AM
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Different languages...

I know Russian and can understand Ukranian for the most part. They can understand me better.

But yeah, different languages.



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