Why do we think evolution can't acknowledge a Creator?

I don't get it. Really, evolution isn't about whether or not there is a creator or not. Evolution just simply explains that some lifeforms evolved from past lifeforms. That's it. Why is it so hard to understand that just because you may believe that 'evolution' exists doesn't mean that you don't believe it is possible a 'creator' existed? Now, i'm not saying a creator exists or it doesn't, that's left up to the individual to decide...however, evolution does exist and can scientifically be proven to exist. BUT, that has nothing to do with our origins. What you need to be arguing is the BIG BANG THEORY...not evolution. You seem to think the two go hand in hand. Atheism relates to the big bang theory.....evolution does not.

So, just because someone comes into a thread regarding 'creationism' and someone may make a few points on 'evolution' don't start going on a tangent of how they are completely off topic. Evolution has nothing to do with the creator. The Big Bang theory however does.

Thanks.

I edited my title as it wasn't appropriate.

[edit on 12-4-2006 by zenlover28]

[edit on 12-4-2006 by zenlover28]

Yep, as I have stated many times, only certain christian groups don't accept ToE, many do (e.g. the 10,000 clergy project)

I think you can split the christian opponents into two general groups (but of course with many variations);

a) those who have a literal belief in the bible - it's easy to see the problem here, their belief in the creation myth is seriously challenged by ToE and other associated evidence (geology, cosmology etc). This group can not ever accept ToE.

b) those who want to see the directing hand of god - I think this group see their god as benevolent, omnipotent etc and having an input into life on earth. They see the creation myth as allegory/story. Maybe they believe their god will become redundant in their lives, if they accept an undirected ToE. For example, if god just created the universe, then sat back, he would have no special interest in us, we are just another phenomenon of the universe. I guess this group will pray and believe that god can act on their prayers, they see humans as special creatures in his universe (i.e. he aimed to make us - we are the pinnacle of his creation).

I don't like categorising people, but I thought I would just add some of what I feel from discussions with many opponents of ToE.

[edit on 12-4-2006 by melatonin]

Well, you know I didn't even realize that the majority here thought that 'evolution' and 'atheism' go hand in hand, until recently. Now, don't get me wrong I have many problems with the entire 'creationism through a divine God' argument, but that's another issue entirely.

I'm just amazed at how many believe that just because you are an evolutionist that you are automatically categorized as an atheist. Blows me away. Really.

BTW, as far as the 'theory of evolution' goes...yes, they can argue that all day long as it can certainly be debated and challenged. However, evolution(micro)..the fact that lifeforms evolve really isn't an argument to be made. It happens. Science has observed and basically proved that it happens, the theories are about exactly how that process happens either by natural selection or whatever the theory.

[edit on 12-4-2006 by zenlover28]

[edit on 12-4-2006 by zenlover28]

hmmmmm..... I didn't realize that the 'ATS school of thought' was acceptance of evolution = atheism??

I'll have to venture into more forums I guess. Can you point me to any one forum in particular where this school of thought is most pronounced?

For me, I think Life is more complex than just evolution vs creationism. While the phrase "intelligent design" has it's own problems because of recent articles in the media, I tend to hold that within our tiny world there is both evolution as well as intelligent design.

But that is where I'm at today..... I reserve the right to change my mind upon receipt of more information!

Always,
Shawnna

LOL...Shawnna, yes we can all change our minds at any point in time...I do that quite often meself.

I was in a thread regarding the 'divinity of the creator' and I spoke of evolution while presuming there was a creator...and proceeded to be told that I was completely 'off topic'. I have also observed it in other threads.

Originally posted by zenlover28
Well, you know I didn't even realize that the majority here thought that 'evolution' and 'atheism' go hand in hand, until recently. Now, don't get me wrong I have many problems with the entire 'creationism through a divine God' argument, but that's another issue entirely.

I think almost all athiests do accept ToE. But this is where the problem lies, in the minds of some...

All athiests are 'evolutionists', therefore all 'evolutionists' are athiests. Simply poor logical thinking.

Edit: there is even a recent study that suggests athiests may be america's most distrusted minority...

athiests are bad, mmkay

Which is surprising, in europe it's a well-respected position.

[edit on 12-4-2006 by melatonin]

I really should have said 'majority of creationists' in that posts. But, yes melatonin, I think that is perhaps why atheism and evolution seem to go hand in hand in many creationists minds. It really does show the lack of our education system to properly educate people on the topic.

Which is why I very much agree with 'evolution' being taught in schools. Creationists feel threatened by this, but I don't understand why???? It has nothing to do with attempting to discredit their God.

Originally posted by zenlover28
Which is why I very much agree with 'evolution' being taught in schools. Creationists feel threatened by this, but I don't understand why???? It has nothing to do with attempting to discredit their God.

But it does discredit the belief of strict YEC literalists, even though this is not its aim. Cognitive dissonance creates a painful negative emotion, they must either accept it, ignore it, or fight it.

Considering ToE has been related to the collapse of morality, creation of nazism, communism etc etc (i.e. 'evilutionists') - Many will fight this misperceived evil.

[edit on 12-4-2006 by melatonin]

Well, exactly my point. These issues really need to be addressed in schools. If people really had a grasp on the scientific world and understood science perhaps these arguments would be settled.

I'm trying not to tramp on anyone's beliefs here, so we'll just leave it at that.

Evolution means evolving from something else. Some who take the Bible literally believe that can't happen, because since God created zebras, etc, they did not evolve. Even "age" is built in by God some fundamentalists say. Whew, God sure was busy! Now, my husband, who has read the Bible, disagrees and says, yes, you can have evolution; you can believe in both, because once God set the universe in motion it evolved and still is.
Since my concept of God is not some Supreme Toymaker in heaven, cranking out things, I also see no contradiction with Big Bang Theory and belief in God. "God" is a part of the Universe and beyond the Universe.

Oh me. Like I said, our education system really needs to emphasize science a wee bit more. And, I apparently just need to shut up because i've been doing searches on here and well, i've just come to the realization that people are going to believe what they want to believe no matter what is laid out in front of them. I really was confused when I first started reading in the forum with all of the different ideals and beliefs being thrown around like they are facts. Like I said earlier, blows me away. Really. I thought this place was to deny ignorance?

Anyhow, Desert, I find it fascinating that you believe in both the Big Bang theory and God though. This really is intriguing. Do you believe God created the Bang or vice versa?

To Zenlover28. As I was taught, "God" always was and always will be, so, yes, God was before the "Bang". I suppose if one were to believe that man created God, then, hmmmm, it would also follow that the Bang produced God. I should rather think that God was before the Bang, as man tends to create too many gods.
Now, re education--there is so much good science out there. (I tend towards reading nuclear physics.) But I have met educated, intelligent people who truly believe in creationism, because of a religious belief. To them, the Bible is the final word on everything; it has to be, because God said so! I hope they do not believe out of fear, perhaps fear of offending or being condemned by God or others. By not realizing the history of origin of their creation myth, they deny today's beautiful, evolving explanation. The truth shall set one free!

I really have no problem with what anyone believes, Desert. It's more of what they back their beliefs up with that amazes me. Besides, Science can't rule out that there was a creator and I have my own personal beliefs about that. I guess, some of the reasoning behind some of these beliefs just don't add up...in my head anyway.

Now, for instance...and i'm not nitpicking..i'm just using this as an example. Your definition of evolution that you shared with me.....see that's not really what evolution is about. Evolution just means changes over a period of time in a population...and it influences many different sciences. Now, the theory of evolution would be more of what you spoke of. I think a lot of people confuse Darwinism with Evolution and it's simply not the same thing. This is what I mean by a lack of education on the topic.

Anyhow, shutting up now. I think it would be in my best interest just to read in here because it's really not my intent to take away from anyone's beliefs as I try my hardest to respect them all.

And your beliefs I respect as well, even though I don't understand why you believe that way...I respect it.

Have a GREAT day!

To Zenlover28. Ah, yes, little e and big E. True, in that evolution is changes in a population over time, many generations. Big E describes how this could come about, genetic mutation and natural selection. My saying "evolving from something else" conjures up thoughts of turtles changing into gorillas; I should have put it, evolving to a more complex or higher functioning organism. The Creationists I know believe literally in the Biblical creation myth, setting the 6000 year timeline. What is here now was put here, as is, 6000 years ago, no big or little e.
Thank You for your thoughts!

Yes, I understand the Young Earthers take the Bible literally..word for word. And their method of backing up their claims...well, like I said...complete failure of our school systems to properly educate people in Science.

BTW, this brings up a Bible Verse...what is it...something in Matthew regarding the tree that doesn't bear fruit will get chopped down. I wonder why they don't take that literally? I'll look up the verse and post it in its entirety. It may have already been posted here, but i'll post it again anyway.

Edited to add verse: The New Testament Reading: Matthew 3:1-12

In those days John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness of Judea , proclaiming, 2‘Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.’ a 3This is the one of whom the prophet Isaiah spoke when he said, ‘The voice of one crying out in the wilderness: “Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.”’ 4Now John wore clothing of camel’s hair with a leather belt around his waist, and his food was locusts and wild honey. 5Then the people of Jerusalem and all Judea were going out to him, and all the region along the Jordan, 6and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.

7 But when he saw many Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, ‘You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8Bear fruit worthy of repentance. 9Do not presume to say to yourselves, “We have Abraham as our ancestor”; for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children to Abraham. 10Even now the ax is lying at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 11‘I baptize you with water for repentance, but one who is more powerful than I is coming after me; I am not worthy to carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. b c 12His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and will gather his wheat into the granary; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.’

Here is the link I found it on: oldfirst.org...



[edit on 13-4-2006 by zenlover28]

To Zenlover28. In my town, there are churches that preach Young Earth and expect their children to believe and follow that idea. The children then go to school where science is taught properly, but they already have a mindset that there is no evolution (yes, perhaps it is big E, but they tune out to even little e). Perhaps the churches need to study science to understand what is meant by evolution. Perhaps science teachers need to communicate better re evolution. Still, though, like I said, I know college educated people who accept Young Earth as fact. There is another Bible verse about thinking like a child and thinking like a man (grown up). Ah, spiritual evolution, growing more complex thinking spiritually?

Well, you know what, desertrat, there are people like that everywhere. And, I don't guess we can change them. BUT, society can change it!!! And that's why it is very important for Science to be emphasized in schools more. We've got to open these minds up!!!! Great potential in there! Wouldn't you agree?

BTW, college education does not equal scientific knowledge.

Oh, zenlnover28, so true! Here is something equally disturbing to me. The local junior high schools, because of low state nclb scores are getting rid of history classes (only 10% of score) to concentrate on math and english! Now they won't even known history of science.
Science can never give a proof of "God", was not intended to, but it sure can open people's minds and senses to beauty and awe of the Universe. Science is always evolving, accepting new theories as old ones are proven false. But, I ramble...

See that is something that really bothers me about our school system. More emphasis on math and science I could agree with, but English? My freshman year of high school Kentucky went to a system called a KERA portfolio. Basically it consisted of endless hours of reading books and writing papers each year in order to graduate. It's useless. I learned it all in middle school and it was just so repetitive. But, anyhow that is where the main emphasis of Kentucky schools are right now..on English.

Us rednecks can sure write awful well down here in these parts.

A lot of scientists view God as the Great Clock Winder. He wound up the Clock and just lets it tick by. He'll only step in once the Great Alarm goes off and it's time to call this Earth Project finished.

The stupidest thing God could do is offer physical proof of His existence. If we KNEW that He exists, then our choice would be given to us, and we would not have the chance to exercie our independent agency. Sure, I guess you could choose to reject God even if you knew absolutely that He existed and you'd go to hell if you didn't, but that would be stupid.

Of course, you would have to debate your opinion on what you think God's purpose for creating the Earth is or why He decided to create such vile little critters such as ourselves. But that's for another thread.