This thread is aimed mainly at point, but all are welcome to reply also

Point,

Since you don't want to answer the question in your other thread about the divine or not divine nature of a creator; I'll ask you here, why do you feel there MUST be a creator? I'm really curious, what is it that is making you think such a thing?


Mod Edit: title

[edit on 12-4-2006 by kinglizard]

One of many that show we were created is the balance of nature. Our creator(s) are mentioned in the oldest of texts.

One part of many on the balance of nature - animals cannot live without plants and plants cannot live without animals. Without one, the balance becomes off enough where the other will die. THey must have been done under a planned action.

Also, look at the dinosaurs. How could some of them have evolved into such HUGE beasts? Not to mension, that there are not any fossils that show the evolution of, say for example, a brontosourus.

Another of MANY in my belief - where did the banana come from? Look at how they grow.

Another - if we evolved, it MAY be excepted that we 'developed' an eye to detect light, but to develop 2 so we could have depth perception? Not logical to me.

However, my input is futile. This battle will continue forever and no one will ever be victorious. none of us were there to see it with our own eyes so it doesn't matter what I or anyone say here.

One of many that show we were created is the balance of nature. Our creator(s) are mentioned in the oldest of texts.

Yes in the OLDEST text's, these same creators also created a flat earth and threw lightning when angered. I'm not sure if using man made mythologies really helps the case for a creator.

One part of many on the balance of nature - animals cannot live without plants and plants cannot live without animals. Without one, the balance becomes off enough where the other will die. THey must have been done under a planned action.

Why must it be so under planned action? That make's no sense at all to me and completly disregards evolution, biology etc etc.

Also, look at the dinosaurs. How could some of them have evolved into such HUGE beasts? Not to mension, that there are not any fossils that show the evolution of, say for example, a brontosourus.

There's tons of transitionary fossil's. Of course there's not all showing step by step by step by step ad infinitum. Fossils form under certain condition's, not at the whim's of those who demand it.

Another of MANY in my belief - where did the banana come from? Look at how they grow.

If I'm not mistaken, the modern banana that we eat today was created by man through vegatative sprouting or something of the sorts. Kinda like primitive GM.

Another - if we evolved, it MAY be excepted that we 'developed' an eye to detect light, but to develop 2 so we could have depth perception? Not logical to me.

Evolution of the eye has already been shown, but regardless.. why is it not logical? Depth perception allows for greater chances of survival. There's nothing indicative that two eye's can't come about naturally. Most insects have more then two eyes, talk about illogical!

However, my input is futile. This battle will continue forever and no one will ever be victorious. none of us were there to see it with our own eyes so it doesn't matter what I or anyone say here.

True in a sense, but it does matter so as to help some of us understand where your kind are comming from and possibly dispell some of the misunderstanding's. I know I did a rather crappy job in this post but eh, w.e.

We're such puny little creatures. Doesn't matter if we're able to track our beginnings back to dust on some distant star. That distant star would need to be tracked back to its origins. Then those origins would need to be tracked back. And so, back and back and back. Assuming of course that these things were linear. Doesn't matter if the Big Bang or Strings or whatever are agreed upon. What lies behind those?

Put your hands out into thin air. Are you able to create something tangible from that thin air? In fact, starting with thin air would not be starting from scratch; you'd be getting a head start if you had 'thin air' to work with. Can you imagine a nothingness so absolute that not even air existed ... no light, no darkness, no sound, nothing tangible, nothing invisible, not even 'nothing' ?

The Big Bang? The big bang of what? What was there to bang? Where did it come from? Ok. Trace that stuff back. Now where did *that* stuff originate? If you find where it originated, let's call it 'P'. Where did 'P' originate? Call it's origins 'S'. Where did 'S' originate, etc.?

Doesn't matter how far back we go; each step backwards had to originate somewhere, or in something, whether energy or matter. Even if it turns out that it's all a cycle; in effect a re-cycling: at its furthermost reaches there requires to be the one dot of energy or matter that kicked it all off. Where did that dot originate?

How can there NOT be a creator? Although for the sake of argument, you can call that creator 'dot' if you prefer.

How can there NOT be a creator? Although for the sake of argument, you can call that creator 'dot' if you prefer.

And using your argument against you, where did THAT 'dot' come from?

"each step backwards had to originate somewhere"

Because people wish to believe that there is purpose to their existence; that they were put here for a reason. However, it is this same sense of purpose that confines you to be what you believe you are suppose to be. When you realize that you are nothing, it opens up the possibilities to be anything, it opens up the possibility of true freedom.

I absolutely KNOW there is a God...why...

...because I have felt him in my life...and...this is a big and.....

I stopped breathing in the ICU 2 months ago and went to heaven....yes the bright light deal....He spoke to me and said I could stay in heaven or return. It was the biggest blessing in my life and has forever changed me.

I'm sorry to hear about that. Glad you made it through though.

That being said, has it not been 'proven' to those of other 'faiths' that thier God(s) were also the one and only true one(s) through similar means? Do we dismiss similar cases for disimilar beliefs because of your experience?

Originally posted by Prot0n
I'm sorry to hear about that. Glad you made it through though.

Thank you ProtOn.

Originally posted by Prot0n
That being said, has it not been 'proven' to those of other 'faiths' that thier God(s) were also the one and only true one(s) through similar means? Do we dismiss similar cases for disimilar beliefs because of your experience?

I guess that is up to the individual to decide. All I can say is that there is a God, life continues after death, there is most definitely a heaven and I was welcomed there through my faith in Jesus Christ.

Blessings.....

Nothing against the theory and/or proof of evolution or creation or possibly scientific testing by another speicies. But people constantly feel a need to improve themsleves and become "better" inside and out. So they feel a need psychology and collectively to have a "God" or to worship "this" or "that", weither it be the next "American Idol" or Written works by unknown authors written years ago, to stories the more indigineous cultures use to muse over in the Americas and across the world over. No offence to all readers; just my boring opinion.

Personally, I believe in all 3 possiblities. I have nothing against any religion or belief as long as no one is intentionally hurt for any selfish reasons, including the group. I'm not going to eleborate.

Proton: that was my point. At the back of it all, must lie something/someone, no matter how unexpected, obvious-in-hindsight, shocking, terrifying, amusing .. whatever. To discover the ultimate source of all, may require the investigator to go through groups of 'dots' or several overseers or even several thousand. But ultimately, *some*-thing/one holds the position of 'the buck stops here'.

The journey and destination may prove laughable: we may discover we literally *are* pond-life within a universe within a universe within .... etc.

My grandfather, when he was young, apparently speculated that we may be nothing more grand than the imaginings of a bug flying through space. His speculations have stood the test of time: these days many suspect our lives may be an illusion; self-generated or externally imposed.

Sometimes it pays to turn it upside down to see what falls out. It occurred to me several years ago, that what we consider our dream-life may in fact be the reality. If so, it is our 'real' life that is the dream. And there's no certainty that either exists in matter, despite appearances.

A self-proclaimed schizophrenic I used to chat with online a few years ago stated one night that we are god's brain cells. It had the ring of truth. We all seem to be connected: we can affect each other via mental means: mass hysteria seems to be a proven fact (one which the NWO appears to be attempting to utilize in order to fast-track bird-flu): we can affect each other for good or ill over long distances: we can pick up other's thoughts, dreams, etc. So it may be that far from being a mass of separate individuals, as we believe, we may instead be a colony, similar to a jelly fish or branch of coral. The entire six billion of us may be nothing more than bacteria in god's gut or comprising a miniscule fleck of plaque on god's tooth.

Or ..... we may be merely debris, unimportant remnants of a larger enterprise. For example, we may be the result of a fleck of dandruff from the head of something. That fleck may have be blown by solar winds to earth, or may have been dropped while the host detoured to our own or a nearby planet, in order to go to the toilet. The host moved on, never dreaming that debris from his head (or feces) would result in creatures (calling themselves 'mankind') which would eventually develop to believe they have a role in the big-picture ... and hold a personal relationship with the host.

Originally posted by bookfighter767 I have nothing against any religion or belief as long as no one is intentionally hurt for any selfish reasons, including the group. I'm not going to eleborate.

That's what I find most important when thinking about a religon( or anything in general), as long as ther individual isn't commiting a violence towards themselves or others, then everything is fine. Unfortunately, most religons aren't like this and the fact that most don't even understand the nature of violence is a dead giveaway.

"...what is it that is making you think such a thing?"

Hmmm, I had religious training starting a age six, so maybe that is where I got my idea of "God". Now, I'll bet some of my fellow 6-year-olds went on later in Life to not believe in a God, whereas I kept a belief. By age seven, though, I could not believe in the "God sitting in Heaven all day upon clouds with angels singing all the time and playing harps, all behind pearly gates"--how boring! For years after I read books on Zen Buddhism and put much thought into idea of God. By teen age years, I was examining different religions and developing sense of connectedness to fellow human beings, love for all, and doing for others. College--political action took over, but world view widened and so did "sense of God". Further stages in Life--call it Divine Guidance, coincidences, personal miracles, many cosmic jokes, whatever, the idea of God/Spirit/Life is the forever blooming flower and I the stem rooted in God/Spirit/Life.

Proton: that was my point. At the back of it all, must lie something/someone, no matter how unexpected, obvious-in-hindsight, shocking, terrifying, amusing .. whatever. To discover the ultimate source of all, may require the investigator to go through groups of 'dots' or several overseers or even several thousand. But ultimately, *some*-thing/one holds the position of 'the buck stops here'.

Agreed, sort of. But what is there to indicate that something must have been intelligent and must have done what it did in our behalf?

The journey and destination may prove laughable: we may discover we literally *are* pond-life within a universe within a universe within .... etc.

Could be, but untill there's some sort of evidence suggesting this I wouldn't hold fast to the idea as other's have.

My grandfather, when he was young, apparently speculated that we may be nothing more grand than the imaginings of a bug flying through space. His speculations have stood the test of time: these days many suspect our lives may be an illusion; self-generated or externally imposed.

Another idea I wouldn't hold fast to till there's more evidence in support of it. Most of those sort of idea's appear to be mainly philosophical to me.

Sometimes it pays to turn it upside down to see what falls out. It occurred to me several years ago, that what we consider our dream-life may in fact be the reality. If so, it is our 'real' life that is the dream. And there's no certainty that either exists in matter, despite appearances.

Religion, any religion really, has always been the foremost widely held belief. Scienctific discoveries are essentially turning it upside down. It's kind of funny, your not the first to mention something like this in regards to those sort of belief systems. Modern science is technically a recent development in human history. It's those holding on to the 'old belief systems' that are denying the evidence at hand.

I won't quote the rest as it's all the same basic idea and mostly philosophical. There's nothing to indicate that this would even be possible and given what we know as of now, I find it highly improbable to be true.

Ok short & sweet my answer will be! Just take a look around! How Beautiful & Perfect, Absolutely Perfect Everything Is!

Spend One day outside, and one day Looking Up! Another Looking at the Ocean! Another, at the Mountains, Another, at the Perfection of The Human Body, Another, at all the Animals & Fish -

Then Another Day Sit still and Ask God to Reveal Himself to you with a True Heart! That is Why I Know Their is A Creator the Great I AM !

Originally posted by kinglizard
I absolutely KNOW there is a God...why...

...because I have felt him in my life...and...this is a big and.....

I stopped breathing in the ICU 2 months ago and went to heaven....yes the bright light deal....He spoke to me and said I could stay in heaven or return. It was the biggest blessing in my life and has forever changed me.

We, you and I can state this as a real-ity, but it is too much for words to express or 'prove'..
How can one describe how TOTAL and perfectly running the universe?
I was given missions, the main one is to spread the word of unconditional love and how important one's karma is..
But, it is like beating a dead horse, when one could TRY and see the otherside as a really giant mainframe with the most expert geeks available.
How far we have come in 50 years is a grain of sand compared with how long these loving entities have been keeping records..peace

Ok short & sweet my answer will be! Just take a look around! How Beautiful & Perfect, Absolutely Perfect Everything Is!

Perhaps it just appears this way to you? Spend a day in Iraq. Spend a day living under an opressive government. Spend a day without food, electricity, clean water, clean clothes. Spend a day living in a third world country. Spend a short time on a hijacked plane destined to meet it's doom.

Then tell me the world is beautiful and perfect.

Originally posted by Prot0n
Spend a day in Iraq. Spend a day living under an opressive government. Spend a day without food, electricity, clean water, clean clothes. Spend a day living in a third world country. Spend a short time on a hijacked plane destined to meet it's doom.

Then tell me the world is beautiful and perfect.

Yes...many men are far from "beautiful and perfect" though I believe member AngelWings is talking about nature, animals...the symbiotic relationships all around us...the movement of the earth and stars....you know the beauty in the fabric of existence.

Oh, so true, ProTon. There is much ugliness in the world, but, remember, most of what you have written is man made. And then there are the "acts of God" in insurance policies! To live under ugly conditions and still have faith in yourself, others, and God is amazing. There are people that do so. I am so humbled by people who help others in situations of ugliness.

Very True ProtOn
But I was talking about the Creation, not all the destruction we see! I know how sad that all is, so very sad! But you asked why do you feel there Must be a Creator?
So I gave you why I feel and Know their is! But seeing destruction, how greatly sorrowful it is, like 9/11 or Katrina, Iraq, etc as well, my heart aches for all the loss, but it does not have me waver in my belief at all!