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Why can't we respect the Military even If we Disagree with them!

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posted on Apr, 11 2006 @ 07:42 AM
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This thread isn't meant to offend anyone, but to raise a question about what we discuss on this fourm!

We seen countless threads about ideas on how to get in to Secret bases! I've lost count of how many I've seen about rediculas ways to get into Area 51! I've seen t.s about all the bad things they do! Sure our government here in the US has flaws (which government doesn't?)! Yes the Military hides too many things (again, which government doesn't?)! However, America, for all it's flaws and corruption does a lot of good in this world. We have help free people the world over from Evil Tyrants and Genocidal Madmen time and again. We provide disaster relief and feed stariving children around the world.

Yes, our military has done some bad things that All Americans are ashamed of, but don't forget all the good they do as well! We are still a symbol of Freedom the world over!

Folks, I'm not asking you to love US foreign Policy (It makes me sick sometimes). However, is it too much to ask that people have some resect for the US military and not look at it as some slimy three-.ed monster that needs to be torn up? Can we talk about something besides sneaking in Area 51, harrassing Cammo Dudes with crazy gadgets and huge mob invasions of local government facilities! I see nothing constructive in these topics, and they are becoming a cheap shot at all thoes who serve in the US Armed Forces!

Please Remember the US has an All volunteer military. The Military men and women (including the infamaous "Cammo Dudes" of Area 51) are family men and women. When they go home at night, they hug their spouse, and play with their kids like the rest of us. They put on that uniform because they feel proud of what America is and what it can be!

Is it so much to ask people to give these brave citizens enough respect not to talk down about them, or look for creative ways to make their already tough jobs even harder?

Tim

[edit on 11-4-2006 by ghost]




posted on Apr, 11 2006 @ 08:52 AM
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posted by ghost: “This thread isn't meant to offend anyone . . to raise a question about what we discuss on this forum! . . our government . . the US has flaws! Yes the Military hides too many things! . . America, for all it's flaws and corruption does a lot of good in this world. [Edited by Don W]


So Al Capone was kind to his mother? So what’s that got to do with those things that are wrong? Just because my government may be “better” than the one in Uganda does not mean I’m ready to excuse them for wrong-doing here. Don’t mix your metaphors, Mr Ghost.


We have helped to free people the world over from Evil Tyrants and Genocidal Madmen time and again. We provide disaster relief and feed starving children around the world. Yes, our military has done some bad things that All Americans are ashamed of, but don't forget all the good they do as well! We are still a symbol of Freedom the world over!


Uh, Mr Ghost, have you read about these places?
1. Darfur.
2. Rawanda.
3. Uganda, Idi Amin.
4. Iraq, Saddam Hussein until 1990.
5. Argentina
6. China in Tibet
7. Armenians in Turkey
8. Sierra Leone
9. East Timor
10. Christian Children’s Fund says 27,000 children die every day from malnutrition and diseases exacerbated by poor diet. (This list is not meant to be exhaustive, but mrely to be representative.)

I’m assuming you are a young person Mr Ghost. Why don’t you go to Google and look up “US military interventions” to see a list beginning in 1803 and running to Granada and Panama? About 60 or so. Not to mention Iraq. What purpose do you think the USMC performs for America? For a hint, It was not created to guard the Unknown Soldiers tomb.

Iran a problem? You should look up Mohammad Mosedegh of Iran to learn how the US intervened there and imposed the Shah on the Iranians and how we invented the SAVAK to sustain him. Sort of an anglicized Gestapo.

Or look into Chile and the assassination of a democratically elected President Salvador Allende, MD, shot on 9/11/1973. Say thank you Richard Nixon and CIA.

Or look up the 1982 assassination in Guatemala of Br. James Miller, Catholic Order of La Salle, and Nobel Peace price winner, who was shot to death by the American armed and trained Guatemalan Army. Say thank you, Ronald Reagan and the CIA. Why, pray tell, does Guatemala need an army anyway. Or Nicaragua? Or Costa Rico? Honduras? Panama?

Finally, look up Haiti, a country the USMC occupied from 1919 to 1933. And it is still the poorest country in the Western Hemisphere. Why is that? Well this is enough. I hope.

The American Armed Forces do not make policy. They are not asked when to conduct warfare. As a matter of fact, we are gradually leaning how the Oberfuhrer (Rumsfeld), VP Cheney and Geo W himself have constantly overruled good advice given by our military commanders. It is politicians who wrap themselves in the flag. Not the Armed Forces. And it is politicians who try so hard to make you (and me) equate criticism of their policies as somehow being unpatriotic and unsupportive of the armed forces.

Trash and lies.


[edit on 4/11/2006 by donwhite]


JAK

posted on Apr, 11 2006 @ 09:11 AM
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I too think you're missing the point here Ghost.

Talk about what lies at Area 51 and possible ways of finding out is usually based on speculation that the US is keeping secret some evidence of extraterrestrial life as opposed to 'just' housing black projects. The discovery of such would be one of the most profound in history and many believe that the US would have no right at all to keep such a thing secret from the rest of mankind.

I don't think it has anything whatsoever to do with American foriegn policy. If this is actually about Area 51 I don't see any argument here at all. It seems inevitable to me that speculation (based on the ET perspective, not just military black projects) would lead to coffee table talk about how access could be gained.

If on the other hand you are using this to comment on a desired unquestioning respect for and faith in your countrymen's/government's actions and/or intents I'd take a look here.

Jak

[edit on 11/4/06 by JAK]



posted on Apr, 11 2006 @ 09:35 AM
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Originally posted by ghostPlease Remember the US has an All volunteer military. The Military men and women (including the infamaous "Cammo Dudes" of Area 51) are family men and women. When they go home at night, they hug their spouse, and play with their kids like the rest of us. They put on that uniform because they feel proud of what America is and what it can be!


[edit on 11-4-2006 by ghost]


Ghost,
You did make some valid points, but when you say the "cammo dudes" are military, It shows your research was sorely lacking even if your major premise had merit.

The "camo dudes" are a private security company, not military, though they may have served in the military at one time.



posted on Apr, 11 2006 @ 09:58 AM
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Originally posted by whaaa
Ghost,
You did make some valid points, but when you say the "cammo dudes" are military, It shows your research was sorely lacking even if your major premise had merit.

The "camo dudes" are a private security company, not military, though they may have served in the military at one time.


I made a mistake, and you caught it! Nellis Range general security is military, Air Force Military Police to be exact!

You do know that the Private Security Company is a front, don't you? A while back we did research on this during the Groom Lake Research Project! The data suggests that the Camo Dudes are most likely NSA or CIA Paramilitary units. Some of them are former military personnel now filling civil service as civilian employees for NSA.

These people may be civil service, but they still help defend America!

Sorry about the mistake! I'm not perfect!

Tim



posted on Apr, 11 2006 @ 10:37 AM
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Actually, the Security Force at Groom Lake is a mixture of Air Force and contractor personnel. Glenn Campbell obtained a copy of one of their handbooks (DET 3 SP JOB KNOWLEDGE) back in 1995. It had a copy of their organizational chart.

I think ghost's original point is that the "Cammo Dudes" put their pants on one leg at a time, just like everybody else. They are doing their job to protect assets that support national security. It is rude and pointless to harass them. Storming the border of the Nellis Range wont unlock the secrets of Area 51.



posted on Apr, 11 2006 @ 11:29 AM
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Originally posted by Shadowhawk
I think ghost\'s original point is that the \"Cammo Dudes\" put their pants on one leg at a time, just like everybody else. They are doing their job to protect assets that support national security. It is rude and pointless to harass them.


Thank you Shadowhawk! Finally, someone got my point!

Who cares who in the hell signs their checks on Friday! They are regular Americans, with families to feed. They do their jobs, and then go home to their families like everyone else. Their job just happens to be guarding a Secret Defense Department facility out in the Nevada Desert! What they do is part of defending America and it's citizens!

The job is hard enough without a bunch of conspiricy fanatics inventing "New" and "Creative" ways to harrass them and make security harder!

GET THE POINT YET?

You don't need to Love and Worship US foreign policies! Just have the decency to let people do their jobs without be harrassed!


Tim

[edit on 11-4-2006 by ghost]



posted on Apr, 11 2006 @ 11:33 AM
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I can only respect them to a certain point, as they still go out and kill people and commit numerous abuses, and you certinyl aren`t the symol of freedom throughout the world, sorry to dipel the myth but you are more the symbol of oppresion these days, its a shame.



posted on Apr, 11 2006 @ 12:22 PM
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posted by Peruvianmonk: “I can only respect them to a certain point, as they still go out and kill people and commit numerous abuses, and you [United States] certainly haven’t been the symbol of freedom throughout the world, sorry to dispel the myth but you are more the symbol of oppression these days, it’s a shame. [Edited by Don w]


Yes, P/M, it is a tragedy of humongous proportions and has created ripples around the world that have not yet stopped. OTOH, P/M, I’m not meaning to be an America Basher but it is worthy to recall some history.

GW’s ambition was to subdue the continent to the Mississippi. By TJs first term, his vision was to extend our domain - look up domain - from sea to shining sea as one of our marching songs puts it, from the Atlantic to the Pacific. And he did. By the first Harrison’s time, it was “54 40 or Fight!” alluding to the US-Canada’s northwest borders.

By the time of Polk, we were ready for the biggest land grab in the history of North America - excluding Native American claims of course. We “annexed” Texas, and plainly put, we took New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, Nevada, California and part of Colorado from Mexico. Later, we bought the Gadsden Purchase from Mexico for the Southern Pacific RR. We violated the 1848 Treaty with Mexico in which we agreed to recognize prior land grants. As the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians today, so we ran any “troublesome” Mexican out of the country. And took his land. It does not end there, P/M, but I suppose you get the point.

America has always espoused altruistic aspirations but we have rarely performed equal to those. I offer WW2 as the best and closest example of both knowing right and doing right.

[edit on 4/11/2006 by donwhite]



posted on Apr, 11 2006 @ 04:19 PM
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posted by Peruvianmonk: “I can only respect them to a certain point and you [United States] certainly haven’t been the symbol of freedom throughout the world. Sorry to dispel the myth but you [United States] are more the symbol of oppression these days, it’s a shame. [Edited by Don W]


PeruMonk, for the best read on the good, the bad and the ugly of America, I suggest this new book, “Leonard Wood: Rough Rider, Surgeon, Architect of American Imperialism” by Jack McCallum. The whole panorama of America growing into a world power will pass before you. McCallum argues that Leonard Wood was one of the most fascinating but least remembered figures in modern American history. McCallum uses photographs, correspondence and diaries to chronicle the life of the Major General who served as the U.S. Army Chief of Staff and the commander of the Rough Riders in the Spanish-American War and the U. S. in Cuba. The author details Leonard Wood's friendship with Theodore Roosevelt, as well as Wood's 1920 presidential campaign.

Try it, you’ll like it.



posted on Apr, 12 2006 @ 01:43 AM
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Support our Troops! God Bless America!



posted on Apr, 12 2006 @ 01:57 AM
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Mr White, thank you for bringing some historical perspective. I actually just voted you way above - my first time of doing that - I was so surprised.

And I have to agree with the other poster who said that the US is viewed as an oppressor by the rest of the world. Too many in the US believe its own PR and I think Ghost is one of them.

DW, have you checked out "War Is A Racket" by Brigadier-General Smedley D Butler? I think you'd like it. I shall be looking up the references you cited earlier.

Thanks.



posted on Apr, 12 2006 @ 09:37 AM
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Originally posted by rich23
And I have to agree with the other poster who said that the US is viewed as an oppressor by the rest of the world. Too many in the US believe its own PR and I think Ghost is one of them.


If PR is short for President, you would be wrong!

Bush is a liar, a cheat, and an embarrisment to the Ideals America was built on! Presonally, I despise Bush and his entire administration! I'm glad I never voted for him, but it's a shame that he became a president!


I never said the US is perfect, we are far from it! However, we are blessed with many freedoms that are rare in other places around the world. We are allowed to openly say when we feel our Government is wrong, or we can protest the bad things our leaders do without fear of being put in prison!

It our military and the people who work in defense that keep this freedom around for us! The Cammo dudes might be contractors(so what), the work they do still plays a role in maintaining the Freedoms and Rights we enjoy here in America!

All I'm saying is, Don't take you disgust with US foreign Policies on the little guys at the bottom who help portect America's Freedoms! They don't make the rules, they just play by them like the rest of us! Save it for the Arrogant, Self-conceited, Assholes who make the policies!


Trying to convince people not to go after the little guy at the bottom, Who has NO say in the policies of the US Government, is getting tiresom! For god sakes, when will you people Get it????


Is this really so hard for the world to get? HUH?


Tim



posted on Apr, 19 2006 @ 12:46 PM
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Actually, PR in that instance meant Public Relations. There are many people who despise GWB who still fall for the myth that the US is a benevolent power. Its quest for economic dominance and its ideological insistence that other countries cannot be allowed to pursue their own economic interests has driven policy for the last century.



However, we are blessed with many freedoms that are rare in other places around the world.

And in fact, US policy is to deny people those freedoms that you consider yourself to have. The ability to elect one's own government without interference, for example. The freedom to live without fear of death squads, for another...

For a refreshing historical perspective, I suggest you read Mark Twain on the subjugation of the Philippines. The parallels with contemporary rhetoric are really quite striking.

MT did also found the Anti-Imperial Society. Good for him, I say.


[edit on 19-4-2006 by rich23]



posted on Apr, 19 2006 @ 04:27 PM
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posted by Rich23: "DW, have you checked out "War Is A Racket" by BG Smedley D Butler? I think you'd like it. I shall be looking up the references you cited earlier. Thanks.


No, I have not, R23, but I will do so. I usually go to the library 1 time a month. They claim they have books by mail, maybe I’ll check that out. Thanks for the title.


posted by ghost


posted by rich23: “I have to agree Too many in the US believe its own PR and I think Ghost is one of them. [Edited by Don W]


I never said the US is perfect . . However, we are blessed with many freedoms that are rare in other places around the world. . . our military and the people who work in defense keep this freedom around for us! The Camo dudes might be contractors, the work they do still plays a role in maintaining the Freedoms and Rights we enjoy here in America! Don't take your disgust with US foreign Policies out on the little guys at the bottom They don't make the rules, HUH? Tim [Edited by Don W]


I have a slight problem, Mr Ghost, with mercenary soldiers as in the all volunteer armed forces. What with facts on the ground limited by “need to know” and our army being subject to propaganda 24/7, when the privatized soldiers of fortune are faced with putting down a revolt in Kansas City or letting it go, I’m worried their loyalty might be to the paymaster. I’m thinking worse case scenario.



posted on Apr, 19 2006 @ 10:16 PM
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I´m sure there are alot of soldiers in Iraq right now who disagree with what is going on but can´t do anything about it. A British doctor was recently sent to jail becasu he would not fight becasue the war was illegal and immoral. An SAS soldier also refused to fight with American soldiers becasue of their immoral actions!



posted on Apr, 20 2006 @ 06:27 AM
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Originally posted by donwhite
I have a slight problem, Mr Ghost, with mercenary soldiers as in the all volunteer armed forces.


Right now, this statement is a bit misleading to a degree! Most of the people in the military today are either long time "carrier soildures " or people who sign up immediatly after 9/11! Also, there is the issue of the unofficial "Back Door" Draft!

In case you aren't familiar with a back door draft, it is a policy that allows the Defense Department to extend the enlistments of soldiers to maintain combat strength forces. Some people who completed their service obligations were told that they couldn't be discharged because of the need for soldiures. Aslo many reserve and National Guard units are being called to active duity. I have a good friend named Charles who this happened to. He was retired from the National Guard for a few years, and they recalled him to active dutiy!

Don't be fooled, things aren't always what they appear to be!

Tim



posted on Apr, 28 2006 @ 04:15 PM
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Originally posted by ghost

Originally posted by donwhite
I have a slight problem, Mr Ghost, with mercenary soldiers as in the all volunteer armed forces.


Right now, this statement is a bit misleading to a degree! Most of the people in the military today are either long time "carrier soildures " or people who sign up immediatly after 9/11! Also, there is the issue of the unofficial "Back Door" Draft!

In case you aren't familiar with a back door draft, it is a policy that allows the Defense Department to extend the enlistments of soldiers to maintain combat strength forces. Some people who completed their service obligations were told that they couldn't be discharged because of the need for soldiures. Aslo many reserve and National Guard units are being called to active duity. I have a good friend named Charles who this happened to. He was retired from the National Guard for a few years, and they recalled him to active dutiy!

Don't be fooled, things aren't always what they appear to be!

Tim


i agree. And not so sound anti-patriotic but i dont like the people that join right after an event like that. If you love your country so much you should have join along time ago.

I also know a family member recalled back,lol an my family is getting old. my uncle is 44 an got recalled back back to active duty at a sargent first class



posted on Apr, 28 2006 @ 05:59 PM
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While, I’ll agree that we do have a greater than most degree of personal freedom in the US and we have helped out others in the world we shouldn’t deify our oversees actions, a good 90% of our actions oversees had ulterior motives and strings behind them, a good portion of them were just “good” as a bi-product of our overall goal of our actions, like don white said in his first reply to the original post (got my way above, first ever given) historically the US has had it’s own reasons and checkered past. My grandparents came to this country when the US intervene to remove our democratically elected leader in the 60s who replace a puppet set up by the US (who killed and raped thousands in his 20 to 30 year rule and was only when he started getting his own ideas and went against US interest) with a corrupt military/fascist regime which reign for another 20+ years stealing, looting, and killing just like the first puppet government it put in place, and this was the norm for their other puppets through out latin America set up by the CIA. No I don’t say that we are all bad, ww2 was truly a shinning moment in US history which symbolize the ideal that we (Americans) like to exemplify and what until recently a lot of people bought into when they thought of America. I’m not saying we are the great satan or demonic NWO of the world, because we could be a lot worse if we wanted to (a true imperialist nation) if we wanted to any time in the last 50+ years. The thing is our propaganda post WWII that we have spread and drank up like the mythical “kool-aid” has worked against us, we live in the real world and sometimes you have to play dirty to survive even for the greater good sometimes and we’ve played with the best of them throughout our 200+ year history. And we tried to ram the kool-aid down people throats (some drink it willingly) when it doesn’t really take much to poke holes into our defender of the free world image we fought most of the cold war by securing democracy by putting in dictators and murderers/looters in charge through out the 3rd world. We’ve been the only “FREE” nation since our inception in the late 1700s but it took almost a hundred years from the civil war to the civil rights movement for more than just land owning white men to be able to vote and be “relatively” equal. Like I said, we aren’t the great satan or the worst country but more you polish the image and put ourselves over others the easier it to knock us down and throw our own actions and history back at us.




Originally posted by ghost
Right now, this statement is a bit misleading to a degree! Most of the people in the military today are either long time "carrier soildures " or people who sign up immediatly after 9/11! Also, there is the issue of the unofficial "Back Door" Draft!


Good point, there really is very little you can blame the Grunts in the military for when it comes to foreign policy, they couldn’t speak out even if they wanted to, the only military people who bare some responsibility who be the puppet masters at the pentagon and as we’ve seen by their objections and suggestion being time and time again ignored and dismiss by the current white house on Iraq that they only have so much real say and influence. And calling our military men Mercenaries is really stretching it, when considering that most of our fighting men are basically making minimum wage or less for the most dangerous legal job in the US, part of the military has to have their family on welfare, I don’t think money comes that much into it. Most, over half are there because of defense of their country. And like I said before, if we had the ill-will to put Iraq or the entire middle east under our Boot we have the firepower to do it, yet we go out of our way, to the point of increasing the danger our forces face trying to be as “humane” and politically correct as possible. We could have carpet bomb fallujah and gotten rid of every single insurgent there within a day yet we stood off for days letting the civilians and some insurgent leave and the ones who stayed time to entrenched themselves and solidify their defenses before we went in there leading to the deaths of several soldiers in the process. The backdoor draft and the real financial situation of the military life (they have to even buy some of their own equipment on-top of their dismal pay) really goes against the whole US mercenaries soldier argument.

You just can’t make blanket black or white statements About the US because while we do have a better than most “domestic life” it comes at the price of a very checkered history of over seas actions. I’ll admit that we’ve helped when we didn’t have to and have helped out a lot more than most others who harp about our global motives, we’ve down more for Arab/Muslim or African countries than they’ve down for each other, but like I said, don’t black and white the issues, because the isn’t the world we live in. Our deifying of US global intentions which has more holes than swiss chease has played into our current Image problems just as much as backlash from the disasters and mismanagement of the current war on terror (state of Iraq, torture flights, ect.) Bit of a rant but I’m sure at least 2 or 3 of you here will know what I’m trying to say.



posted on May, 16 2006 @ 01:26 PM
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Good Point! However, the "Alterior Motives" have to do with the polititions who make the policies, not the solidures in the feild. Case in point, Iraq! There was no security threat there and there never was. Bush wanted oil and Saddam wouldn't share! W didn't want to take no for an answer, so he created a reason to go to war. Why do you think the UN security council didn't support the war?

Don't balme the grunts because Bush thew a fit!

Tim



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