Hell IS Real !!! This Guy Went There!!!!

Oh, yeah mr. arrogant... Can you prove God? Pfft, pathetic... All I ever heard about God were stupid bible quotes... Atleast from you and everyone else who 'claim' to be Christian. I believe in God, yeah... But I do NOT believe him to be sole Christian. And yet, you simply cannot simply agree of the possibility that he might be all religions in one, can you? No you can't... Your mindless quotes from a book do not prove anything.

Oh and it is a book that is very old you say? Hmmm... Yes, yes, I see your point now... Its very clear to me now, I see... So age means it is exactly valid information? Okay, so I have a single question for you now.. Tell me how many times that the bible has been modify as it has been pasted on from king to king...

And no... We don't want to hear your petty crap about how the bible was written by God, or man but really inspired by God, or by Jesus' wife, or whatever... We don't exactly care either...

How can you honestly tell me that you're a christian? You do not follow God's example at all... By reading a book through and through does not grant you anything in belief... Well, of course you'd have to be extremely naive to fall for it anyhow... I bet your parents were people who encouraged you, and sent you to "God's school" so you could learn more... I bet when you had free time off, you dad would make you go out and make you run up stairways on a football station to increase your stamina.

The real christian is the one who actually believes in God and can refere life to him, and not use constant use of a book to quote him... A real believer is the one who had heard God's voice through his practice.

On the vibration part, its part of what I believe... As you believe in God, I believe in vibration.

And btw. if God is such a loving entity, why would he send pain to those who believe in other Gods? Shoulden't he still love them none-the-less and show them the right path once they die? Hah, you should think about that for a while before you come up with more of your 'intelligent' posts 'proving' your point.

Let me start off by saying that I still consider myself a Christian. That is, I try to be a Christian. I think that there is WAY too much knowlege out there that we are unaware of to really say that we know something. Let me give you an example - Zoroastrianism. Did you know that it is a fact that this religion originally brought the concept of Heaven, Hell, Angel and Devil figures, Resurrection and the afterlife to early Judaism? They've researched this, used carbondating, etc. to find that before the Persians invaded Babylonia, which at the time was occupying Israel, the Jewish people did not believe in Heaven, Hell, and quite a few other things. Guess what the religion of the Persians was at the time? You guess it, Zoroastrianism. Now I'm not saying this disproves Heaven and Hell, but it definitely makes you think. This is like a fraction of a percent of the knowlege that most people are unaware of. You could call it proof that the bible isn't accurate and Christianities belief in Heaven and Hell aren't pure, or you could say that it was simply God who chose to influence our religion in this way. But one thing's for sure - there's a Hell of a lot of knowlege out there. How can we be sure of anything if we don't have even close to the information that we need? (You can look all of this up on wikipedia or whatever you want - I assure you it's true.) Moving on...

Alright, you seem to be assuming that A.) I'm being blasphemous towards God and trying to disprove him, and B.) that everyone is capable of believing in God if they just "try." I will tell you, with 100% honesty, that I've prayed night after night for God to restore my faith. I've prayed for signs, for belief, for anything...anything that would give me faith once and for all that God is the God of Christianity, and I've been following the right path. Well as you can imagine, this hasn't worked. I have tried "just believing" - it doesn't work. I don't if maybe God has a different plan for me to find Christianity in another way, maybe he just doesn't feel like answering my prayers, or maybe he's not going to help me at all. I just don't know, and that's what I'm trying to say. Whole heartedly believing in someone who has never chosen to show himself to me or give me something to hold onto isn't as easy as you make it sound for a person like me. How can you call yourself truley faithful if you're just forcing yourself to believe?

Furthermore, saying things like

Because you are demanding an accounting of the One Who created you and as it is written, shall the pot ask the potter "Why have you made me this way?" If He is indeed God, how would He satisfy your demand, oh man?

is irrational, and a bit circular in logic. Why should I belive in God? Because he created me. How do I know he created me? Don't ask - he's God.

Maybe I can put it in another perspective for you so that you can see how it feels coming from an unfaithful person's point of view (Don't get me wrong - I'm not unfaithful.) A muslim comes up to you and tells you that Allah is the only God. Everything is Allah. You tell him "How do I know? My God is the Christian God. He is the only God." The muslim says something like "Fool! How can you say such things about Allah! He created you. You're CHOOSING to defy Allah, and you will meet your punishment in the end! Asking for Allah to reveal himself to you is like the pot asking the potter why he was created this way!"

See what I mean? To someone who doesn't believe, or is unsure of what God is, it doesn't help much to tell him to just "believe." Now say that you die and that Muslim was correct - you're now in an islamic Hell. Would you feel that it is fair punishment, for you are the man who defied Allah? You chose to defy Allah? After all,

Originally posted by curiousity
The choice is up to you...

I agree that man can never fully comprehend God's existence.

I didn't say nor do I believe that man can never fully comprehend God's existence. We can never grasp all that God is and how He works in the world, since we are finite and He is infinite, true enough, and maybe that is what you intended to mean.

God's power is absolute, and it goes way beyond human logic; however, that's where the paradox comes in. If God is more complicated than we can ever imagine, and we can't find him logically, how are we supposed to honestly "know" that he exists? >>snip

I'm a bit confused here. The person to whom I responded was curiousity. Are you curiousity, or am I discussing this with two people? Not that I have a problem with that, it just gets hard to keep track of my arguments when I don't know to whom I'm replying, or who is going to reply to me.

And no, I don't see this as an argument. I was using "argument" to mean "point", I guess. You can make an argument without necessarily being in an argument...or at least I can. And yes, my words should reflect some longing. You could say I long to know the truth. I simply just don't feel right making myself believe and not having anything to base it on. One of your main points seems to be the necessity of "knowing", and why do I see it as a requirement. Without knowing, what separates you from being a Muslim, a Buddhist, a Hindu, or a Jew? Is it simply the environment in which you were raised? Is that really what God wants, or does he want us to choose him. How can you make a choice if you never consider any other options? And if you consider the other options, which all have enormous amounts of followers, some more so than Christians, what would compel you to choose Christianity? I've studied (Just this first semester of world religions) other religions, and they have pretty compelling reasons to believe. What I'm saying is that I would like a reason to believe in Christianity over other religions, and not just make a blind stab in the dark and hope that I'm right. Because a Muslim might say to you when you ask why you're going to his Hell, "Because you didn't choose Allah. It was entirely your own choice to go to Hell. You could have chosen Allah, but you chose the God of Christianity instead. Your punishment is just."

For me, it's like a dark room with a large number of doors. All of these doors, save one, lead to a pit of spikes and fire. If all you can see is one door, you're going to hope that it's the right one and go through it. But once the other doors are revealed to you, how do you know which door to choose? I have prayed. I've asked for understanding and that God will lead me to the right choice, but all I've ever gotten is more confusion. Like I said, I still remain a Christian, but I just feel like I'm a Christian by default, and not because I explored other options and chose Christianity. I want to make a choice, and not just blindly follow a religion because that is what I was born into.

Deny Ignorance?

Originally posted by Herman
For me, it's like a dark room with a large number of doors. All of these doors, save one, lead to a pit of spikes and fire. If all you can see is one door, you're going to hope that it's the right one and go through it. But once the other doors are revealed to you, how do you know which door to choose? I have prayed. I've asked for understanding and that God will lead me to the right choice, but all I've ever gotten is more confusion. Like I said, I still remain a Christian, but I just feel like I'm a Christian by default, and not because I explored other options and chose Christianity. I want to make a choice, and not just blindly follow a religion because that is what I was born into.

Then why don't you?

After reading 12 pages of replies, all I can say is the replies themselves are proof the bible is correct. The parable of the rich man who went to hell says that he asked an angel to send Moses to go back to talk to his brothers. The angel replies it wouldn't work . They have the Law and the prophets, the angel says.If they won't believe these signs, they would not believe even if Moses himself came back to talk to them.

I believe in Zorgolak, Ventirock, Mugradum, and Connecticut. No really, I've been there. Ok, not Connecticut, I probably just dreamed that one, but the others I have seem with my own eyes!

Believe me? I'll make a tape if it will convince you.

The reason I say this is to prove a point. It isn't truly open minded to accept the statement that this man has been to hell just because he says he has been. It sounds to me like the ones who accept it are predisposed to do so because it lines up with something in which they already believe.

I am open minded. I'll approach it this way then. I can go so far as to accept that this man may believe that he has been to hell. I can believe that he believes it. That's as far as I can go. An open mind though must ask, "Is there any other possible explaination for this? Could it possibly be something other than what it appears?"

We don't know this individuals medical history. I have worked with schizophrenics and I can see possible parrellels. I don't know the man's emotional history. I don't truly know under what conditions he lived when this episode took place. I know nothing of the type of socialisation he received as a child. The list goes on.

I am a spritual person and I have had a near death experience. Although these things are traumatic, there are sometimes common explainations for what seem like extraordinary events.

Originally posted by Herman
I'm a bit confused here. The person to whom I responded was curiousity. Are you curiousity, or am I discussing this with two people?

Yes, I am also registered as curiousity, sorry for the confusion, I don't always take care to note which name I'm using.

And yes, my words should reflect some longing. You could say I long to know the truth.

Yes, I recognize that. Let me ask you this: If I had incontrovertible proof that God exists, what would it mean to you?

Without knowing, what separates you from being a Muslim, a Buddhist, a Hindu, or a Jew?

Faith in Christ. Now let me ask you another question: What or Whom does a Muslim have faith in? Or a Buddhist? You may or not be aware or what they believe in, but I can assure you it is not in a risen Lord, whose sinless death allows them to live though they are sinners and by rights separated forever from a Holy God.

I simply just don't feel right making myself believe and not having anything to base it on.

You have the Universe, the miracles all around you. You have the moon, the stars, and the sky. And yes, I recognize that man has tainted all such "proof" with his "learned" treatise on how this or that came to be in the universe.

But nevertheless you have the fact that earth is the exact distance from the sun that is required for life as we know it to thrive. That the atmosphere is the exact thickness needed to repel most sun rays, thereby preserving life from being incinerated, and also to keep all the warmth from escaping, so that we are not frozen to death.

That water evaporates and comes again over and over as rain in seasons when crop growth is optimal because of the nearness of the sun, and so on.

Though we, most of us at least, are long removed from the land, and such examples as I've come up with above are at best a distant uh huh in our minds, yet we depend on all the above to live.

So, now to get to the point, "knowing" is not a necessity at all. Seeing is believing so it is said and as we "see" the things of God, we believe. If we only focus on the things of man, remember that all of us are fallen creatures and wicked at heart. The only difference between a Christian and a non-believer is that Christ has come to make His home with the Christian in a spot called the spirit, and is in the midst of making the person into His own image, that is, into a son of God. One thing you will see is that the Christian clings to Christ as his only hope for perfection of holiness without which NO ONE will see God.

Like I said, I still remain a Christian, but I just feel like I'm a Christian by default, and not because I explored other options and chose Christianity.

To be a Christian, you must have faith in Christ, otherwise you are not a Christian, by default or any other way. There is an old saying that goes "God has no grandchildren". So you can't become one because your parents send you or take you to church either.

There are good reasons for every belief man has but that doesn't make them all Truth. Some we can laugh at from our exalted level of civilization, but studying them shows the rationality behind them. Rationality is not to be confused with Truth, however.

Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life....whosoever believeth in me shall never die". Morever the Father bears Him witness saying, "...whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."

That is the Truth we must face, friend. With Him, we at least have the words of God in the Bible to depend on and live by. Without Him, we are certainly lost and alone in the Universe.

As some have said, I'd rather live as if He is, than to live as if He is not and discover that I have an angry God to face.

Originally posted by Volatile
Then why don't you?

I am searching.

Happness,

I'm more curious in what answers you might have for the bigger questions addressed in my post - namely, how do we know that Christ is the right choice over other religions if we haven't explored them, without any sort of bias because of what we've been taught, and chosen Christianity over them? If we don't have the knowlege we need to make a choice, isn't that believing based on ignorance? I believe it is in the bible where it is sayd that you should not be as the mule...or something... I don't remember the exact verse Anyway it says that you shouldn't be ignorant, and that you should seek God rather than just maintaining a blind faith. You've answered some of my smaller questions, but the biggest obsticles I've mentioned you haven't addressed. I understand, of course, that you're not going to have all of the answers . I do, however, believe that they're out there somewhere.

Yes, I recognize that. Let me ask you this: If I had incontrovertible proof that God exists, what would it mean to you?

It depends on what kind of proof you have. If God came to me and told me who he was, that would most definitely be proof enough. He did it in the bible, did he not?

Faith in Christ. Now let me ask you another question: What or Whom does a Muslim have faith in? Or a Buddhist? You may or not be aware or what they believe in, but I can assure you it is not in a risen Lord, whose sinless death allows them to live though they are sinners and by rights separated forever from a Holy God.

Islam is a monotheistic religion to the core. They have faith in Allah, and Allah alone; however, the greatest prophet to them is the prophet Mohhamad; however, they do share belief in a lot of the same prophets as in Judaism and Christianity (It does stem from Christianity/Judaism, afterall.) In fact, Jesus himself is in the Koran as a great prophet. There's a story in the Koran where Mohammad actually meets Jesus when he is brought to heaven. What Buddhists believe in...well I'm afraid you don't want to open that Pandora's box. Are you referring to the tradition Theravada Buddhism, or Mahayana? Under Theravada, Buddha was simply a man and nobody to be warshipped as a God. In fact, he believed that the Gods were irrelevant. Under Mahayana (There are a lot of other sects under Mahayana Buddhism), Budda is divine and is prayed to. I don't quite understand where you're going with this, though. Does who they warship really make a difference to you as to how credible their faith is? Jewish people don't even believe that Jesus was the savior - does that mean that they're beliefs are any less credible than yours?

You have the Universe, the miracles all around you. You have the moon, the stars, and the sky. And yes, I recognize that man has tainted all such "proof" with his "learned" treatise on how this or that came to be in the universe.

But nevertheless you have the fact that earth is the exact distance from the sun that is required for life as we know it to thrive. That the atmosphere is the exact thickness needed to repel most sun rays, thereby preserving life from being incinerated, and also to keep all the warmth from escaping, so that we are not frozen to death.

That water evaporates and comes again over and over as rain in seasons when crop growth is optimal because of the nearness of the sun, and so on.

Though we, most of us at least, are long removed from the land, and such examples as I've come up with above are at best a distant uh huh in our minds, yet we depend on all the above to live.

Actually, humans adapted to the earth, not the other way around. A quick glance at how plants and animals work will show you that pretty easily. I do believe that God created the earth, but it would be ignorant to think that the earth was created specifically for humans, and not the other way around. It's almost on par with beliving that the earth is flat and at the center of the universe.

So, now to get to the point, "knowing" is not a necessity at all. Seeing is believing so it is said and as we "see" the things of God, we believe. If we only focus on the things of man, remember that all of us are fallen creatures and wicked at heart. The only difference between a Christian and a non-believer is that Christ has come to make His home with the Christian in a spot called the spirit, and is in the midst of making the person into His own image, that is, into a son of God. One thing you will see is that the Christian clings to Christ as his only hope for perfection of holiness without which NO ONE will see God.

You don't seem to be understanding what I'm trying to get at. Why should we force ourselves to believe if God hasn't given us anything, other than the bible, to tell us who he is? If he truley loved about us and was all powerful, isn't there some sort of blunt sign that he could give us to show us that he's there? All of the things that you mentioned could easily be explained by a Muslim. They would say that proof of Allah is all around us, and it is your choice to have faith in Allah. Let me ask you a question, and please don't respond with "that will never happen." Say you die and wind up in an islamic Hell. You're going to be tortured for all eternity in the worst ways possible - just like in the video. The last thing you're able to do is talk to Allah, and he reveals himself to you. You ask him why, if he truley loved you, would he send you to Hell. He tells you that he's not sending you anywhere, and that it was YOUR choice to disobey him. Would you agree?

To be a Christian, you must have faith in Christ, otherwise you are not a Christian, by default or any other way. There is an old saying that goes "God has no grandchildren". So you can't become one because your parents send you or take you to church either.

You misinterpreted me. I still have faith in Christ, and I still believe in God, but I don't know why. I feel that my faith is slipping away, and that everytime I attain more knowlege I just slip further away. I feel that unless I KNOW why I'm believing, I'm going to lose it for good. I have prayed, but nothing happens...

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
It isn't truly open minded to accept the statement that this man has been to hell just because he says he has been. It sounds to me like the ones who accept it are predisposed to do so because it lines up with something in which they already believe.

I am open minded. I'll approach it this way then. I can go so far as to accept that this man may believe that he has been to hell. I can believe that he believes it. That's as far as I can go. An open mind though must ask, "Is there any other possible explaination for this? Could it possibly be something other than what it appears?"

I am a spritual person and I have had a near death experience. Although these things are traumatic, there are sometimes common explainations for what seem like extraordinary events.

So you're saying, one is open-minded if he rejects what another person says? I disagree with what you said first... You are open minded if you accept what he says, but you don't nessesarily have to believe it.

I agree that being open minded is to ask if there are other possibilities... But my definition of open minded is to be aware of the possibility that "he was there" and "he wasn't there". Another else, as trying to come up with theorys of an alternative from that, is just simple assumptioning.

Originally posted by HermanI'm more curious in what answers you might have for the bigger questions addressed in my post - namely, how do we know that Christ is the right choice over other religions if we haven't explored them, without any sort of bias because of what we've been taught, and chosen Christianity over them?

When you've explored other religions, have you found an answer to the questions you've asked?

You asked what the difference was in worshipping Allah or in following another type of religion and now ask "Does who they warship really make a difference to you as to how credible their faith is?" and I answer again:

Faith in Christ. ... what they believe in, but I can assure you it is not in a risen Lord, whose sinless death allows them to live though they are sinners and by rights separated forever from a Holy God.

You must recognize at this point in the discussion that I do believe their faith is credible to them. It remains to be seen and measured against the plan God has set in motion whether it is good enough for Him.

Actually, humans adapted to the earth, not the other way around. A quick glance at how plants and animals work will show you that pretty easily. I do believe that God created the earth, but it would be ignorant to think that the earth was created specifically for humans, and not the other way around.

Twice in the above quote you have slanted your statement to disagree that God created the earth for humans in rather insulting ways, but I am not taking offense, nor do I believe I'm ignorant because I believe the earth was created first and that humans came last of all and MIRACULOUSLY all things of earth are suited to human living.

It seems that we are getting to the crux of your inability to believe, though, and if you'd like to continue this discussion, I believe it would better serve to do it through less public venues. You may u2u me with a place I can contact you or we can do it through u2u's if you prefer. Just let me know.

In the meantime, you might find this site helpful: www.georgefoxwritings.com...













































































[edit on 12-5-2006 by happness]

Happness,

I sent you a U2U so that we can continue this discussion elsewhere, per your request.

Originally posted by Volatile
So you're saying, one is open-minded if he rejects what another person says? I disagree with what you said first... You are open minded if you accept what he says, but you don't nessesarily have to believe it.

I agree that being open minded is to ask if there are other possibilities... But my definition of open minded is to be aware of the possibility that "he was there" and "he wasn't there". Another else, as trying to come up with theorys of an alternative from that, is just simple assumptioning.

No there was nothing in what I wrote that said rejection equals open mindedness. The point I am making is that to accept such a fantastic claim as real proof that hell is a physical place, well, that surely isn't open minded either.
I wasn't coming up with actual theories to explain the event, I was simply pointing out that there could be many. There are many possible explanations for this event. To consider only one possibility seems rather a poor way to make progress.

As I said, I could believe that he believes it. Maybe that is the acceptance of which you write. I just won't rule out all the other possibilities.

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
No there was nothing in what I wrote that said rejection equals open mindedness. The point I am making is that to accept such a fantastic claim as real proof that hell is a physical place, well, that surely isn't open minded either.
I wasn't coming up with actual theories to explain the event, I was simply pointing out that there could be many. There are many possible explanations for this event. To consider only one possibility seems rather a poor way to make progress.

As I said, I could believe that he believes it. Maybe that is the acceptance of which you write. I just won't rule out all the other possibilities.

No you didne't but I got the impression of it, as you said, accepting this guy woulden't be open minded, then I figured you were meaning that rejecting him would be... As many people do believe is "open minded"

I agree with the last part, we are probably talking about the same thing but in different words

When we sin it creates a blemish on our soul. If we do not atone for this sin through repenting and making it right we carry this with us. Hell is the pain of being exposed to the light of G-d when we die and being ashamed of our sin becasue we can now see the way things really are . That is it, no fire and brimstone, no devil, no eternal damnation. It is the "cleansing" of the soul of its sins in life. We are spiritual beings, the body is only a shell so it is silly to think that hell is a physical place. Spiritual pain is much more intense than physical. This is what I believe anyway....

Originally posted by kokoro...
Hell is the pain of being exposed to the light of G-d when we die and being ashamed of our sin becasue we can now see the way things really are . That is it, no fire and brimstone, no devil, no eternal damnation.... This is what I believe anyway....

That is what you believe based on what, if you don't mind my asking?

I agree there will surely be pain in hell, but why wait until you're dead to be ashamed of your sin? Seeing things "as they really are", ie, sin for what it is, is available right now, live and in person.

Originally posted by cobol
After reading 12 pages of replies, all I can say is the replies themselves are proof the bible is correct. The parable of the rich man who went to hell says that he asked an angel to send Moses to go back to talk to his brothers. The angel replies it wouldn't work. They have the Law and the prophets, the angel says. If they won't believe these signs, they would not believe even if Moses himself came back to talk to them.

So true, and so so sad.

Originally posted by happness

Originally posted by kokoro...
Hell is the pain of being exposed to the light of G-d when we die and being ashamed of our sin becasue we can now see the way things really are . That is it, no fire and brimstone, no devil, no eternal damnation.... This is what I believe anyway....

That is what you believe based on what, if you don't mind my asking?

I agree there will surely be pain in hell, but why wait until you're dead to be ashamed of your sin? Seeing things "as they really are", ie, sin for what it is, is available right now, live and in person.

This is based on my readings of ancient Jewish and Kabbalistic writings.

You are right! I am in no way saying that we should just wait until we are dead to be ashamed of our sin. There is always the option to recognize your sin in life and then take the appropriate measures to atone for it (ie; repent and actually mean it). That is of course the optimal situation. However, no man is without sin so we are bound to carry something with us after we die. And I think we would agree that there are a lot of people out there (myself included) that are doing things that they dont believe are sins, therefore, they do not repent. My point was really that hell is not a physical place, it is a state of being in which your soul is exposed to the all knowing G-d himself.

Originally posted by kokoro... This is based on my readings of ancient Jewish and Kabbalistic writings.

You are right! I am in no way saying that we should just wait until we are dead to be ashamed of our sin. There is always the option to recognize your sin in life and then take the appropriate measures to atone for it (ie; repent and actually mean it). That is of course the optimal situation. However, no man is without sin so we are bound to carry something with us after we die. And I think we would agree that there are a lot of people out there (myself included) that are doing things that they dont believe are sins, therefore, they do not repent. My point was really that hell is not a physical place, it is a state of being in which your soul is exposed to the all knowing G-d himself.

Those who believe into Christ have had their sins removed and in fact are free from the law of sin and death, according to the Bible, so I disagree that we will enter eternity with sin on us, if we've believed into Yahshua.

I don't see how hell can not be a physical place, the Bible indicates in Revelation esp, that those who go there are sent "alive" into the torment. That indicates physicality to me.

And really, your soul is exposed to God all the time, all your days, every moment, and in everything you think, say and do, is it not? Else God is not omnipotent now, but only after we die? Perhaps you meant that we are aware of being seen and that is hell?

Seems paltry compared to the types and kinds of sins I and others have committed.
In any event, I have become painfully aware of my sins over and over, and I am surely not in hell. In fact, I'm grateful that it happens here and now and not at the judgment seat.