You are just a number. Sorry.

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posted on Apr, 10 2006 @ 08:02 AM
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There is nothing wrong with a healthy portion of paranoia. And here at ATS we get to see a whole lot of tin-hat-type paranoia. We talk to each other, sharing stories about aliens abducting our cows, Bigfoot stealing our wives’ undergarments and how the government is watching all of this from the dark corners of our cities. And we believe each other with enough skepticism to stay sane. Once in a while we bump into a fellow member that obviously lost the line between healthy paranoia and scary weirdness, and you thank your stars that you haven’t turned nut yet.


Wanted by MIB for revealing secrets

But some of us are further along the line than we would like to admit – or know. All this conspiracy theories plant all kinds of ideas into our heads. And it’s a good thing because much – if not most – of it holds water, and need to be pondered and talked about in order to deny ignorance, i.e. be informed about what’s really going on. There are really conspiracies out there – no denying that. But we allow our imaginations to run away with us. Again, nothing wrong with a good imagination. It’s for the better to have a great imagination. But when do our imaginations run far enough to turn us into tinfoil folding theorists? When do we cross the line of fact into the dark world of egomania and feelings of grandeur? When is our feelings of "they’re out to get me" just plain crazy-talk?

Thus, the reason for the title of this thread. You are just a number. Yes. You are just a number to your government. You are just a number to any of the powers that be. Let’s face it. Neither of our governments cares if "John Smith" is happy. Who is John Smith? They don’t know. Ah, sure they care if the masses are "happy", or at least happy enough not to stir. But they couldn't care less for an individual. Because an individual has no power. Do you disagree? Your vote counts, right? Think about it. What can you as an individual do to change anything – other than complain?

I'm not talking politics here. But keep it in mind. I’m talking about those with a strong believe that the M.I.B. are out to get them.

Can you as an individual honestly make such a difference that the/a government sees you as a threat?

You saw a UFO. You took a picture of it. You posted it on your personal web server. The local newspaper did an interview with you. The other day two guys wearing black suits came to your house, asked some questions and in a way "harassed" (for lack of a better description) you. Now, whenever you look over your shoulder there’s a big, shiny black car a few yards/meters behind you, with two fellows in black suits trying to look inconspicuous. Suddenly you have a flat on your car, twice in one week. Your dog falls ill. Your garden furniture is re-arranged. You know the government put a "hit" out on your life. You know the truth, and they want to stop you from telling anyone.

The idea of the M.I.B. was born from a publication from International Flying Saucer Bureau (IFSB), in 1953, run by one Albert K. Bender. Their last publication was in October 1953 when they wrote this:

"LATE BULLETIN. A source which the IFSB considers very reliable has informed us that the investigation of the flying saucer mystery and the solution is approaching its final stages… The source is already known, but any information about this is being withheld by order from a higher source. We would like to print the full story in Space Review, but because of the nature of the information we are very sorry that we have been advised in the negative.” The statement ended with the ominous sentence, "We advise those engaged in saucer work to please be very cautious." Bender then suspended the publication of Space Review, and dissolved the IFSB.



Shortly after Bender closed down his magazine and organization he gave an interview to a local paper [in] which he asserted that he had been visited by "three men wearing dark suits" who had ordered him "emphatically" to stop publishing material about flying saucers. Bender said that he had been "scared to death" and that he "actually couldn't eat for a couple of days.". Some of Bender's former associates tried to press for a more satisfactory explanation, but to all questions he replied either cryptically or not at all.


The popular believe is that the Roswell crash coincided with the birth of the M.I.B.’s, but that’s another discussion.

Since then there has been "countless cases" of MIB reports that goes hand-in-hand with UFO events. But the fact is that these “countless cases” are a bit fuzzy. The so-called reports are non-existent or hard to pin down. The amount of black on white reports of actual people being visited by “menacing agents” is but a handful.

In the end there is little reason to believe a person has been singled out by some kind of government agency because the person could reveal the truth…

Yes? No?

Think about it. Does your government or my government or any government body have the resources to control individuals? Think about the human resources needed for such an operation not to mention all the logistical problems!? And then the biggest problem of it all. Secrecy. Everyone likes a good secret, and even more so, everyone likes to be the source of a good, reliable secret. How do you become a MiB? How do you control your MiB? How do you keep a single person (Man in Black) from destroying your whole house of cards? Ah… A bit of controversy here? First I say an individual is no threat to anyone, now I’m saying that a single person could destroy the whole secrecy plot? That’s one of the points I want to make. Do you have any idea how much and what kind of information you need to actually create a stir at the higher levels? Do you think a single picture of an alien you stole from Area 51 is going to mean anything to anyone? No. It’s just another fuzzy picture of something that could or could not be an alien… There are more than enough public sceptics out there to rip it apart as a “hoax”. Now, if you drove of with an area 51 UFO in the back of your truck straight to CNN’s headquarters (or whatever newsagent can be “trusted”)… Now that will get some guys with black suits and big guns on your tail!

You think your (or my) government is smart enough to keep tabs on every single person on the planet? Too bad they can’t keep tabs on the 50,000 + kids that go missing each year… Not to mention adults. And how they battle to find criminals?! There’s a top 10 wanted list for a reason. And need I even mention Osama Binladen? On the movies we see how they can track a person via satellite within seconds… But that’s the movies. Fact is no government has complete control over the population. A bunch of men dressing in black suits will even have less control driving around in 60‘s classics.

And here’s another thought to ponder. Does it make sense to send the MiB out after the fact? You see an alien. You tell everyone. The local newspaper prints it. The MiB come with some cheap scare tactics to shut you up. What did they achieve? Nothing. The information about your sighting is already out there. Trying to “shut you up” afterwards is just about beyond the point. Ah, but you’re doing research and asking all kinds of questions… Your inches away from revealing the ultimate truth! I think not. Do you think you’re going to find something that has not been found? You think you’re going to ask a question no one else before you asked? Maybe. Maybe not. It doesn’t matter. What can you possibly do with the information? Add it to one of 5,000,000 other UFO sites? To a big chunk of the earth’s population you’re just a crazed nut. The government has much better things to do than to keep a close eye on Mr J. Smith.

OK, I’ll wrap it up… I do have a point, you know. Whenever we feel a bit too paranoid we must just remind ourselves that to the Government we are just a number. As long as citizen 8005305016080 (AKA Mr J Smith) pays his taxes, they just don’t care. That feeling of being watched is just plain old paranoia. A feeling of self-importance. We must not get into this conspiracy business with to much seriousness. We cannot stay inside our homes, too scared to go outside because “they” are out to get us. Don’t let ATS cause paranoia and your imagination run away in such a way that it controls your life. This is the Internet. Real life is still out there.

But, before you get too depressed about your inability to make a difference as an individual… That’s what ATS is for. As an individual you have the opportunity to contribute to the community. Yes, the MiB may not be interested in you as an individual, but they’re definitely interested in what goes on here at ATS. As long as it stays a trust-worthy source of information they’ll worry. And the origin of the information? A collection of contributing individuals.

So, in conclusion (yes, I do shut up eventually). You are just a number to the government. They are not out to get us. If you can prove without a shadow of doubt that someone is trying to destroy your life, then you ARE sitting on something big, and you need to share it with us immediately.

One last thought...


Btw, government agents are actually very easy to spot: They can be recognised because they tend to look at you in a rather strange way when you wear your tin foil hat in public). They will then do their best to harm your reputation and discredit you, for example by spreading rumors that you're paranoid, delusional or otherwise not a very stable person.



Edit: Source: DIY Tinfoil Hat


[edit on 10-4-2006 by Gemwolf]




posted on Apr, 10 2006 @ 08:21 AM
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Ohhh, absolutely great post gemwolf!

I think, to a lot of people, the line between paranoia and weirdness is beyond the stage of being blurred. Thankfully, neither me, nor you it seems, have reached this stage yet.

To think we are all numbers is totally right. What do a few hundred governments care about the 6-7 billion people on this planet? Could you imagine half the planets population employed to keep tabs on the other half?!

And you're also right-on-the-money with your point of 'every theory you read plants an idea in your head.' Before I came onto ATS, GWB was a crackpot loony and the guy in in the black suit was a census worker.
Now, GWB is a Reptilian member of the NWO with ties going back to 400 A.D., and is in personal cahoots with Bin Laden; and Mr. Suit isn't there to ask how many kids and cars I have.

Human Drone No. 382730-2720.



And the origin of the information? A collection of contributing individuals.


So we all heard that? Keep posting and keep the government suspicious!


[edit on 10/4/2006 by watch_the_rocks]



posted on Apr, 10 2006 @ 08:32 AM
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You're correct in much of what you say about those who concern themselves primarily with UFO/Alien/MIB conspiracies. If you had chosen to focus your argument on issues such as governmental/departmental corruption, however, you would have been wide of the mark, for our governments have shown themselves to be very swift and effective when it comes to tracking & silencing those with the capacity to hurt/inconvenience/expose politicians/governments and those who prop up the system. Presidents, biologists, heads of State, whistle-blowers etc. are 'removed' with ruthless and blatant efficiency from right under the world's nose. No wonder the little-man fears for his safety and suspects monsters are under his bed !

As far as our being merely numbers within Life's game; you're correct, of course. But most regard such with eqanimity. Life's no bargain; no trip to Disneyland. Most are resigned to living it, doing their best and leaving with a degree of optimism regarding what comes next. If it's nothing, then that's fine; most people would settle for a long, consciousless 'sleep'. On the other hand, it might turn out to be interesting and hopefully an improvement to life in a body. For those who've spent their lives making the lives of others a misery however, maybe now's the time to change.

But as far as being a mere number is concerned, remaining as such is the smart option. Flying under the radar, honing the ability to blend with the scenery, enables one to quietly do quite a bit of righteous damage



posted on Apr, 10 2006 @ 09:15 AM
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Another good post from Gemwolf!!! This guy is on fire lately....

I think you are right, and wrong. You're right in my opinion by saying that they view us as just a number, ie - sheep to be tagged and barcoded.

On the other hand, I think you're wrong in the sense to deny that "they" are indeed making files on a lot of subversive people, people that aren't towing the party line, so to speak. I know this proves nothing, but for an example, I borrowed some dissident materials from the local library, where my ex girlfriends mother works, when she saw what I was borrowing, she said that they would probably put a red-flag in the system on me.

I think that some agency would definately be monitoring the dissidents, all around the globe, especially in Europe, America and Australia, which, coincidentally, is where I am.

So even if we don't all have MIB's following us around, I would definately think that we would be on governmental listings as subversive or dissident, probably for posting on ATS even, (someone once called it A Tracking System,) also the fact remains "they" can monitor us very easily even without having some hired goons follow us around.

"They" are building those internment camps for a reason, the very nature of this post is probably seditious enough to get me locked up in some countries!



posted on Apr, 10 2006 @ 12:01 PM
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...And I feel like a number
Feel like a number
Feel like a stranger
A stranger in this land
I feel like a number
I’m not a number
I’m not a number
Dammit I’m a man
I said I’m a man

lyrics by Bob Seger


Gemwolf, don't ask why, I just thought some Seger went along good with your post.

I agree, as long as no flags go up at the IRS, or you don't attempt jumping fences at the White House....you may as well be robot #0055049400.

NC



posted on Apr, 10 2006 @ 03:14 PM
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Where do I find this number? Is it tattooed someplace I can't get a good look at, like the back of my head? And if we get to pick our own number, I'd like 07734, so when you turn it upside-down, it'll read "hello."



posted on Apr, 11 2006 @ 12:27 AM
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Enkidu, you are number 6. I am the new number 2. Who is number 1?




posted on Apr, 11 2006 @ 02:01 AM
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Originally posted by DrBones666
I think you are right, and wrong. **Snip**
On the other hand, I think you're wrong in the sense to deny that "they" are indeed making files on a lot of subversive people, people that aren't towing the party line, so to speak. **Snip** I borrowed some dissident materials from the local library, where my ex girlfriends mother works, when she saw what I was borrowing, she said that they would probably put a red-flag in the system on me.
** Snip**
So even if we don't all have MIB's following us around, I would definately think that we would be on governmental listings as subversive or dissident, probably for posting on ATS even, (someone once called it A Tracking System,) also the fact remains "they" can monitor us very easily even without having some hired goons follow us around.

Thanx for your response, Dr Bones! Well it's obviously clear that when we compare our posts that we don't agree that the government or one of their agencies are keeping records on us.

It's a known fact that the US government keep an eye on the Internet, looking for key words concerning possible terrorist attacks. Now let's say they're using the same tactic to record people interested in aliens, UFO's and all their possible secrets.
Using this tool we get an idea of the amount of information they're looking at... (Note that this tool is not very accurate, but it gives you an idea.)

In February 2006 there were 131,000 searches on the word "UFO". 100,000 searches on "alien". (And 1,500 on "Alien Porn"
) "Area 51" were searched 50,000 times. And let me remind you that this is for one month only, and does not include variations. So we're looking at a huge amount of information here. Now, they need to collect all the IP addresses and the owners of the IP addresses - and fish out those using proxy servers and anonymous proxy servers. And let's say that they have specific books they "watch" or flag in all the libraries all over the world. And that comes to a total of 20,000 (completely random number) additional names.

So now they have a huge list of people that were at some stage in February interested in something the government may be hiding... What do they do with all these names? Do psychological profiling to see if they are possible threats? Do history checks to see if they were involved in ET encounters? Who knows?! All we know is that they'll be left with a whole lot of information to do something with.

Let's take someone like you or me for example. I read my first book on the paranormal at the age of 10. I lost count during the past 16 years - and that's just books. Now, if they're flagging names my name should be in bright flashing red letters, and I suppose your name as well. But is it? No. Because it would be meaningless to keep our names on some kind of list, because they know we can do squad. We're small change, so to speak.

And they're right! What could you (or I or anyone else for that matter) do with any information we find in the Library? Or the Internet? Nothing. It's in the public domain. Anyone can get to it. Most people know it's there. They're just not interested.

If you've got something that belongs to the Government that threatens the truth to come out, you'll know it. If you think you know the truth because of something you read in a book or books, you're probably not of any interest to the gov.

Think they've got the power when it comes to the Internet? Just look at the amount of paedophiles threatening our children in cyberspace, and you'll realize that the authorities may not be winning the battle.

So, I'm afraid Dr Bones, I can't agree with you that they're keeping a close watch on each of us.


Originally posted by watch_the_rocks
To think we are all numbers is totally right. What do a few hundred governments care about the 6-7 billion people on this planet? Could you imagine half the planets population employed to keep tabs on the other half?!


And still, there are hundreds, nay, thousands thinking they're being watch. I don't think they did their maths properly. Can you imagine the logistics and amounts of money we're talking about if what you're saying where true...



Originally posted by Dock6
But as far as being a mere number is concerned, remaining as such is the smart option. Flying under the radar, honing the ability to blend with the scenery, enables one to quietly do quite a bit of righteous damage

Indeed. It's a difficult situation. On the one hand we want to be noticed. We want to be popular. We want to be a Tom Cruise (although his sanity can also be questioned), David Icke, Larry King or even a Valhall. (Depending on your definition of popularity and being noticed...) And on the other hand we're paranoid, and it scares us to be followed and watched... But I'm with you. The highest trees catch the most wind.


Originally posted by NotClever
Gemwolf, don't ask why, I just thought some Seger went along good with your post.

Ah yes. Like sugar with coffee. When reading some replies the movie "A brilliant mind" came to mind as well. Not to forget the "unknown soldier" - can't recall the author.


Originally posted by Enkidu
Where do I find this number? Is it tattooed someplace I can't get a good look at, like the back of my head?

I could tell you but then I'll have to kill you...




And if we get to pick our own number, I'd like 07734, so when you turn it upside-down, it'll read "hello."




posted on Apr, 11 2006 @ 07:39 AM
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I didn't mean that they are keeping a close watch on all of us, but that dissident behaviour and writing dissident literature will probably get you labeled as a dissident, not that they are paying attention to everything you write, say or do, but that they are probably aware of you.

Just for another example, my father and a very good friend of his were both fairly "big guys" in the fields of construction and engineering in Melbourne from the 70's and onward, anyway, neither of them could be considered dissident or subversive, even in the least extreme sense of the term. To be more blunt, they were both simply hard working business men, looking to make some money...

My fathers friend got offered a fairly lucrative position with a mining firm, and took the job, however when he turned up for his first day, they sent him away because ASIO had stopped by for a visit and told his new employers that he was a radical....Why? Because he had several issues of the communist worker newspaper delivered to his house, purely out of interests sake.

To summarise, simply for reading some "dissident" material, he was labeled as a communist radical, when he is about as far at the other end of the spectrum as you can get, in other words, to a true communist radical, he would definately be considered a capatalist pig!

Nevertheless, a top government police agency felt the need to warn his employers that they suspected he had communist leanings. Extreme no? And this was back in the 70's!!! Imagine how much more effective Big Brother is these days...

So whilst I highly enjoy reading your posts, and agree with you for much of them, I have to say that I personally believe that the level of surveillance is far more effective than you give "them" credit for.


Either way, Keep up the Great Work Gemwolf!!



posted on Apr, 11 2006 @ 08:02 AM
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You do make a good point Dr B. And it forced me to think twice about everything I said. But in the end I'll stick to what I believe until some guys in black suits throws me in a black van and interrogates me about what I know whilst shining a spotlight in my eyes. Personally I've yet to come across evidence that government agencies pick on rebellious individuals. You've had some experience(s) that made you believe that someone/"they" are watching certain habits/material of Joe Public, and will act on certain unwanted behaviour, so you have every right to believe that.
But do you believe that they are watching your every move (concerning information) and that they will act against you if you come to "close" to certain information/truths?

I must agree with you that they should - if they don't - keep a close eye on a collection of very "special" reading material, like say for example "How to make a suicide bomb"... But where do you (they) draw the line as to what is "red flag" material and what not?

PS Don't confuse this with an argument. This is plain enjoyable discussion! Thanks for making it such.



posted on Apr, 12 2006 @ 09:12 AM
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Argument? I try to keep my cool when debating, writing about something while emotional leads to me not getting my points across eloquently enough.

Plus I try not to let people get the best of me anyway, don't want to give them the satisfaction, I guess my motto is stress less.

Not that we're arguing anyway...


Sorry I don't actually have time tonight to go into a detailed discussion here, I'll try and get back to this tommorow however.

No I don't believe that they are watching my/our every move concerning information, but they are probably keeping an eye on what information is out there. I don't expect the men in black to turn up at my house and haul me away for questioning, but then again, I don't really know that much...


Or do I?

If I were a more high profile person, and distributing my beliefs to a wider audience then I would be more worried, but as it is, I am a simple internet conspiracy theorist, and aspiring jazz musician/music teacher.

On the other hand, I do believe that my name is probably on a government red flag list somewhere, because of websites I visit, library books I have borrowed and conversations I have had on the phone. I don't believe this has warranted enough for them to feel any need to watch me.

However, if they start rounding up dissident citizens or "people of interest" I might start to worry, pack up my horns, and head for the hills....



posted on Apr, 12 2006 @ 03:11 PM
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Interesting discussion Gemwolf, but I kind of err on the paranoid end of the spectrum.
not really for myself (what do I know? NOTHING) but just in general...

See, I think it is much easier to keep tabs on people these days so it doesn't take half the population to keep tabs on the other half. With computers it is so much more simplified. I agree that the government is not interested in Joe Blow etc....to an extent....but I disagree that in general people and their actions and statements and views are not monitored.

I think of it like this-like playing battleship on GBA...it was once my strategy if enough random shots were hits in my first attack and hit enough different ships of my opponent, I'd not sink any of them on my next turns and raise their suspicions or make my advantage known. I'd turn my attention elsewhere and look for ships I hadn't hit. I'd bide my time hitting them all pretty equally, until in my last turn or two (depending on how lucky my opponent is) I could sink them all.

I don't know, OK, bad analogy but thats how my brain works today-too much GBA. It just seems each time a person is involved in something that may be seen as a dissident type action as Drbones was speaking of, it is flagged like a "hit" on us, and no, not much interest in those little flags...a hit here or there... as in who is checking out a copy of what book etc, but with computer's cross referencing things...eventually enough hits in different areas by one person and...well, who knows...some attention will be drawn.

Us citizens just being a number to government indeed, but an identifying number (social security in the U.S. perhaps) 'in the system' is still each of us represented... and when there are more and more hits on you, your number is going to come up (hopefully your number wont "be up'
) and your ship is going to be sunk. The ship being your anonymity to the government agencies who would monitor such.

In battleship a little song plays drawing attention to that fact when enough hits have sunk a ship...in life who knows, how or what happens, but I dare say enough hits of differing types mind you, and something is going to sound to draw attention to you.

No, no one is going to monitor the every move of the average citizen or look for those who wear tin foil, but simply enough hits flagging someone, could lead to an interest in the individual at that point, and warrant some surveillance or background checking...some personal attention by someone.

So someone, somewhere, is going to take note of you and suddenly you are not going to be skating under the radar so easily...until cleared...which means perhaps merely that first 'alarm' is shut off, and your number is put back in the system until such time a new alarm rings for your actions causing more hits.

As for me...I wonder sometimes if I am paranoid enough! I've even asked someone once, and they said if I was paranoid enough to ask, my paranoia level was probably elevated enough beyond reason to be considered sufficient.


But I had recently had some strange happenings like a political thread I made on an AOL board being completely removed without a trace. A bunch of garbage had been written on both sides of an issue and I had written something right up the middle calling into question the governments motives and addressing both sides etc, and there were a few that posted on that thread agreeing and finding it accurate, insightful, scary, etc., and bumping it to stay on top and get proper attention...

...and shortly afterward I rec'd an odd email phishing for more information from me....saying they read my thread on the AOL politics board and would like to read more of my thoughts and asking if I had literature, a website, or where could they read more about me and my ideas. Very short and to the point and not personal or friendly-just weird and cold and a bad phishing vibe.

I went to my thread to see if/what they had posted there but, *poof* it had disappeared. It had lasted about an hour or so and was gone completely without a trace. It was truly bizarre. I had the person who originally had called my attention to the board and had been the first fan of my thread to see if they could find it, but they confirmed it was G-O-N-E and suddenly I felt that tickle on the back of my neck, you know? Can't help it. Felt like a "hit."

When the FBI showed up at my door, they were quite forthright and it wasn't about me. An overweight middle aged man in gray slacks, white shirt and tie. Actually, he didn't make it to my door, in my paranoia, I asked him what he wanted before he could get out of his car about 100 feet away in my drive...he shouted "just a minute" and said he would tell me when he got to the porch.

I said no he would tell me now and he did. At that point he held up his ID which I couldn't even see yet and identified himself as FBI and explained as he walked up he wasn't in the habit of declaring that from such a distance but since I had pressed him he had. I explained I needn't worry about what the neighbors thought obviously. (I live in the woods with no neighbors. Geez...that paints a pretty picture of some reclusive paranoid nut, huh? It's not the case-me and my family just enjoy privacy and nature.)

He invited himself in despite my reluctance, and sat at the table to ask his questions about someone else-doing a routine background check he said-and chatted pleasantly, told me I was honest as he is trained to know otherwise (stroking his own ego?) and left. I am confidant it wasn't about me though.

However, I have also had two men in suits come to my place of work "looking for me" -yeah I know could it sound more stereotypically MIBish? LMAO But that is the way it happened as described by one of my bosses- a manager, and here is the funny thing...or the funny things...

First, no one at my work knew of my interest in Area 51 or ANY conspiracies etc. They really knew so little about me I don't even know if they knew I served in the military or worked as a civilian for the government either. So it's not like they were pulling a prank on the paranoid, you know? I actually hadn't been very paranoid at all...until then!

The second funny thing was I NEVER figured out who the men were. These men who were "looking" for me, never called my home or came by for a visit to look for me there.

My manager had said they just showed up at my work "looking for me" and when I was not there, casually asked a few questions about me and how well she knew me and then left. They were described as average men, young to middle aged and dressed in dark suits, white shirts and ties.

I joked that maybe it was Mormon missionaries (two men in suits, right?) but my manager had a funny look like she didn't think I was taking it seriously enough and thought I was hiding something and she didn't find it so funny.

Still I joked and said, "well, I guess the MIB finally found me then" and she raised an eyebrow as if that was more likely than missionaries and as if she thought I was hiding something now! It was bizarre.

Anyway, yes, if you know something, you know you've a right to be paranoid, so most of us should know we can rest easy right?

...and if you are looking for something, you're fine too... unless you get too close to truth...to actually knowing something...most don't though!

So the best way to stay under the radar and not get enough hits for the points to add up to actually warranting some individualized attention is to play dumb. But I don't think it's wise to think the radar doesn't exist.

Don't think there isn't a system set up to know when enough and diverse enough flagged hits spell out personalized attention here or there for someone...somewhere...sometimes... it happens. Best bet is to just play dumb, we're all in good company when it comes to conspiracy theories-so act like an idiot or a nut job and camouflage yourself as such.


Anyone can do that much- play dumb...I'm damn good at it myself ! And I'm not even playing!
So people shouldn't be so paranoid sure... but nothing wrong with a bit of precaution induced lite paranoia.




posted on Apr, 13 2006 @ 07:10 AM
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Ah, thanks for your post t2m! The quality I would expect from you!
Thanks for sharing your experiences. It gave me something to think about. Personal experiences say more than theories and speculation, doesn't it?

And this response includes you as well Dr B!


I'm not denying that some sort of government agency probably has some sort of Watchdog that keeps an eye on what kind of information is going round. What I'm questioning is how this information is gathered and what is done with it. Recently we saw the whole AT&T and NSA (?) debacle. This should tell us that the government does not have it's own means to watch Internet specifics. Why on earth would they need AT&T's database then?

We know that Credit Card companies, insurance companies, etc. are watching our Internet behaviour. They do this through Spyware, Spiders, Yahoo, Google and all kinds of clever information gathering methods. All of this goes through processes, program code, data mining, etc. and little human interaction is needed. But in the end they are left with a whole lot of statistical information. This information is then sold to other people and at some stage you'll get some sort of add from the company. The point is that it can be done. No question about it.
BUT good luck trying to monitor all the information flow on the entire Internet on a personal basis. We don't have that kind of technology.

So, let's say that the Government has a list... Names. IP addresses. Information looked at. Searches done. T2M suggested that a name might pop out if you raise enough questions and look at enough information. Still... How many people are we talking about here? Let's say 10,000 members on ATS hit that mark. Were 10,000 background checks done? I just don't see "them" having the ability to do it. I must admit - maybe if you stick your nose in some really awkward places, they'll probably be on your back. But the way criminals and missing persons evade the law/government make me doubt that "they" have little control over people and their whereabouts.

But let's leave that there for a moment. Maybe my environment, culture and background lead me to think that it's incomprehensible for any government to want to "get" to any individual to harm them. It's laughable to think that the South African government might have a group of men in black suits to harass nosey South Africans. Pft. How ridiculous. It's this lack of interest in South African paranormal and conspiracies that forces me to keep up to date with the rest of the world, and use my own background, experiences and common sense as point of reference.

Yet, we talk about “the government” as if it’s some inhuman force we don’t understand. We forget that “they” are only people to. “They” have families and kids of their own. They’re not evil emotionless robots out to destroy the whole population. (Or are they?!) What drives these people? Why do they do what they do? Money? Loyalty to the government? Or do they really know something we don’t know? How do you keep one of these “agents” to turn on them? Or are talking NWO? Secret societies? Illuminati?? Are they - the government – willing to protect their secrets with such force that human life no longer matters?

If you look at the issues surrounding a person on death row to “protect” him and his rights… Would the same government whose soul purpose is to take care of the masses, have such little regard for human life to protect their secrets? Is any secret worth human life?

It’s no secret that Americans is some of the most paranoid people on the planet. And they have every reason to be, because it seems like their government has more secrets than Microsoft Windows has bugs. But is the paranoia really necessary to the level that they fear for their own lives, just because they have a passionate interest in UFOs?

I wonder.



posted on Apr, 13 2006 @ 11:31 AM
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I like the thought on insanity. In all my reading I have pondered the absolute non stop paranoia that embodies some. I have always wondered about the chaos factor if two worlds mashed and everyone's worst fears would come alive just by having the fear itself or feeding off other peoples fears. Kind of makes sense if there was a person or thing that would do this for all of us so we would fear it and not ourselves. See what I am getting at? Anyway I am falling off the main subject on hand.

Sincerly,
Number 216 section 1296

[edit on 13-4-2006 by nsawantsmedead]



posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 11:14 AM
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Originally posted by Gemwolf

I'm not denying that some sort of government agency probably has some sort of Watchdog that keeps an eye on what kind of information is going round. What I'm questioning is how this information is gathered and what is done with it. Recently we saw the whole AT&T and NSA (?) debacle. This should tell us that the government does not have it's own means to watch Internet specifics. Why on earth would they need AT&T's database then?


But don't miss the bigger picture Gemwolf...they do have an interes obviously, and do use whatever means are available...like Google, At&T, etc..the branches/agencies are gathering statistical data in every way they can. No they are not spying on everyone's computers...but they are doing the best they can right now, aren't they? Illegal wiretapping-to internet data-they are doing whatever they can, and these are just the things WE KNOW about.

There are many ways to get a pulse on the people and 'flag and tag' certain things. Again, it's about the big picture, a combination of a few factors, but sure, excluding having any REAL VERIFIABLE TRUTH of a conspiracy or something, most people are pretty dang "safe" and it's all a matter of how much do you value your privacy, not if you wear a tin foil hat.



I laugh but seriously, privacy is a HUGE issue, and so is profiling. There is a part of the government that all the paranoids fear, but it is the part that would not be interested in them AT ALL really, because really they aren't any type of real threat are they? No, not to the government at least, or the affiliated agencies that work to protect the ways things are run and done. Especially the average nut job.

Then there is the lesser of the two evils of managing information and keeping tabs on people, and people don't give that lesser evil enough credit or thought, IMO. Call me paranoid!



Originally posted by Gemwolf
We know that Credit Card companies, insurance companies, etc. are watching our Internet behaviour. They do this through Spyware, Spiders, Yahoo, Google and all kinds of clever information gathering methods. All of this goes through processes, program code, data mining, etc. and little human interaction is needed. But in the end they are left with a whole lot of statistical information. This information is then sold to other people and at some stage you'll get some sort of add from the company. The point is that it can be done. No question about it.
BUT good luck trying to monitor all the information flow on the entire Internet on a personal basis. We don't have that kind of technology.


LOL thinks you. I am not saying that they are monitoring all the information on the entire Internet on a personal basis, however do not be fooled into thinking certain technologies do not exist. Granted half of the people working for the government agencies they do would say certain technology does not exist or else their jobs would be easier-but really...well, not speaking about the Internet really, but in general, just don't think the "cat being out of the bag" about an issue is indicative of the depth of the issue, or technology involved or even if speaking of Internet, that the govt being in bed with Google or At&T is the extent of how far they are able, or have gone. It's just silly to think so. It's just what we are allowed to know/have managed to know.

Now, back to my other point, of course the lesser evil (of information management) is not going to be following you personally around in an unmarked van, (usually!
) etc or that interested in YOU personally as to warrent any type of investigation or interviews about you or with you etc. You as the average joe paranoid are simply not going to warrant them wasting any actually resources/man hours in any type of such personal surveilance or attention....they actually don't know you exist or want to-

We are as you say Gemwolf, just a number.

However in the information age, your number is useful in profiling you. All of the statistical data gathered is done so to feed the "information machine" as it were-computers where statistical data gathered can be stored, and cross referenced, and linked via social security number, IP's addresses and other personally identifying means, to help identify those who meet certain profiles, or to help create profiles, or gauge a pulse demographically.

.. and its not all about who is intersted in UFO's or conspiracy sites, or who checks out certain flagged books, but all of that helps add up to certain profiles when taken into consideration with other gatethered information.

The government has, wants, collects data on everything. Who has guns, who works under the table for cash, who invests their money and where is it invested, who cheats on their taxes (some are allowed to get away with it, for the sake of undetected profiling) who votes, doesn't vote, goes to meetings of this or that type, etc.

I say this not being paranoid but because I was once employed to gather data...for statistical purposes only of course, on a randomly chosen basis of course. *cough*

Anyway, seems if a certain IP address is consistantly hitting certain hot spots, and or a social secuirty number is likewise linked to more than one particular flagged item, then that IP or SS# can be tagged for a computer to notice further flags of practices.

Perhaps it's just elevated to a level where it has met a certain criteria that one more flag in area 1, 2, oe 3 perhaps, will warrent the computer to mark it for being elgible for man hours to be approved for a human to review the information, and prioritize it manually, or deprioritize it, or otherwise classify it properly for the future in case it is tagged again for revue.

Not that the individual is a threat, but "their number" now is categorized differently than before, and now new hits, new flags mean something new for that number than say someone who had never been tagged for review only raised a few flags, hit a few hot spots etc.

So you are right when you speak in statistical numbers, and the odds of each of us ever warranting any man hours for review, but it happens, and is greatly aided by computers.

The biggest thing is people say "how could they?" and "Why would they?" "Don't be silly" (or so paranoid
)without realizing things done today are things people feared in the past...likewise...what is being done today often even by those involved in doing them...are not seen for what they are...for what their future use will be...they don't see the long term goal-or threat. They don't see the big picture.

Others don't know what they see, but they feel the prick of paranoid uncertainty...nothing wrong with that.

And the nut jobs think the sky is falling...but fact is, it may be...just slowly...


and the true crazies...well, they're just crazy, aren't they?
They are sure someone counts the times their refrigreator light comes on and how often they flush their toilets.

Ah, I've got to go get some fresh air now. Thanks Gemwolf





[edit on 14-4-2006 by think2much]



posted on Apr, 18 2006 @ 05:20 AM
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A bit of a belated reply...


Originally posted by think2much
Now, back to my other point, of course the lesser evil (of information management) is not going to be following you personally around in an unmarked van, (usually!
) etc or that interested in YOU personally as to warrent any type of investigation or interviews about you or with you etc. You as the average joe paranoid are simply not going to warrant them wasting any actually resources/man hours in any type of such personal surveilance or attention....they actually don't know you exist or want to-

We are as you say Gemwolf, just a number.


Reading your reply, I realise that we don't really differ in opinion. That was pretty much the point I was trying to make. Many ATS "average Joes" believe that the/a government is focussing all their time and energy into following and watching that single person, i.e. each and every "average Joe". We just differ a bit on the amount of Information we think they're keeping on each of us...




Originally posted by think2much
LOL thinks you. I am not saying that they are monitoring all the information on the entire Internet on a personal basis, however do not be fooled into thinking certain technologies do not exist. Granted half of the people working for the government agencies they do would say certain technology does not exist or else their jobs would be easier-but really...well, not speaking about the Internet really, but in general, just don't think the "cat being out of the bag" about an issue is indicative of the depth of the issue, or technology involved or even if speaking of Internet, that the govt being in bed with Google or At&T is the extent of how far they are able, or have gone. It's just silly to think so. It's just what we are allowed to know/have managed to know.


Just to give myself some credibility to say that I'm not just making wild statements: I'm one of millions of IT geeks - and most of my projects include research and development of new technologies. That is we don't rely on technologies made by others, or "released" by the government. We get to make and think of new and shiny toys ourselves. Thus I'm aware of what can physically be done without defying any kind of scientific "law" and what kind of technology cannot be achieved with what we know. But then - what do I know? You don't know what you don't know, until you know what you didn't know. Or something like that?

That said - I'm also aware of the handful of "super computers" with amazing processing power. And no one wants to let slip what exactly it is these computers do. And it's no secret that many of them are Government funded. We can only guess what they're up to. Do they have the processing power to watch all information flow on the Internet? Maybe - probably. Do they have the infrastructure? No. Remember that any flow in a process is only as fast as its fastest component. The USA may have the network infrastructure. And this is a big maybe. The UK - sure. But to bring it all together? Cannot be done. Not right now. Ah - you say they may have something I don't know about... Sure I can think up a few science fiction gadgets. How would I know what kind of cool gadgets any government is hiding from us... But it's not only the government that "invents" stuff. (Or did they really get the microwave oven from alien visitors?) If a technology was "invented" by the government it can and will be invented by someone else - in many cases the most unlikely suspect.

But we're venturing to far from the topic. Apologies. The fact that the government doesn't know everything tells me that they don't know everything about all of us. Everyone has been avoiding the problems of crime, terrorism and missing persons, which the government(s) cannot control. Bin Laden is somewhere out there... Err... Bad example. A tower of conspiracy theories follows that one. Fact is, that there's just to many holes in the government's information base for me to admit that they know everything about me.

But as I said, in the end we don't really disagree on this matter, do we?
This topic is just too complex to explain in a couple of posts... I must admit that personally just jump from one thought to the other, as I'm not exactly sure how to put the huge information "conspiracy" into words.


Originally posted by nsawantsmedead
I like the thought on insanity. In all my reading I have pondered the absolute non stop paranoia that embodies some. I have always wondered about the chaos factor if two worlds mashed and everyone's worst fears would come alive just by having the fear itself or feeding off other peoples fears. Kind of makes sense if there was a person or thing that would do this for all of us so we would fear it and not ourselves. ...
Number 216 section 1296

Ah yes. But the question arises, exactly when are you paranoid enough to be classified as "insane"? And is paranoia = fear? Where do you draw the line between reasonable - and rational - paranoia, and when are you just a UFO nut?



posted on Apr, 24 2006 @ 10:15 AM
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Originally posted by Gemwolf
A bit of a belated reply...


Ditto. I only get on ATS once or twice a week anymore.


Originally posted by Gemwolf
Reading your reply, I realise that we don't really differ in opinion. That was pretty much the point I was trying to make. Many ATS "average Joes" believe that the/a government is focussing all their time and energy into following and watching that single person, i.e. each and every "average Joe". We just differ a bit on the amount of Information we think they're keeping on each of us...


Not even that really. Especially when you say "each of us" as each of us, or "most of us" are so below the radar-where we belong-not having any man hours wasted on us. Even in the work I did gathering statistical info, you know it wasn't about the individual so much even then-for some yes, and other's were paranoid in vain it was all about JUST them specifically, but really it was a guage, a pulse and each respondenet of course represented 100's if not 1000's of "average joes" for that purpose.


Originally posted by Gemwolf
Just to give myself some credibility to say that I'm not just making wild statements: I'm one of millions of IT geeks - and most of my projects include research and development of new technologies. That is we don't rely on technologies made by others, or "released" by the government. We get to make and think of new and shiny toys ourselves.


Oh stop tootin' your own horn.


Just kiddin!


Originally posted by Gemwolf
Thus I'm aware of what can physically be done without defying any kind of scientific "law" and what kind of technology cannot be achieved with what we know.


I'll buy that to a degree...


Originally posted by Gemwolf
But then - what do I know? You don't know what you don't know, until you know what you didn't know.


Exactly!



Originally posted by Gemwolf
That said - I'm also aware of the handful of "super computers" with amazing processing power. And no one wants to let slip what exactly it is these computers do. And it's no secret that many of them are Government funded. We can only guess what they're up to. Do they have the processing power to watch all information flow on the Internet? Maybe - probably. Do they have the infrastructure? No.


I don't think it's about watching everything and everyone though. I think it is about watching somethings, some places and some people... and creating a system for prioritizing things to warrent closer scrutiny etc.


Originally posted by Gemwolf
Remember that any flow in a process is only as fast as its fastest component. The USA may have the network infrastructure. And this is a big maybe. The UK - sure. But to bring it all together? Cannot be done. Not right now.


I am not saying Big Brother is a huge supercomputer somewhere and watching everything everyone does on the internet and at the grocery store and in their bank accounts (yet
) I am saying flagging certain actions, and watching certain things on the internet, as well as following certain keywords are a reality, and having the ability to also have access to people's banking habits are a reality as well, and who knows where it will eventually lead. What the loss of privacy will eventually encompass.


Originally posted by Gemwolf
Ah - you say they may have something I don't know about... Sure I can think up a few science fiction gadgets. How would I know what kind of cool gadgets any government is hiding from us... But it's not only the government that "invents" stuff. (Or did they really get the microwave oven from alien visitors?) If a technology was "invented" by the government it can and will be invented by someone else - in many cases the most unlikely suspect.


Don't think I am under the impression the governemtn invents everything, but I guarantee you they have technological advances you are not aware of, for their own uses, even if not fully useful or functional yet, for military and civilian purposes. I do know they have alot of side projects that go virtually unknown and give all sorts of grants into technology and biotechnology and have done some interesting-to me- research on the subject.


Of course, many others develop and invent things and make technological advances in leaps and bounds outside the government as well, but then the question is: what are they going to do with it? What are the potential uses for it? Well, either way they'll want to try to sell it of course! ..and who is likely to be the highest bidder? Hmmmm? I wonder.


Originally posted by Gemwolf
But we're venturing to far from the topic. Apologies. The fact that the government doesn't know everything tells me that they don't know everything about all of us.


Agreed, but I don't take ALOT of solace in that in the face of my declining privacy.


Originally posted by Gemwolf
Everyone has been avoiding the problems of crime, terrorism and missing persons, which the government(s) cannot control. Bin Laden is somewhere out there... Err... Bad example. A tower of conspiracy theories follows that one.


Actually, conspiracies follow ALL of those topics. Crime-is a necessity. It balances things out, keeps people properly in fear of *something*, and allows jobs for the system, deflects attention when needed, sways opinions or votes when needed, etc...all the while the larger government isn't really concerned with stopping crime entirely at all, just lower it at times, or increasing it other times. It's a tool in itself.


Originally posted by Gemwolf
Fact is, that there's just to many holes in the government's information base for me to admit that they know everything about me.


Of course they don't, nor do they need to (I don't think) Nor about me or most people. But there are a few they do need and want to know about, and furthermore, there is a certain profiling they are interested in that would serve them well, and in the process, many may loose their privacy and anonymity and also because of one's purely intellectual interests (not activists or dissidents) may be wrongly profiled and may incur some attention they don't deserve or really warrant.

...eventually of course...not today...just saying where I think we are headed and why it's not paranoid, nor unwise to think about the loss of our privacy, or the reality, of being profiled-and labled, even as a "conspiracy therorist" or a "paranoid."


Originally posted by Gemwolf
But as I said, in the end we don't really disagree on this matter, do we?
This topic is just too complex to explain in a couple of posts... I must admit that personally just jump from one thought to the other, as I'm not exactly sure how to put the huge information "conspiracy" into words.


Indeed.



posted on May, 3 2006 @ 09:06 AM
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Originally posted by Tha Troubleshoota
They look at open channels, such as phone and internet. They cast a net looking for "hits" and key words (for once the media is right) and if you "hit" several times *AND* make calls to people we don't like (you calling 1-800-Al_Hussein) then you'd get "tagged".

*MAYBE* just maybe at that point you would be bugged. *IF* they felt you were worth the effort. But like all police work, you'd have to make your case about bugging this person and doing "man-on" surveillance.


I just read that on his thread of "I worked for the govt-ask me anything" and thought alot of it it sounded a tad bit familiar.


So, while I take the approach of 'this is how things happen-fear for your privacy' instead, he comes from the side of "it's only like this-no big deal" but either way the info is the same.

Just thought it interesting. But I don't put myself out there like him. Afterall, who am I? Nobody. Just a number. Just a nut job on a conspiracy site.
He's an a real "insider" and he can appease the masses and I wouldn't even dare to try to rouse the masses.

Not mocking him in anyway-I think it's great he's here-I mock myself!


But thought I'd point out he validates my hit and flag and get the man hours approved for surviellance stuff. It's the "flag and tag" of the hits and flags that interest me most anyway-they are surviellance already in of themselves. Here's a snip of similar I had wrote here


Originally posted by think2much
'flag and tag' certain things. (snip) You as the average joe paranoid are simply not going to warrant them wasting any actually resources/man hours in any type of such personal surveilance or attention....(snip)However in the information age, your number is useful in profiling you. All of the statistical data gathered is done so to feed the "information machine"

(snip)
.. and its not all about who is intersted in UFO's or conspiracy sites, or who checks out certain flagged books, but all of that helps add up to certain profiles when taken into consideration with other gatethered information.

Anyway, seems if a certain IP address is consistantly hitting certain hot spots, and or a social secuirty number is likewise linked to more than one particular flagged item, then that IP or SS# can be tagged for a computer to notice further flags of practices.

Perhaps it's just elevated to a level where it has met a certain criteria that one more flag in area 1, 2, oe 3 perhaps, will warrent the computer to mark it for being elgible for man hours to be approved for a human to review the information, and prioritize it manually, or deprioritize it, or otherwise classify it properly for the future in case it is tagged again for revue.


So anyway, where people say it doesn't happen-here are two sides saying it does-the paranoid and the appeasing sides. Now, people have to at least realize it happens...and then decide if it bothers them enough to feel some concern that they loose more and more priivacy each day and that there are such things as hits, flags, tags and survielance....or are appeased enough to think it wouldn't happen to them because they have nothing to hide...etc...

YK?



[edit on 3-5-2006 by think2much]



posted on May, 4 2006 @ 08:31 AM
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Ah... That thread... I read halfway through it, and lost interest for reasons we don't need to mention here. I have my reservations about what is said about "the inside" but I'll leave that unsaid for now as well.

It would be interesting to find out how and where all of this information is kept. I'm - as agreed earlier - past the point of denying that a "flag and tag" system is plausible. So let's say - again - that a person warrants surveillance. The next question would be at what point a "suspect" person warrants further action? And even more so, what would "further action" be? Having to look into a flashy thingy? Being kept in a dark room while being questioned with a bright light shining in your eyes? When did this "flag and tag" method come into play? Before or after certain terrorist attacks? Makes one wonder? The question if 9/11 had an effect on privacy arrives again...

I would like to ask the "insider" person some of these questions, but I promised myself to leave the thread alone for more than one reason...



posted on May, 4 2006 @ 09:37 AM
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Originally posted by Gemwolf
Ah... That thread... I read halfway through it, and lost interest for reasons we don't need to mention here. I have my reservations about what is said about "the inside" but I'll leave that unsaid for now as well. (snip)

I would like to ask the "insider" person some of these questions, but I promised myself to leave the thread alone for more than one reason...




And what reason would that be?


OK, I will try to stick to leaving it at
for now.

Like I said not mocking anyone....


No, really, truly I'm not!

Anyway, I have *inside* information as well yk? Right? I was military and worked as a civilian for govt, though I'd never call myself an 'insider' thats for sure! I've had friends that worked for the FBI too
But I thought it funny to read what I had recently been talking about here re: certain hits causing flag and tag acton warranting surveilance etc...



I think we are on the same page anyway Gemwolf-just came here to spout off to you about it...and sometimes I have a habit of writing a posts on topic that really have another point, but that point isn't always recognized yk?!?!?!?!! spelling it out here I guess-but it's kind of aggravating when the subtle point is missed so often!



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