Starseed theory

Originally posted by mojo4sale

The sea, however, never returned to its original limits. (Goonganjie tribe).’”
Although Moses had never previously heard a story about Gunya the theme
was familiar to him – many Yidinyji stories are concerned with rising seas and
what olden times people did to try to stop them.
Told by Dick Moses in the coastal dialect; recorded at Yarrabah on 22 August
1973 (duration 10 minutes).

I found it amusing that the aboriginal fella telling the story is called Moses!!

www.didgeridoos.net.au...

Hi Mojo, ty for this...I am also surprised at the name as it is an unusual name with respect to Indigenous names. I couldnt open the link, but will source what I find with my uni pass word... its can be a whole new world sometimes with a pass word lol

I wanted to add if you interested (off topic for a mo) some recommended reading...

Anything at all written by Peter Read is highly recommended! so, if you walk past and see a book with his name...grab it, you will be glad you did.

Andrew Marcus is also exceptional. Debra Rose, Bain Attwood also. Mulvaney provides an absolute accurate account of Fraser Island...one that will make you feel ill after reading it. Reynolds gets 5 stars from me also.

www.aboriginalhistory.org... This is a pretty good list with respect to ethnohistory...but be warned, much of it is very disturbing. I have been known to throw down quite a few books and storm around the house...it generally takes me days to calm down.

I think you will love this:
The Spirit of Things: 10 October 2004 - The Seven Stars of the Pleiades
Seven Sisters

You can either read or download the media and listen:

Munya Andrews: Yes, they, according to my grandmother, they are our relatives and she’d say that we come from the Pleiades, that that’s our relatives. You know, I mean you grow up as a little kid and you hear these stories, and I grew up also believing that as well.

ref above

Rachael Kohn: Didn’t she believe in the Seven Root Races of Mankind? Is that connected to the Pleiades?

Munya Andrews: Well yes, it is, because when you think about, when I look at the common themes about the Pleiades, of course the very fact that there are seven sisters; some stories there’s six, but largely seven, and that’s also another theme that’s interplayed between six and seven, that is tied up with all sorts of meaning.

But you can’t ignore the fact that you are talking about seven sisters, and when we look at the number seven and it’s the magic use of it in our language and culture, you know we talk of seven heavens, and seven rays of the sun, and seven gates of Ishtar, and so on, for me there was something in that I had to look at. And I again looked at Madame Blavatsky, and what she has to say. And she basically calls the Pleiades, the Atlantids, after Atlas the father and after Atlantis. And basically says that they stand, they’re a symbol, if you like, of this notion of there having been seven rounds of creation.

a little of the interview...

I will leave it there for the moment...
oh but add this to your fav's cos it is exceptional site

Nat

oh here is the abc link with a list of other programs

List


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Thanks Nat i will definately check those out. Just for your own info I was born in Katherine in the NT and lived in and around tennant creek and alice springs for most of my childhood in the 60's and 70's and spent alot of time with local aborigines in those areas. My grandfather had a cattle station and later worked as a park ranger at simpsons gap for over 20 yrs. Have heard and still remember sitting around a camp fire and listening to dreamtime stories first hand. Hard to express the feeling you would get sitting out in the open with a million stars overhead and the sounds of the animals and birds while listening to these stories.
Sorry for rambling off topic but have really enjoyed watching this thread. Keep up the good work.

Cheers
M4S

Originally posted by mojo4sale
Have heard and still remember sitting around a camp fire and listening to dreamtime stories first hand. Hard to express the feeling you would get sitting out in the open with a million stars overhead and the sounds of the animals and birds while listening to these stories.
Sorry for rambling off topic but have really enjoyed watching this thread. Keep up the good work.

Cheers
M4S

oh I am green with envy!!!

I was tickled pink to be invited to sit in at ceremony in SA, got to try kangaroo tail and listened to Dreaming stories too that night...It was near the Flinders Ranges; and that is such a special place!! As for the environment, theres nothing quite like it!!

I had heard of the seven sisters but couldnt recollect where I had seen it, glad to have found one source at least...
cheers

Originally posted by mojo4sale

Have heard and still remember sitting around a camp fire and listening to dreamtime stories first hand. Hard to express the feeling you would get sitting out in the open with a million stars overhead and the sounds of the animals and birds while listening to these stories. Cheers
M4S

I saw your testamonial Mojo4sale, and have a question for you.

I was watching a documentary about Abroginies and their knowledge of the Stars, and the camera was focus on an Elder who was accounting for their Past. Since the premise revolved around the stars, most of the topic dealt with this inmind, but in explaining their history, he made reference to "Fish Peoples"who where "swiming in the Skies".

The comment recieved no followup, and the tale went on.

Having the opportunity to listen and partake in such recollections from the Aboriginies you have known, have you every heard of such a thing? Fish Peoples?

Looking forward to your response.

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by Byrd
I found that post, actually, on Usenet and scanned it for more. I'm glad to hear that Castledan is a credible source!

But... what I wanted to find out is whether this piece actually refers to a place called "Atlantis." It could, of course refer to a person or a temple or a lot of other things. Any idea, or is that one sentence the only surviving bit of the play? If so, then that's truly not much evidence of anything.

Byrd,
I can't speak to the credibility of Castleden on this subject, but I believe he has published scholarly works on the Minoans, hasn't he? Anyway, when I said credible, I meant Doug Weller. He's the Director at the Hall of Ma'at discussion forum. Heard of it?
He also operates Doug's Archaeology Site.
Here's a portion of an email I received from the esteemed Mr. Weller in response to a question I posted in the guestbook at his Archaeology Site. Don't be dismayed, when I told him I'd linked him several times at ATS he revealed he's never heard of us:

What's the ATS?

Thanks for your kind words.

Here's all I know:
Castleden points out that Hellanicus wrote a history of Attica 'from the earliest times'. bit that was 683.

But see this comment on his reliability from the 1911 Britannica:
[www.1911encyclopedia.org]

and see this -- which uses some of the above, so...

[en.wikipedia.org]

and [www.bbk.ac.uk]

There are only a few lines left of Hellanicus's Atlantis, which includes the line 'Poseidon mated with Celaeno, and their son Lycus was settled by his father in the Isles of
the Blest and made immortal.' Plato says Poseidon mated with Cleito and had a son Atlas who became ruler of Atlantis. There's also bits about Atlas's daughters and their relationships with various gods.

A transcription and/or translation of Hellanicus Atlantis I fragment is in:

Robert L. Fowler, Early Greek Mythography Volume 1: Text and
Introduction. Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2000. Pp. xlviii,
459. ISBN 0-19-814740-6.

Castleden suggests that Plato may have borrowed from Hellanicus's book, taking the title from it, and that Hellanicus may have borrowed from an earlier Atlantis 'epic', or that both may have borrowed from Solon whose story may have been well known at the time.

Castleden also says in a footnote "Robert (1917) identifies an older fragment of the Atlantis epic in Oxyrhynchus Papyrus II, 1359. These shreds of a pre-Platonic Atlantis legend go a long way towards vindicating Plato's insistence that the tradition he was offering was true."

But there is no Robert (1917) reference in Castleden.

And see here: [www.worldwideschool.org]

Looks as though that fragment is long after Plato.

John V Luce (a Dublin Classicist), in his chapter in Edwin S. Ramage Atlantis: Fact or Fiction, says that Hellanicus used the word "Atlantis" (and he says the title might have been Atlantika or Atlantias) to mean 'daughter of Atlas' and that the work was basically a genealogical one.

Hope that helps.

Doug

The credibility question he raises concerns Hellenikos, apparently, and not Castleden (except for his mention that Castleden provides no Robert (1917) reference concerning the Oxyrhynchus Papyrus II.)

Anyway, there's some more meat for you to chew on.

If you haven't already, I suggest a trip over to Doug's Archaeology Site. I don't have the link for the Hall of Ma'at - apparently they moved or something, but I've been there as well, you'd feel right at home, believe me!

Harte

Hello All

Looking for Sediment records in the Med-Meso Region, I suddenly found the answer to that question Mojo4Sale.

www.meta-religion.com...

It is noted as follows

This universe, created by super-natural beings, had a definite structure of the earth, heavens, and the underworld.

The structure of the Aborigine universe varied little across Australia. It consisted of three planes: the earth, the sky, and the underworld. The earth was circular and flat covered by the dome of the sky which stretched out to the horizon. The sky was the plane upon which super-natural beings or the ancestral-heroes lived. The sky plane was also where the soul of a person went after they died. The Aborigines believed that the sky was a rich country with a plentiful water supply.

So, the Creators who brought live to creation, are Super Natural Beings or Ancestrial Heros who lived in the Sky, which was full of water. Fish People which swan in the skies!

So the lore is there Mojo4Sale.

Have you ever heard of this, and if so, could you tell us what you had been told?

Ciao

Shane

P.S. I hope I have got the New Format for Quotes from Other Sources correct now. Please confirm

Originally posted by Shane
It is noted as follows

This universe, created by super-natural beings, had a definite structure of the earth, heavens, and the underworld.

The structure of the Aborigine universe varied little across Australia. It consisted of three planes: the earth, the sky, and the underworld. The earth was circular and flat covered by the dome of the sky which stretched out to the horizon. The sky was the plane upon which super-natural beings or the ancestral-heroes lived. The sky plane was also where the soul of a person went after they died. The Aborigines believed that the sky was a rich country with a plentiful water supply.

So, the Creators who brought live to creation, are Super Natural Beings or Ancestrial Heros who lived in the Sky, which was full of water. Fish People which swan in the skies!

So the lore is there Mojo4Sale.

Have you ever heard of this, and if so, could you tell us what you had been told?

Hi Shane, the above interpretation is partly right, though i would argue that this is probably a non indigineous interpretation. Most of the creation dreamtime stories that i am familiar with suggest that the ancestral spirits rose from the earth and took the form of animals and plants or semi human form. The earth at this time was blank and formless. The mountains, rivers, lakes and forest were created by the heroic actions of these ancestral spirits.

--Voices of the First Day:
Awakening in the Aboriginal Dreamtime
by Robert Lawlor

The Australian Aborigines speak of jiva or guruwari, a "seed power" deposited in the earth. In the Aboriginal world view, every meaningful activity, event, or life process that occurs at a particular place leaves behind a vibrational residue in the earth, as plants leave an image of themselves as seeds. The shape of the land - its mountains, rocks, riverbeds, and waterholes - and its unseen vibrations echo the events that brought that place into creation. Everything in the natural world is a symbolic footprint of the metaphysical beings whose actions created our world. As with a seed, the potency of an earthly location is wedded to the memory of its origin. The Aborigines called this potency the "Dreaming" of a place, and this Dreaming constitutes the sacredness of the earth. Only in extraordinary states of consciousness can one be aware of, or attuned to, the inner dreaming.

After the ancestors had created the world and all the plants and creatures and the sky , the sun, the moon and the stars they were very tired, some returned to the earth some went into the sky while others become part of the land, these became sacred places or sacred sites. The only dreamtime story that i can think of that relates to fish in the sky would be Fish Moon. This though is the story of how a fish escaped from two selfish women who had caught it for dinner and climbed into the sky and became the moon.

Mind you different tribes do have slightly different stories, though for a country as large as australia there is an amazing amount of consistency between tribes even though they may be seperated by thousands of miles. As i posted earlier there are a number of flood stories in the dreamtime though i think this would have more to do with australia being a largely arid country and the subsequent reliance on water to survive than any global connection to a great deluge. Hope that helps.

Cheers
M4S

Edit for many spelling errors..




[edit on 27/4/06 by mojo4sale]

Originally posted by Shane
I am fully aware it was found in the 1700's and ponder, what does it gain a Frenchman to offer this up? Proving his Enemy is one of God's People.

If you knew it was from a source from the 1700's then why present it as though it was a Biblical text? Several people who were less familiar with the Bible than I am thoght it was in the Bible.

www.angelfire.com...

A third document now, different than the others in some respects. By the way, I googled for "acts" and "paul" and "istanbul" and "turkey" and didn't get any hits or announcements about this significant find. I hit Google Scholar to see if anyone had written about it in a journal, including Biblical journals.

I found nothing.

So we have evidence that shows up ... and vanishes? Whose hands did it end up in? That last one is quite important, because there have been faked documents produced and then sold to people of great wealth -- a number of such frauds showed up in Christian literature between 100 AD and 1900 AD.

So what do YOU know about the document?

And why would you present the document as evidence if you knew it was no older than perhaps 1700 AD -- and why present it without qualifying?

www.asis.com...

Now you show us a third version, and seem to be picking the one you prefer. I realize that translation isn't an exact science, but there's some significant differences. So -- what does the original document look like?

What language is it in? Are there any inconsistancies in it? Where is the document now? What, exactly, are the words on it? Is it in Greek (what kind of Greek?) and what linguistic and regional quirks are in it that may identify its origin?

www.zazzle.com...

You know, I've never seen a tee shirt slogan produced as evidence of something before. It's a novel idea, I suppose, and I if this is the level of evidence that you like, then I could dig up tee shirts as evidence of something or another, I'm sure.

But, I don't think I will use tee shirt slogans as evidence in my thesis defense next Friday. I'm pretty sure that tee shirt slogans won't pass muster as answers to things the professors ask, unless the topic happens to be "popular culture" (which is not the topic of my thesis.)

Seems I find Druid's mentioned in the Text, but was not surprised by the New Age Speak version you offered. Had a good laugh looking at that thing. And you call it a bible.

Actually, the Christian site I found it on listed it as a legitimate version of the Bible. I included it only for completeness' sake. Perhaps you could take the matter up with them.

Originally posted by Harte
I can't speak to the credibility of Castleden on this subject, but I believe he has published scholarly works on the Minoans, hasn't he? Anyway, when I said credible, I meant Doug Weller. He's the Director at the Hall of Ma'at discussion forum. Heard of it?

Oh yes! It hasn't been updated in a gazillion years, last time I looked. Glad to see the new site, though.

He also operates Doug's Archaeology Site.
Here's a portion of an email I received from the esteemed Mr. Weller in response to a question I posted in the guestbook at his Archaeology Site.
John V Luce (a Dublin Classicist), in his chapter in Edwin S. Ramage Atlantis: Fact or Fiction, says that Hellanicus used the word "Atlantis" (and he says the title might have been Atlantika or Atlantias) to mean 'daughter of Atlas' and that the work was basically a genealogical one.

That was actually my un-educated guess; that it was a genaeology when we got the bits about gods and mating.

except for his mention that Castleden provides no Robert (1917) reference concerning the Oxyrhynchus Papyrus II.)

Would be interesting to find out what that "robert" refernce was. First name, perhaps?

Thanks for the link!

[edit on 28-4-2006 by Byrd]

Originally posted by Byrd

except for his mention that Castleden provides no Robert (1917) reference concerning the Oxyrhynchus Papyrus II.)

Would be interesting to find out what that "robert" refernce was. First name, perhaps?

Thanks for the link!

You're welcome.

God, I hope Robert isn't a first name. I'd be so embarassed for Castleden! I mean, how uncool to use a first name as reference. What is he, "Robert's" life partner or something?

Anyway, here's how you get to the Hall of Ma'at:
The Hall of Ma'at

Enjoy

Harte

Byrd

The Tee Shirt was a Joke Hence the

And if you review, I defined this as the Lost Chapter of Acts, and referenced my KJV did not have this Amen. None, other than Nat, and yourself even considered the reference. If Nat has a question, on anything, I would be more than pleased to answer those. Likewise, you have a lot of questions, and I try to answer as many as possible when asked.

But you did not answer, my friend.

What did it gain a Frechman to inspire British Israelism??????

As for the Text in question and how it may apply, I will see what I can find for you my friend. I am sure we can located it, and find an Origin copy somewhere. We just need to look further.

By the what, what is your thesis you present Friday??/


And Mojo4Sale

Thanks for the response, and maybe you could get something in more detail, since you confirm you have heard this. Can you elaborate on this?

I do believe the Link I gave was for the education those wanting to know the Lore, and expect this is a generalized version for the Non Aboriginal Peoples. But I understand what you meant.

And after this, have you heard what took place with those being's swiming in the Skies. I will guess, they disappear shortly after, or at the part where Flood Stories begin, but I will leave this to you to confirm.

This will be important to Nat, at some point.

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by Shane
The Tee Shirt was a Joke Hence the

(silly mode on)Yes, but what's the provenance of that tee shirt? Did it come from a dig? Has it been carbon dated yet? (/silllllllly mode off)

And if you review, I defined this as the Lost Chapter of Acts, and referenced my KJV did not have this Amen.

True, but you didn't also add that it was apocryphal, and it could have been taken as something from the Nag Hammidi material. It's so easy to deceive people and to let them assume things that aren't true.

I think it's only courteous to give as much as you can about any source.

What did it gain a Frechman to inspire British Israelism??????

Oh, but I did -- indirectly. Where did the text end up? As far as I can see, the original manuscript doesn't seem to be ANYwhere.

Let's look at the evidence:
en.wikipedia.org...

The full tale is that:
* Sonnini went off to Turkey
* the Bey gave him permission (a "fiman") to travel. He reproduces this in his book because apparently there's been previous questions about whether he actually traveled to some of the places he wrote about.
* he publishes a book, and eventually dies.
* AFTER his death, a copy of the book shows up in the library of an Englishman, Sir John Newport, MP (Member of Parliament -- a politician) -- after HIS death.
* tucked inside Newport's book is this document.
* the document is actually the English translation. There's no trace of the "original Greek manuscript" -- although it wouldn't be impossible for any gentleman of that era to make a forged Greek document, since Greek and Latin were required subjects for any formally educated young man.
* Sir John was a firm believer in Anglo-Israelism

And that's the proveable history and source of the document.

As for the Text in question and how it may apply, I will see what I can find for you my friend. I am sure we can located it, and find an Origin copy somewhere. We just need to look further.

Perhaps I can ease your search. It's considered a 17th century fraud, even by the current British-Israel world federation (the international group promoting Anglo-Israelism.)

By the what, what is your thesis you present Friday??/

Research on a museum, actually.

There is quite a lot on this

This site only presents the Greek legends... Why is it that Greeky mythology appears to be more credible? I dont feel it is 'fair' that oral cultures are pushed aside.

Pleiades Mythology

Genealogy
The Pleiad(e)s were the seven daughters of Atlas and Pleione, and half-sisters of the Hyades, whose mother was Æthra (`bright sky'; a different Æthra than the mother of Theseus). They were perhaps also half-sisters of the Hesperides, who were daughters of either Night alone, or Atlas and Hesperis (`evening'), or Ceto and Phorcys. Both Pleione and Æthra were Oceanids, daughters of Oceanus and Tethys, the titans who ruled the outer seas before being replaced by Poseidon. Atlas (`he who dares' or `suffers'; from the Indo-European tel-, tla-, `to lift, support, bear'), another titan, led their war against the gods, and was afterward condemned by Zeus to hold up the heavens on his shoulders. The Pleiades were also nymphs in the train of Artemis, and together with the seven Hyades (`rainmakers' or `piglets'; individual Hyad names are not fully agreed upon) were called the Atlantides, Dodonides, or Nysiades, nursemaids and teachers to the infant Bacchus. The Hesperides (`nymphs of the west'), apparently not counted in this, were only three, and dwelled in an orchard of Hera's, from which Heracles fetched golden apples in his eleventh labor.

Ref above

Nice to actually see a reference list provided at the site...

Burnham's Celestial Handbook, Revised & Enlarged Edition, Robert Burnham Jr., 1976, Dover Publications Inc.
Star Names: Their Lore and Meaning, Richard Hinckley Allen, 1899, 1963, Dover reprint (Note: Allen's text on individual Pleiades stars can be found at Alcyone Systems.)
Star Lore of All Ages, William Tyler Olcott, 1911, 1931, G. P. Putnam's Sons, New York
Star Tales, Ian Ridpath, 1988, Universe Books
The Age of Fable, Thomas Bullfinch, 1942, Heritage Press
The Greek Myths, Robert Graves, 1960, Pelican Books
The Reader's Encyclopedia 2/e, William Rose Benet, 1965, Thomas Y. Crowell Company
American Heritage Dictionary, 1965
Fundamentals of Physics 2/e, David Halliday and Robert Resnick, 1986, John Wiley & Sons, New York

Ref above

From that site, I clicked on Ian Ridpath (in ref list):

Ian Ridpath

... Phaenomena (Appearances), written c.275 BC by Aratus of Soli. The Phaenomena of Aratus is based on a book of the same name written the previous century by the Greek scientist Eudoxus of Cnidus. No copies of the book by Eudoxus have been preserved; we have only Aratus’s poem. An English translation by G. R. Mair is available in the Loeb Classical Library series (Harvard University Press and Heinemann). A more recent translation and commentary on the poem is Aratus: Phaenomena by Douglas Kidd (CUP, 1997).

I referred to the French version of the Catasterisms published in 1821 by Abbé Halma. Since then, an English translation has appeared in the book Star Myths by Theony Condos (Phanes Press, Grand Rapids, 1997).

I am impressed by the reference material provided...the link above takes you straight to the sources. This is the contents link: Star Tales

Here is some excerpts, also impressed by the scanned images & links to Ptolemy from The National Maritime Museum, London.

The constellation system that we use today has grown from a list of 48 constellations published around AD 150 by the Greek scientist Ptolemy in an influential book called the Almagest

The early Greek writers Homer and Hesiod (c.700 BC) mentioned only a few star groups, such as the Great Bear, Orion, and the Pleiades star cluster (the Pleiades was then regarded as a separate constellation rather than being incorporated in Taurus as it is today).

the links are fantastic too...
I did see the star constellation 'cassiopeia', which I figure is where the cassiopeans come in...I was very disappointed that turned out to be pfffffff.

History of the Constellations





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[edit on 1-5-2006 by NJE777]

[edit on 1-5-2006 by NJE777]

R.H. Allen's 1899 Star-Names and Their Meanings.

Atlas
27 Tau, SAO 76228, HD 23850, magnitude 3.62, spectral type B8 III (spectroscopic binary).

Pleione
28 Tau, SAO 76229, HD 23862, magnitude 5.09iv, spectral type B8 IVe (variable).

1.

Alcyone
25 eta Tau, SAO 76199, HD 23630, magnitude 2.90, spectral type B7 IIIe.

2.

Asterope
21 Tau, SAO 76159, HD 23432, magnitude 5.80v, spectral type B8 V;
22 Tau, SAO 76164, HD 23441, magnitude 6.43, spectral type A0 Vn.

3.

Celæno
16 Tau, SAO 76126, HD 23288, magnitude 5.46v, spectral type B7 IV.

4.

Elektra
17 Tau, SAO 76131, HD 23302, magnitude 3.70, spectral type B6 IIIe.

The Pirt-Kopan-noot tribe of Australia have a legend of a Lost Pleiad, making this the queen of the other six, beloved by their heavenly Crow, our Canopus, and who, carried away by him, never returned to her home.

5.

Maia
20 Tau, SAO 76155, HD 23408, magnitude 3.87v, spectral type B8 III.

6.

Merope
23 Tau, SAO 76172, HD 23480, magnitude 4.18, spectral type B6 IVe.

7.

Taygeta
20 Tau, SAO 76140, HD 23338, magnitude 4.30v, spectral type B6 IV.

All of the above see www.alcyone.com...

A separate membership issue is also worth mentioning. Mythologically speaking, Atlas and Pleione are not Pleiades, but rather the parents of the Seven Sisters.

www.naic.edu...

The Pleiades star cluster, also known as the Seven Sisters and Messier 45, is a conspicuous object in the night sky with a prominent place in ancient mythology. The cluster contains hundreds of stars, of which only a handful are commonly visible to the unaided eye. The stars in the Pleiades are thought to have formed together around 100 million years ago, making them 1/50th the age of our sun, and they lie some 130 parsecs (425 light years) away. From our perspective they appear in the constellation of Taurus, with approximate celestial coordinates of 3 hours 47 minutes right ascension and +24 degrees declination. For northern hemisphere viewers, the cluster is above and to the right of Orion the Hunter as one faces south, and it transits -- reaches its highest point in the sky, midway between rising and setting -- around 4am in September, midnight in November, and 8pm in January.

www.naic.edu... Ref --> Great site!!!!

www.naic.edu...

www.naic.edu...

www.naic.edu...

The last gif link, see at the bottom of the page there is some fantastic imagery...
Really worth checking out...!

cheers
Nat





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[edit on 1-5-2006 by NJE777]

[edit on 1-5-2006 by NJE777]

Hi Nat, does anyone else find it strange that so many myths from around the world refer to the pleiades as the seven sisters. Why not the seven brothers or seven bears or seven dogs and so on.So many cultures seperated by both time and geography seem to have a common theme when describing this particular constellation.

The seven sisters then decided that they should not cause any more hardship to the remaining people in the tribe by the severe cold so they travelled far into the east, where they found the summer, and sent the warm rays of the sun back to melt the frost and ice.
The Warweenggary then left the earth altogether and travelled into the sky, where the constellation known as the Pleiades still represents their camp. They can be seen every summer and they bring with them pleasant warm weather, after which they gradually disappear towards the west.

www.didgeridoos.net.au...

Karambil climbed a huge pine tree which grew near his camp and hid amongst the topmost branches. Bullabogabun, however, gathered all the wood he could find and piled it into a heap at the base of the tree. He set fire to the sticks and burnt the pine tree to cinders. As the flames reached high into the air, Karambil was carried with them far into the sky, where he remains today near the Warweenggary as the star Alpha Tauri, and he now follows the sisters eternally, just as he did in his youth.

Also found another story for you Nat regarding the Great Flood,

Then came the flood. The water rose up quietly from the sea, until it was higher than the tallest gum tree. It was like a vast blue plain, with only the tops of the mountains standing up above it like islands. The water kept on rising, and finally even the mountain peaks disappeared. The world was one vast, flat sheet of water, and there was no place for the Nurrumbunguttias to live. Many of them were drowned, but others were caught up by a whirlwind which carried them off into the sky, where they became stars, and some, who were gods on earth, became the gods of the sky. Among them was Pund-jil [Bunjil]. The Milky Way was made out of the fires that the Nurrumbunguttias had kindled when they were on earth.

www.astronomy.pomona.edu..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow"> rest of the story here

Is it just coincidence that so many cultures have such similar myths. Hope this stimulates some more thought.

Cheers
Mark

Originally posted by NJE777
There is quite a lot on this

This site only presents the Greek legends... Why is it that Greeky mythology appears to be more credible? I dont feel it is 'fair' that oral cultures are pushed aside.

Well, "oral cultures" don't exactly have their tales documented, and tales change in the telling. And none of the "oral cultures" had a tradition of astronomy to the point where they accurately predicted and measured the track of the stars. You need writing for that. The ol' "bright thingy appears in that square up there...no... not that... THERE!" just doesn't work.

And as for the Greek oriented Pleaides myths, well, our astronomy and a lot of our other sciences came from the Greeks (and then the Romans.) And if the Greeks had a name for it, there was no real reason to run around and find a new name and a new myth for it.

In fact, in Biology, the earlest named species are in Greek. Later, they had Latin names.

thanks for that.. but I was asking I think to make a point! lol

I get so frustrated with the rejection of oral information, for example, the various Indigenous groups relied on art, dance & songs and the information is astonishingly well preserved. I have extensive Indigenous artwork...all tell stories of the past...

I have had quite heated debates over 'white academia', especially regarding translating oral information into English grammar. 'White academia' [it is a politically correct phrase/term] simply does not comprehend the depths of the oral tradition & it does its best, but cannot accomodate Indigenous languages.

Indigenous Art of the Dreamtime

Now, most people wouldnt understand the artwork, but I feel it is wrong for academics to disregard it. People say oh the Greeks have art & drama...well so do the Indigenous peoples...just in a different form. It is only in recent times that academics are starting to recognise the knowledge they have and give that knowledge some respect.

Tula painting is not just art...it is a way of passing down information from generation to generation. Just like our written records. As it is so distant from English it was pushed into some primitive ideology.

The link is great, I hope you like the Art work. I have actually been to see Clifford Possum Tjapaltjarri ' art. It is really funny how, you can sit and look at it and form an opinion of what you think the painting might be saying and then under each painting there is an explanation of each symbol, tula dot... which gives it meaning...

Dreaming

The Tingari are commonly described as a group of ancestral beings, with one or more dominate men or women, who brought law and culture to the people of the western desert regions.

The Tingarri stories recount creation time travels of a particularly important group of elders who taught ritual knowledge to initiates.

These designs are derived from ancient ground and sand paintings and from body decorations. It is said that this knowledge gifted group of men travelled across the country. This painting shows patterns relating to these travels, the pattern show their campsite as they systematically travelled across the country.

This painting forms part of the post initiate teachings for youths today and explains contemporary and traditional customs of the aboriginal people. During the initiation ceremonies, sacred information about the aboriginal Dreamtime are passed on to the initiates.

As these ceremonies are sacred to the Pintupi people, no further information could be given by the artist.

www.jintaart.com.au...

Creation beliefs vary from region to region but generally describe the journeys of ancestral beings, often giant animals or people, over what began as a featureless domain. Mountains, rivers, waterholes, animals and plant species and other natural and cultural resources came into being as a result of events that took place in these Dreamtime journeys. These features today are seen by many Indigenous peoples as confirmation of their creation beliefs. The creation stories explain the origins of the natural world and form the basis of Indigenous peoples' customary laws and the relationship between people and their environment.

Animals and plants are integral part of ancient spirituality and contemporary kinship systems. Most animals and plants are totems to one tribe or another, conferred on clan groups by the spiritual beings. Totems are seen as kin and these kin relationships mean that people must respect and care for their environment.

www.mesa.edu.au... further reading if interested

cheers
Nat

[edit on 2-5-2006 by NJE777]

Just a note, since I'm a For Real Anthropologist:

Originally posted by NJE777
I have had quite heated debates over 'white academia', especially regarding translating oral information into English grammar. 'White academia' [it is a politically correct phrase/term] simply does not comprehend the depths of the oral tradition & it does its best, but cannot accomodate Indigenous languages.

Allow me to disagree, both as an anthropologist with some field experience AND as a professional storyteller (yes, really.)

Now, most people wouldnt understand the artwork, but I feel it is wrong for academics to disregard it.

We don't. In fact, the anthropologists were the ones working to save it from extinction and to save the people and the culture... and I assure you that we're academics down to the bottom of our field note-writing fingertips.

I'd point you to Franz Boas' work on the Tlingit and Haida of the American Northwest (and some traditions and art were preserved only becase of he and his fellow anthropologists) ... and googling on www.scholar.google.com... will show you that there's well over 1500 publications (including books on the rock art and one on the archaeology of the dreamtime) on the aborigines and the Dreamtime:
scholar.google.com...

There's also some huge collections and archives of oral recordings, traditions, photos, costumes, field notes on customs, etc, etc from around the world.

Here's just one of thousands of such collections:
www.nmnh.si.edu...

Originally posted by Byrd
Just a note, since I'm a For Real Anthropologist:

Originally posted by NJE777
I have had quite heated debates over 'white academia', especially regarding translating oral information into English grammar. 'White academia' [it is a politically correct phrase/term] simply does not comprehend the depths of the oral tradition & it does its best, but cannot accomodate Indigenous languages.

Allow me to disagree, both as an anthropologist with some field experience AND as a professional storyteller (yes, really.)

And excellent "redistribution of the lightning" Byrd. I couldn't agree with you more. I always suspect someone that makes claims about "academia" not doing their jobs, though usually it's along the lines of "those damn archaeologists hiding the truth about ancient civilizations" from us poor unfortunates that only seek wisdom. At least here there was no conspiracy theory advanced, just absence of knowledge on the subject; a condition you are rapidly correcting.

And speaking of stories - a priest, a rabbi and a minister walk into a bar....

Originally posted by Byrd

Now, most people wouldnt understand the artwork, but I feel it is wrong for academics to disregard it.

We don't. In fact, the anthropologists were the ones working to save it from extinction and to save the people and the culture... and I assure you that we're academics down to the bottom of our field note-writing fingertips.

I'd point you to Franz Boas' work on the Tlingit and Haida of the American Northwest (and some traditions and art were preserved only becase of he and his fellow anthropologists) ... and googling on www.scholar.google.com... will show you that there's well over 1500 publications (including books on the rock art and one on the archaeology of the dreamtime) on the aborigines and the Dreamtime:
scholar.google.com...

There's also some huge collections and archives of oral recordings, traditions, photos, costumes, field notes on customs, etc, etc from around the world.

Here's just one of thousands of such collections:
www.nmnh.si.edu...

I must remember to stop reading your posts, Byrd. My "Favorites" folder is getting too full - I can't find anything in it anymore. Need to take a few days off and figure out a better way to organize it!

Harte

Originally posted by Harte

And excellent "redistribution of the lightning" Byrd. I couldn't agree with you more. I always suspect someone that makes claims about "academia" not doing their jobs, though usually it's along the lines of "those damn archaeologists hiding the truth about ancient civilizations" from us poor unfortunates that only seek wisdom. At least here there was no conspiracy theory advanced, just absence of knowledge on the subject; a condition you are rapidly correcting.

And if you believe that "academia" has all the answers, well all i can say is Good Luck! Of course there are wonderful people (archaelogists, anthropologists etc) out there but dont try and tell me that there arent those whose motives are less than altruistic. And i wouldnt call it an absence of knowledge on Nats behalf but rather a search for knowledge, it only takes one word to go from pompous to nice. Neat trick huh.

Luv all around
M4S