Starseed theory

Originally posted by Harte
Of course, it would depend on your definition of civilization.

and

Also, to the other poster, I don't care what you say about Fell, he's a con man. And last time I checked, nobody had translated the glyphs (Rongorongo script) at Easter Island.

Harte

Originally posted by Harte
Plato pretty clearly places the end of Atlantis at around 9500 BC, this predates basically every single civilization known to us. Of course, it would depend on your definition of civilization.

Nomadic tribes chasing their cattle across the steppes, maybe. Cities, manufacturing, trade of goods and services? Almost certainly not.

The Minoans came literally millenia later.

If you want to place Atlantis at 950 BC, in defiance of Plato, and without any reason, then that's your Atlantis, not Plato's. But even if you do, just because it was pre-Hellenic, that by no means indicates that it was pre-anybody else. A large, rich and powerful civilization cannot have existed at that time without leaving a trace. And I don't necessarily mean just ruins. I mean records among the other civilizations that were around at that time, in the same part of the world.

There is no mention of Atlantis anywhere in the ancient world until Plato brings it up in two of his dialogues.

Also, to the other poster, I don't care what you say about Fell, he's a con man. And last time I checked, nobody had translated the glyphs (Rongorongo script) at Easter Island.
en.wikipedia.org...
www.omniglot.com...
www.netaxs.com...
www.pacificislandtravel.com... ongo.asp
A couple of those links may claim that the script has been (at least partially) deciphered, but these "translations" haven't been generally accepted as accurate.
You'd be extremely hard pressed to even find the name "Fell" at any website regarding this text (unless, of course, the website is actually about Fell.) Your claim about this shyster is sounding very similar to Sitchen's claim that he is the only one in the world that can "properly" translate Sumerian cuneiform script.
About Fell:
The following links are in reference to the very subject at hand, the Ogham script, and Fell's claims to have found it in America:
cwva.org...
cwva.org...
cwva.org...
These links concern Fell's "work" in other areas:
ydli.org...
www.ramtops.co.uk...

All of the above came from Doug's Archaeology Site. I told you to save it! Harte

Originally posted by Shane
I know we both agree Ogham is from 700 to 500 BC and has no point being presented as a link to Atlantis.

Several technical difficulties apply to luminescence methods. An inherent problem concerns the annual environmental dose rate, which can be measured in the field or laboratory and which introduces the largest uncertainties into the method. For instance, substantial variability has been observed in K, Th and U, the principal sources of the environmental dose rate (Dunnell and Feathers 1994). Indeed, variations in sedimentary K may be directly related to former human occupation. For a field measurement the dosimeter would have to be placed virtually in the same location as the sample for a year, which is physically not feasible. Another difficulty concerns the moisture content, an important factor that cannot effectively be determined for the duration of the time in question.

Then there are specific problems relating to dating that relies on measurements taken from saprolithic or regolithic sediments, i.e. sediments that comprise grains from rock that decomposed in situ within the sediment. Ref

Significant errors through the misinterpretation attributable to this effect have already occurred in rock art dating, notably at the Australian site Jinmium. Here, archaeologists using TL analysis claimed an age of 58 000 to 75 000 years for petroglyphs that were clearly and obviously of the Holocene (Fullagar et al. 1996), and were subsequently shown to be so (Roberts et al. 1998). Such cases can readily be clarified by using OSL analysis instead, measuring each quartz grain separately and then discarding those results that are distinctly greater than the main cluster of data.

However, OSL dating, too, is not without significant qualifications. In TL dating it is traditionally customary to remove the outermost 2 mm of samples in the darkroom, to eliminate the need to account for dose rate alpha and beta radiation. This only penetrates to a depth in the order of microns, whereas gamma rays penetrate very much deeper. In the case of single-grain OSL analysis, this is obviously not possible, the grains are as a rule well under one millimetre in size. Recommended reading!

Archaeological records show that the Minoan culture spread its dominion throughout the nearby islands of the Aegean, very roughly from 3000 years BC to about 1400 years BC. Crete, now part of Greece, was the capital for the Minoan people ‹ an advanced civilization with language, commercial shipping, complex architecture, ritual and games. Ref

Many ancient Greek myths take their location from Minoan Crete more than ten centuries before Plato. Daedalus, the ancient scientist, was supposedly the architect of the palace at Knossos Ref

Minoan culture extended across the island of Crete, with most of its developments along the northern coast of Crete. But, after more than a thousand years of dominance, the Minoan culture came to an abrupt end, circa 1470 BC. Ref

Aristotle wrote of a large island in the Atlantic Ocean that the Carthaginians knew as Antilia. Proclus, the commentator of "Timaeus" mentions that Marcellus, relying on ancient historians, stated in his Aethiopiaka that in the Outer Ocean (which meant all oceans, not just the Atlantic) there were seven small islands dedicated to Persephone, and three large ones; one of these, comprising 1,000 stadia in length, was dedicated to Poseidon. Proclus tells us that Crantor reported that he, too, had seen the columns on which the story of Atlantis was preserved as reported by Plato: the Saite priest showed him its history in hieroglyphic characters. Some other writers called it Poseidonis after Poseidon. Plutarch mentions Saturnia or Ogygia about five days' sail to the west of Britain. He added that westwards from that island, there were the three islands of Cronus, to where proud and warlike men used to come from the continent beyond the islands, in order to offer sacrifice to the gods of the ocean. Ref

Originally posted by NJE777
Before I continue I would like to illustrate the limitations with archaeology relative to the various dating techniques…

...There are limitations with ALL dating techniques and it is for this reason alone that I am skeptical about ‘dates’…

...I hope this explains where my head is at? Quite simply, I am not convinced that the Druids or Ogham were NOT present during the Hellenic period or for that matter, the Pre Hellenic period.

Originally posted by NJE777
Minoan culture is at the 'harte' of the Plato theory...please sing out if I am misinformed or have left something out! (Disclaimer: Sorry, but couldn't resist the play on words, hope you don't find it offensive, because it wasn't meant in that way)

reliable within the error margin they give, especially when three or more different methods arrive at similar results

The dating of remains is essential in archaeology, in order to place finds in correct relation to one another, and to understand what was present in the experience of any human being at a given time and place. Inscribed objects sometimes bear an explicit date, or preserve the name of a dated individual. In such cases, dating might seem easy. However, only a small number of objects are datable by inscriptions, and there are many specific problems with Egyptian chronology, so that even inscribed objects are rarely datable in absolute terms. In the archaeology of part-literate societies, dating may be said to operate on two levels: the absolute exactness found in political history or 'history event-by-event', and the less precise or relative chronology, as found in social and economic history, where life can be seen to change with less precision over time.Dating in Egyptian Archaeology

The chronology in absolute numbers (year dates). For Egypt absolute year dates can only be established back to the beginning of the Late Period, from links to Greek chronology, and then from Assyrian king-lists and other Near Eastern sources, back to the Ramesside Period (still debated). For earlier periods there are several problems. The Egyptians dated by the year of reign of the king on the throne (for example 'year 3 of king X'). If we knew the precise length of reign for every Egyptian king, chronology would be no problem. However, we do not even know the number of kings for all periods, and there is also the possibility that reigns overlapped by coregency or in times of political disunity. For their own religious and administrative purposes, the Egyptians compiled lists of kings, sometimes with the exact length of reign. Fragments of such lists survived ('Palermo stone'); none of them is well enough preserved to solve every detail of absolute chronology..Dating in Egyptian Archaeology

For Egypt and the Eastern Mediterranean, this method from European prehistory is currently under development.Dating in Egyptian Archaeology

These results will contribute to a long lasting debate about validity of different relative chronologies in Egyptian ancient history, which in the second millennium differ for approximately 140 years. Vienna Institute for Archaeological Science, Dendrolab. c/o Inst. for Palaeontology, Vienna

Originally posted by Harte
I've seen that statement made about Aristotle before. I've never seen a reference for it, but I can give you what I have found on it:

Source: HISTORY AND COLLECTION OF VOYAGES AND TRAVELS, ARRANGED IN SYSTEMATIC ORDER: FORMING A COMPLETE HISTORY OF THE ORIGIN AND PROGRESS OF NAVIGATION, DISCOVERY, AND COMMERCE, BY SEA AND LAND, FROM THE EARLIEST AGES TO THE PRESENT TIME.
BY ROBERT KERR, F.R.S. & F.A.S. EDIN.
VOL. III.
MDCCCXXIV.

It is in all likelihood that we find the origins of Ogham linked with the Greek alphabet. The fact that Caesar mentions Ogham, is significant. After all, how could Caesar have known about it if it had not been invented yet? Ogham by R Gombach

Who were these Celts that used Ogham? As mentioned previously the Celts were an oral culture who had strict religious beliefs and doctrine expressly forbidding them to commit certain things to writing. Ogham by R Gombach

The Romans claimed that the Celts were elitists and would not commit anything to writing for fear that the information would become commonplace and available to all. Julius Caesar, in his description of the Celts in his Gallic War, writes that the Celts "consider it improper to commit their studies to writing," and he adds that they knew Greek letters and used these for "all other purposes. In Search of Ancient Ireland by Carmel McCaffrey and Leo Eaton. This book traces the history, archaeology, and legends of ancient Ireland from 9000 BC to 1167 AD when a Normans invaded Ireland

There are no written records in Ireland before the arrival of Christianity in the fifth century In Search of Ancient Ireland by Carmel McCaffrey and Leo Eaton. This book traces the history, archaeology, and legends of ancient Ireland from 9000 BC to 1167 AD when a Normans invaded Ireland

Julius Caesar described as Celtae. The word "Celtic" came originally from the Greeks who, around 600 B.C.,called the people who lived to the north of Greece Keltoi. We know also from references in both Greek and Roman texts that they inhabited a large area in Central Europe. Archaeologists do not believe that the Celts were one homogeneous people but were composed of many tribes speaking a similar language. How these different tribes came to speak a common language is not known, but these various peoples, referred to as Celtic, spoke a language which was a predecessor of modern-day Irish. Thus the word "Celtic" became a way of describing the people who spoke the Gaelic language. In Search of Ancient Ireland by Carmel McCaffrey and Leo Eaton. This book traces the history, archaeology, and legends of ancient Ireland from 9000 BC to 1167 AD when a Normans invaded Ireland

In spite of the lack of archaeological evidence we do know that the Celtic language and culture came to Ireland. There is ample evidence to show that by around A.D. 100 Ireland was a Celtic speaking country. One major source in support of this is Ptolemy's map of Ireland dating to about A.D. 150, which shows the country to be Celtic speaking. Ptolemy was a Greek geographer, and Professor Donnchadh Ó Corráin, medieval historian at University College Cork, believes that this is the strongest evidence for the arrival of the Celtic or Gaelic language into Ireland. This is the first absolute proof that the language arrived, and linguistic scholars feel that it must have been well established by this time. The pre-Celtic language, whatever it was, was gone by this time, leaving only traces behind. These old texts also describe a Celtic society similar to that found on the Continent with comparable gods and goddesses. In Search of Ancient Ireland by Carmel McCaffrey and Leo Eaton. This book traces the history, archaeology, and legends of ancient Ireland from 9000 BC to 1167 AD when a Normans invaded Ireland

Zeus the Father made a third generation of mortal men, a brazen race, sprung from ash-trees Bronze Age

If one were to pick a region where the plants of the ogham were best represented, it would be the valley of the Rhine River Exploring the Origins of the Celtic Ogham

The human history of the Rhine begins with the writers of the late Roman Republic and early Roman Empire. Nearly all the classical sources mention the Rhine, and the name is always the same: Rhenus in Latin, Greek Rhenos. The Romans viewed the Rhine as the outermost border of civilization and reason, beyond which were mythical creatures and the wild Germans, not far themselves from being beasts of the wilderness they inhabited. As it was a wilderness, the Romans were eager to explore it. This view is typified by Res Gestae Divi Augusti, a long public inscription of Augustus in which he (or his ghost writer) boasts of his exploits, including sending an expeditionary fleet north of the Rhinemouth to Jutland, which no Roman had ever done (he says).
Throughout the long history of Rome, the Rhine was considered the border between Gaul or the Celts and the Germans, even though the border often was violated, as when the Germanics crossed it and joined with the Celts to form the Belgae (descending to Belgium). Typical of this point of view is a quote from Maurus Servius Honoratus, Commentary on the Aeneid of Vergil (On Book 8 Line 727):
"(Rhenus) fluvius Galliae, qui Germanos a Gallia dividit"
"(The Rhine is a) river of Gaul, which divides the Germans from Gaul." Rhine

westwards from that island, there were the three islands of Cronus, to where proud and warlike men used to come from the continent beyond the islands, in order to offer sacrifice to the gods of the ocean. Aristotle

The Celts worshipped water gods and believed water to be sacred. Like trees and water the Druids held some islands to be sacred too. Druidism

Originally posted by NJE777
I now refer to Aristotle and the Island of Antilia: Aristotle mentions proud and warlike men used to come from the continent beyond the islands…

Plutarch mentions Saturnia or Ogygia about five days' sail to the west of Britain. He added that westwards from that island, there were the three islands of Cronus, to where proud and warlike men used to come from the continent beyond the islands, in order to offer sacrifice to the gods of the ocean.

Originally posted by NJE777
Druid mythology also makes reference to water gods…

I know this is based on similarities...and nothing conclusive...but is anything absolute with respect to mythology?

Originally posted by NJE777



You know something seems strange about the above notations. What does this truly imply? I've taken the liberty to draw out the what has attracted my attention. See the BOLDS

Keltoi, means Hidden, in the Greek, so Ceasar was refering to these people in this region as the Hidden Celts. Why is this used? Is this to describe the area they lived in, or the name of the region, these people lived in.

For example, in Spain and Portugal, the Region is the Iberian Pennisula, named after the inhabitants, and not the region itself. I trust you get what I am suggesting here.

Also, the second indication expresses a wonder, that I think many maybe overlooking as simply a bunch of words alone. What people refered to as tribes, ever had the same language? That is the way of Tribes. They are unique within themselves. It is rediculous to say this, unless of course, they are implying something in a way that it is to be overlooked.

So, first we have these people Ceasar refers to as the Hidden Celts, and there is something they are hiding from. Interesting alone, but through in the "Enlightened", and their comments, and these Celts where made of various tribes, not closely affiliated, yet had the same language. And then the enlightened have this ability to through, "But no one knows why", and pass the point to get into another.

Personally, I like to know, how many tribes have had a common language, yet and where not directly tied to eachother?

To Start, I would seek tribes that are missing from today, but had a generally accepted historical past, and all spoke one language???

I think of the Historical documents many of the Faiths have. They generally confirm what ever Science is able to find, Many Biblical accounts have been proven. Likewise the Torah and Koran also have similiar references to peoples and where they lived.

Even other Ancient texts outside of the ones with religious themes, have expressed similiar references, that ultimately, are proven to be quite factual in an historical sense.

So what of lost or missing tribes from the Bible. If it is quite accurate in locating things from our past, what would make it less likely to be as accurate when discussing peoples. Assyrians where Assyrians, Persians where Persians, and so on. They lived in the land being descibed that the Bible has led Archaeologist to find.

The Koran speaks of a bunch of tribes in the middle east and they spoke one language. I wonder what happened to them? I think they where refered to as Israel

I am also certian the Torah mentioned these same people in their account of events. They ultimately become refered to as Ephriam when Israel was devided and the Southern Kingdoms made up of two tribes, and maintain their customs until they happened to get captured and taken to Babylon.

So what of this Ephriam? This Northern Kingdom, of what was once refered to as Israel?

In the Bible, there are also references to Israel deviding and the Kingdom being maintained thru our brother Judeah and the Levis. (This may cause contention amongst some, since many claim Benjamin also made up part of Judeah, but I do believe many if not more of Ben stayed part of the North. The Levi's made up the Rabbinical preisthood that maintained the temple, They would not dessert their duties to God.

But, what happened to these ten tribes of from the house of Jacob? Oh my goodness. Their Missing!

Ancient texts suggest they assimilated with the Assryians, They ventured over the Caucus Mountain and seemingly dissappear, or become hidden.

So could it be, this Celtic Laungage and the ties you are attempting to describe are a part of the Lost Tribe of Israel?? Ten Kingdoms that dissappeared. Seperate Tribes who did live appart, but spoke the same language, and spread throughout Europa to become the people they claimed to have been.

Evidence supports Holland is made up of the Tribe of Zebulan, which happens to mean, "a dwelling lifting water"' in the Chaldean much like what a windmill is. The Dane's ancient documents claim they are decentants of Dan. The Scotts and the Stone of Scone make a serious claim to being from Jacob, since they have his pillow, Jacob's Pillow. It's also refered to as the Corniation Stone.

We can be certain of one thing. The Northern Kingdom dissappeared prior to the Captivity in Babylon, so ten tribes that lived appart from each other, and all shared a common language, where Lost or in Hiding, sometime prior to 700 BC.

Thought I'd Throw this in for you consideration.

I like the Post and your efforts are excellent. I may not think it is all accurate, but it is the Gestalt that is important here. Many things considered, which truely are parts of one story.

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by Harte
Dude,

Your point about dating is correct, as far as it goes. But the discrepancies you keep talking about are not nearly enough to bring Atlantis into the Minoan time span, or even close to it.

Numerous synchronisms have been drawn between Egypt and Mesopotamia, but many of these are based on unproved assumptions. Of those that are genuine, closer examination reveals that in many cases Mesopotamian chronology is actually dependent on Egyptian - and not the other way around. Egypt & Mesopotamia Chronology

Anyway, try to find where Plutarch, Aristotle and the boys at your crystalinks quote actually said what is claimed on that page. If you can find it, it's better than even odds that reading the statement in context would reveal that these guys were no more referring to any "Atlantean-type" culture than they were to my ex mother-in-law!

The demand for certainty (to which many of these fringe ideas pander with some success) is what Bertrand Russell has referred to as a natural urge, but an "intellectual vice". Russell expands on the ways of science: what is at issue, he insists, is not so much "what opinions are held" but rather "how they are held". Ideas should be taken up only tentatively, "with a consciousness that new evidence may at any moment lead to their abandonment" (Russell, B. 1950. "Unpopular essays". Republished by Unwin Paperbacks, 1976).[url=http://www.driekopseiland.itgo.com/catalog.html][/ur]

Originally posted by Shane
Keltoi, means Hidden, in the Greek, so Ceasar was refering to these people in this region as the Hidden Celts. Why is this used? Is this to describe the area they lived in, or the name of the region, these people lived in.

For example, in Spain and Portugal, the Region is the Iberian Pennisula, named after the inhabitants, and not the region itself. I trust you get what I am suggesting here.

So, first we have these people Ceasar refers to as the Hidden Celts, and there is something they are hiding from. Interesting alone, but through in the "Enlightened", and their comments, and these Celts where made of various tribes, not closely affiliated, yet had the same language. And then the enlightened have this ability to through, "But no one knows why", and pass the point to get into another.

I think of the Historical documents many of the Faiths have. They generally confirm what ever Science is able to find, Many Biblical accounts have been proven. Likewise the Torah and Koran also have similiar references to peoples and where they lived.

Even other Ancient texts outside of the ones with religious themes, have expressed similiar references, that ultimately, are proven to be quite factual in an historical sense.

So what of lost or missing tribes from the Bible. If it is quite accurate in locating things from our past, what would make it less likely to be as accurate when discussing peoples. Assyrians where Assyrians, Persians where Persians, and so on. They lived in the land being descibed that the Bible has led Archaeologist to find.

Originally posted by Shane
We can be certain of one thing. The Northern Kingdom dissappeared prior to the Captivity in Babylon, so ten tribes that lived appart from each other, and all shared a common language, where Lost or in Hiding, sometime prior to 700 BC.

Originally posted by NJE777


Harte... I am NOT a 'dude'...well not since last time I checked!!
I have a name and it is Natalie or NJE....anything but 'dude' please!!!!

Originally posted by NJE777

I beg to differ, preliminary results from dendrochronology in Thera already bring the dates forward...how does this sit amongst the 'estimated dates' of that region? It may not be enough to bring ogham completely within Minoan epoch BUT I feel it is plausible the Celts were in close enough proximity to have knowledge of the Minoan civilisation, thus Atlantis. Perhaps??? it was incorporated into their language or mythology... the timeframe isn't (I feel) as distant as you protest...we are in the 21 century now and yet we have the knowledge of what happened last century, anors.

Originally posted by NJE777

Oh I intend to do better than that... I am in the process of sourcing the original extract...soon as I find it, not if or when, I will post
cheers
Nat

...the history of this earth is infinitely older than the modern historian admits. There exist many and various sects, orders, and religious and philosophical fraternities, who all possess exhaustive records and treatises describing the evolution of man upon this planet, and of the part that our Solar System plays in the Cosmic scheme.

If the pure and original root of these different beliefs can be uncovered, it will be found to be identical in most respects. In each case we will discover that the One God over all was acknowledged, and that the existence of the Hierarchy was well understood, and was tabulated and represented under the names of various gods and goddesses, and nature spirits and demons. The seven Great Spirits, their colours, attributes and elements, the seven planes and man's sevenfold bodies were all carefully studied and analysed. The great Cosmic Cycles and Periods, as ruled by the Signs of the Zodiac and all the astorlogical influences, both psychic and chemical, were subject to intensive research. The laws of Rebirth and Karma were embodied in all these beliefs.

We find that at the zenith of their civilisation the various great ancient nations had perfected this knowledge and by its means produced immortal monuments to their science, such as the Great Pyramid. It transpires that such a golden period in the history of a nation was followed by crystallisation, stagnancy, degeneration and final breaing up, leaving only distorted misunderstood relics of the once - great knowledge. We learn that such great cycles were said to occur regularly under astrological influences which provide for the continual recommencing of man's lesson on a higher turn of the Spiral of Evolution, so that his development becomes even more subtler and more complete. Before each new surge forward of enlightenment man must be borne down within the crouching wave and submerged in darkness and ignorance.

In all these records reference is made to the wonderful Golden Age which occurred on the continent of Atlantis, which was said to have submerged during its proceeding period of degeneration. Mankind was said to have been taught the Ageless Wisdom by the gods themselves upon Atlantis, and to have carried its renmants with them in all directions as they fled to safer land.

The Atlanteans were said to have founded the Egyptian culture and to have built the Sphinx, and their descendants the Pyramid. It is believed that the early Egyptians religion thus founded was the father of all the faiths which spread across Europe & Asia, as far north as the Esquimaux and the Laplanders, and so far east as China and Japan. In South America and also perhaps the greatest of Atlantean colonisations took place, but at a still earlier date.

...at p 159 There have been at least 300 books written about Atlantis. The remains of its root language are said to be found in identical form among the Welsh, Irish, Basques, Western Spanish, and on the Canary Islands, Azores, Easter Island and in Mexico; as well as certain practices and beliefs. The Druids of England were believed to be the descendants of Atlanteans who built Stone Henge and other little understood monuments in the British Isles at p 160

... at p 164 The Greek philosophies, founded b Pythagoras, Plato and others, upon the Egyptian teachings, accepted rebirth and other of the ancient doctrines. The Jews have their own great book of ancient records called the Kaballah, and the inner meanings of these writings were sought and studied by Alchemists of the Middle Ages.

The Christian Church, as founded in Rome, guarded many priceless manuscripts. It accepted Reincarnation and Karma, as it said that Christ had also done. [St. Matthew xvi, 13 and St. Matthew xvii, 12-13 my addition of footnote ref] BUT from the first General Council of Christendom at Nicaea in AD 325, to the last Council in Constantinople in AD 869, Christian principles, rules and teachings were subject to many deletions and changes. The result was to decrease public knowledge for the aggrandizement of the priesthood. From that time onwards all who possessed or were teaching the Secret Wisdom were mercilessly persecuted and put to death.

Henceforth the occult sciences were studied in secret. They were guarded and kept alive by such people as the Freemasons, Reosicrucians, Alchemists, Troubadours, Knights of the Grail and the Round Table and the Avengensies or paper-makers...continued. (but you will have to buy the book or take a trip to the Library )