Why doesn't ATS allow "Activist" Recruiting?

reply to post by Springer


So, does that mean it's okay to write things like; We should " First Impeach and then Lynch That Traitor SOB G.W. Bush" and all those with him? Can we post stuff like that? Can we post a list of individuals we consider Traitors and Criminals?

reply to post by MajKarma


I think there's a sharp difference between demands and opinion.

If you said something like "I think we should impeach president Bush and remove his administration from power" that would be a very valid argument, you are entitled to your opinions. But when you say something like what you've said, it becomes antagonistic in nature and sounds more like a demand and a course of action.

You can always convey your message by changing the wording around.

In my opinion, as a Discussion Board in a whole, ATS is required to remain the fence line between views and stances.

How could an institution such as ATS in nature be on the greener side of the fence when in reality it would be required to oppose the darker side?

Of course these stances have their advantages and disadvantages, but ATS caters to a very broad spectrum of people and views. Covering from the far Left to the Far right ATS is the most genuine example of a global melting pot of cultures and has an extremely sophisticated political nomenclature. I don't think anyone can downplay the significance of this.

... I mean I don't know about the rest of you, but at the end of MY day when I come home, take my boots off, and sit down; the very first thing I do is go to my Bookmarks drop down tab and click on www.AboveTopSecret.com. For me, ATS is the stargate from which I cross my realm of reality to the World's realm of reality.

And that's what I think ATS is, a portal, not a podium.

Shattered OUT...

[edit on 25-3-2008 by ShatteredSkies]

reply to post by MajKarma


I think it is pretty clear that you can post what you want, within the T&Cs. Writing a list of war criminals is fine (personally I'd want to see some analysis and justification, but that's just me). Saying that you think the President should be impeached is fine. I'm not sure about US law (being Australian and all), but calling for a lynching of the President, while distasteful, is probably fine. But if you then start getting a team together from ATS members to conduct said lynching, then that isn't fine.

You can tell everyone that it would be fantastic to join the Australian Defence Force and do your bit for the War on Terror. Once you start signing people up though, you've crossed the line from commentator to recruiter.

To me, the intent is clear. We discuss, we analyse, we recognise there will be alternate points of view, and we conduct ourselves in an adult, dignified and polite manner. If someone feels strongly enough about a subject that they want to recruit for it, they should use alternate bandwidth! ATS needs to remain impartial to succeed.

Originally posted by SkepticOverlord

Originally posted by 7Ayreon
I can't launch a peaceful protest on the Area-51 borderline?

Certainly you can... and no such thing is against the terms of your membership here.

However, you can't use ATS to organize such a thing without advance approval of the owners.

Now, I have a question...

If I were to come to you guys with a Deny Ignorance Campaign from the NGO that I work for as it comes to the world refugee problem and asked if I could post with a link would that be considered? Meaning do you guys get those sorts of requests and investigate them?

I want ATS to stay neutral. I like this place and I like the people here.

However, I agree with the poster that says sometimes we have talked enough and it is time to act. For example, we have women and children living in violent, deplorable conditions, living with the fear of rape and torture. Sometimes it is not enough to talk about it. We have to encourage people to act. If someone brought an idea to you first would you consider someone saying linking to a Campaign about Darfur or Afghan refugees?

I will abide by T&C because I am a guest, but I am curious about your statement above.

To be clear and without prejudice:
My proposal, having now been removed, suffice to say, did violate specific T&C's particularly in the area of recruitment.
I am humbled by my post becoming 404.
I am grateful not to get another warning.
But I thought I should enter my two cents on this conversation to hopefully illustrate, to ATS members, the real boundaries to these T&C's
So: Here are the T&C as it relates to my post entitled "ATS Agency: The most dangerous post."

1e.) Recruitment/Solicitation:

i) You will not use your membership at The Above Network, LLC site(s) for any type of recruitment to any causes whatsoever. You will not post, use the chat feature, use videos, or use the private message system to disseminate advertisements, chain letters, petitions, pyramid schemes, or any kind of solicitation for political action, social action, letter campaigns, or related online and/or offline coordinated actions of any kind.

ii) You will not use the discussion boards, the chat system or the private message system to collect or ask for the personal information (data mining) about forum members, including email addresses and "real life" names, in any manner whatsoever, or for any reason whatsoever.

iii) You will not post, use the chat feature or use the private message system to solicit members of The Above Network, LLC on behalf of another message board, online community or competitor. You will not attempt to use your membership to encourage or lure other members in any way to other websites or discussion boards in competition with The Above Network, LLC. Doing so will result in removal of your post(s) and immediate termination of your account.

Now, I specifically, was doing no. ii in my aforementioned thread.
I was also, specifically doing neither i nor iii.
I freely admit to that and I would like to again, thank TPTB for not punishing me to the maximum allowed, for I too enjoy my time at ATS.

Now to the legalese:
In the strictest of sense and as per your definition of i:
I was not in the slightest acting in any way that may have been determined to be in breach of any of no i's constituents with the possible exception of: "or related online and/or offline coordinated actions of any kind." as there was a degree of coordination in inent of my aforementioned post.

I submit that this level of coordination was restricted to a format that fell well within the allowances of no i. That format being: the willing ATS member has his/her name and location recorded. If there are ever investigations that need doing in that area, that ATS member is notified. That is all.

I don't print this to argue any kind of case against anyone or any particular set of rules. I accept my post is 404 for because I am guilty of a T&C infringement.

I'm posting this so that ATSers understand what not to do:

I was trying to collect a list of (ATS) names and locations so if there was "something happening" in their neck o' the woods, they could check it out."

It is an idea, I'm sure has been done before, that came to me while helping organise investigations during the Ottawa River UFO incident, and the G20 Pittsburgh.

I'd like to further propose that ATS members duly take into consideration the subject matter of the organising they do here. For instance: there seems to be no problem with the number of G20 posts that informed Ats members that were heading into Pittsburgh (to do what, exactly?) There was conversation of strategy, safe houses, geography, timelines, links to groups that DO take sides and DO have agendas, one of these threads was my creation, "G20 Pittsburgh: ATS Ready?" Again my intent: the coordinated gathering of information about a specific event.

Further to this point, my work organising investigations during the Ottawa River UFO incident used ATS, youtube, facebook and my telephone. It also used at least four other ATS members on the ground. This incident and my involvement in it lead to free publicity for abovetopsecret.com in the form of being mentioned on the news.

I'm sure it could easily be accepted that such a thread was in the purpose of collecting news to disseminate to ATS and organising ATS members for the sake of ATS is not contraindicating ATS T&C, if we define "cause" as stated in rule i. of the Recruitment paragraphs as "a cause that does not counter any of i, ii, or iii.)

Otherwise, no one is going to be able to every "do" anything, for we are surrounded by causes.

ATS has potential and I can appreciate the cautious nature of the ATS panel, we are riding a dangerous wave. But if we are reduced to the very things the panel complains about, what's the point?

(edited to add hypnotic suggestions)


[edit on 19-10-2009 by briantaylor]

Originally posted by briantaylor
ATS has potential and I can appreciate the cautious nature of the ATS panel, we are riding a dangerous wave. But if we are reduced to the very things the panel complains about, what's the point?

It's important to be fully aware of our stance in this regard -- that of an extreme cautiousness regarding the privacy of our members.


There was at least three confirmed incidents in the past that have led to our very-stern restriction on the recruitment of ATS members.

One incident involved a DIA (US Defense Intelligence Agency) scam that initially seemed innocuous, but resulted in the harvesting of emails and phone numbers of ATS members. (The "Juniper Six" event, discussed at length in our RATS forum)

One event also seemed to involve an earnest conspiracy investigation that was, in reality, an effort to infect many ATS members with keystroke logging trojans.

The other event was a "conspiracy discussion board" that attracted several members, used their emails to change their ATS passwords, and caused several days of mayhem posting horrible content posing as those members.

These were long in our past, but serve as a reminder that the provocative nature of our topics attract a broad mix of interested parties -- ranging form serious investigators of conspiracies, to serious investigators of conspiracy theorists, and include those who would harm you and your computers.



I'm not saying you were doing this... but consider how easy it would be to pose as a patriot with a cause, gather dozens of ATS members, and ultimately gain a wealth of personal data.

This is the primary reason we're careful about who can link to personal sites, especially social networking sites or discussion boards.



With that in mind, we have allowed a few organized events in the past. In those cases, the people contacted us first, we vetted their integrity, and watched closely.

The privacy of our members is our utmost concern.





[edit on 19-10-2009 by SkepticOverlord]

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


Wow.
It's good to know that during my visits here that my back is covered by
the extra effort you guys go to , to keep the scams off ATS.

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


That is very good to know! I realize that some people are not into privacy, but I am. No facebook, no myspace, no twitter. I hate that we have to give up our privacy to "chat".

Thanks for keeping us solid.

Just a reminder...

That ATS's policy on activist recruiting is longstanding and unchanged.

And the TERMS AND CONDITIONS OF USE that everyone agreed to when they registered are pretty clear:

15e.) Recruitment/Solicitation:

i) You will not use your membership in the Websites for any type of recruitment to any causes whatsoever. You will not Post, use the chat feature, use videos, or use the private message system to disseminate advertisements, chain letters, petitions, pyramid schemes, or any kind of solicitation for political action, social action, letter campaigns, or related online and/or offline coordinated actions of any kind.

ii) You will not Post, use the chat feature, use videos, or use the private message system to collect or ask for the personal information (data mining) about forum members, including email addresses and "real life" names, in any manner whatsoever, or for any reason whatsoever.

iii) You will not Post, use the chat feature, use videos, or use the private message system to solicit members of the Websites on behalf of another message board, online community or competitor. You will not attempt to use your membership to encourage or lure other members in any way to other websites or discussion boards in competition with TAN. Doing so will result in removal of your Post(s) and immediate termination of your account.

Rule 15 e
I understand it and its purpose. But I can help but to wonder if its fear that is the hidden primary reason for the rule. Or that one or more of the admins are not American. Ether way I guess they have a point. There are other places for that even though some of the best recruiting could be done right here with the great knowledge found in the dedicated people on this site. But I guess I realty wont matter cause things ill be felt with one way or another. By the way love the site, spend way to Much time on it

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