Could this ever come to be? Maybe the ultimate religious conspiracy.

The following idea is not my own (it belongs to someone I know), but since I have not seen it mentioned anywhere, I thought I would post it.

Do you think there is a possibility that sometime in the future science will create/engineer a new Messiah, and present him as the true Savior?
Of course I'm assuming that religion still legally exists by then, and still holds power over the majority of the world.
How do you think Church leaders (the Vatican in particular) would take such a coming? What if the Vatican will be behind the creation of this Messiah, in order to gain a better hold on it's subjects??
If any of you believe in the second coming (I hope I have that right. I'm afraid I'm not exactly fluent with all the terms and beliefs), how will you be able to tell whether or not this person is genuine?
P.S. Does he have to be born of a virgin mother? If so, science can make that happen, even now! Just some food for thought.

[edit on 6-4-2006 by 2manyquestions]

[edit on 6-4-2006 by 2manyquestions]

I've seen this idea before a few times; the one I remember most clearly was in a Star Trek: TNG novel, of all things () called "Kahless". I won't go into the details of the story, in case anyone wants to read it without it being spoiled, except to say that it is quite relevant to your thoughts above.

Definitely one day we will have the ability to clone people, I think, or otherwise grow people. What this will mean for religion, I don't know, but as for my own personal beliefs, I believe that the true Messiah will not come because of anything man can do or will do, but rather that it will be God's hand. I could see maybe someday a 'messiah' being created to do just what you say, i.e. try to convince the world that he/she is the savior of humankind. Maybe that's how the antichrist comes about... after all, isn't the antichrist supposed to pretend he's the real thing?

And yes, definitely, if scientists wanted to, they could today implant a fertilized egg into a virgin woman, and then, well, we have *a* virgin mother. We don't have *the* virgin mother, though. After all, all sorts of other things in religion that used to be miracles can be duplicated nowadays, most notably many of the healings performed. I mean, nobody who has access to decent doctors worries about leprosy anymore... unless you live in the 3rd world, you will probably never meet anyone who even had it. Then there's the theory floating around recently about how maybe Jesus walked on ice instead of water (although I think that ice existing under those conditions is quite unlikely) as another example.

How would we be able to tell if the person was genuine or fake? I think that a fake would be easily found out. The true Messiah would be somebody who didn't commit any sin. (ex: Jesus Christ, in the Christian faith) So if the so-called Messiah did anything evil at any point in time, then you would know that they were an impostor. Even something little, like cursing at somebody who cuts you off in traffic, is not something that the true Savior would do. If somebody could manage to impersonate the Savior to the degree that they could pass the 'no-sin' test, then, impostor or not, they really would be a boon to the world. Imagine having a political leader with real morals, for example...

[edit on 7-4-2006 by DragonsDemesne]

Meaning what?

A new guru-type figure with enormous charisma who will start a new religion? I don't think anyone has found a gene for charisma yet, but you never know.

Or do you mean a human being with real, superhuman powers? I'll believe you can engineer a human being who can swim underwater without breathing apparatus, so if that's superhuman enough for you, maybe. But if you're talking about the ability to walk on water, or turn the stuff into wine, there's never going to be a gene for that. But then you don't need a gene, you just need James Randi.

But if you mean, will human beings one day help bring God -- not some fake Messiah but the genuine Divinity -- into existence, I suspect the answer could well be yes. But we may have to hang around for a few billion years before we know for certain.

[edit on 7-4-2006 by Astyanax]

Your "new messiah" would run into the same problems the "old messiah" had. People would want to kill him. If I shoot him what would the created messiah have accomplished.

The created messiah would have to fullfill or explain away the Book of Revelation to believers. Your created messiah would have to have answers, his intellect would have to be unprecedented. He would have to appear as a "theif in the night".

He would have to explain his original stay on this planet and prove it scientifically. Where are your apostles buried Lord? Where is your step-father/mother buried Lord? Where is this and show me your name on that? Let us see you walk on water, turn water into wine...etc.

I think creating a messiah is impossible.

I've never read it, but I probably should check it out. Now that you mention it, I did hear a radio story about aliens having brought Jesus to earth, by artificially impregnating Mary. It was an interesting take on the story of Jesus. Unfortunately I don't remember the name of it.



That was my thought exactly; Scientists basically creating the anti-christ.



I'm not sure that Jesus Christ was entirely without sin throughout his life. Wasn't there a story of the young Jesus, which never made it into the bible, because it seemed too violent for the young savior? The story goes that the young Jesus had pushed a friend of his from the roof of a house (among other bad things). The boy died, and when the parents questioned Jesus, he replied that the boy was not dead. He raised him from the dead, and to sum it up, everything was alright. Basically this story of the not-so-perfect young Jesus was to show people that even if you have sinned in the past, you can decide to use your powers for positive things, and become a better person.



I know that's impossible if you live anywhere near L.A.



A political leader with real morals? When that day comes, I'll know the world is coming to an end.

He wouldn't be starting a new religion, he would revive/give new life to Christianity/Catholicism. It would be the "fake" second coming of Christ. I was thinking that maybe (as religion starts losing it's grasp on the world in the future) the Vatican might be tempted to create a fake Messiah with the help of science in order to make itself stronger.



Although that would somewhat help his cause, I don't think he would have to be able to walk on water, or turn water into wine. As far as my beliefs go, I don't really believe these events to be literal,..... but who knows? I could be wrong. Will it ever be possible? I think that someday it might. There are already many theories about the power of the human mind. If reality is composed of nothing more than consciousness, maybe someday someone will learn how to manipulate reality,... and that includes turning one object into another, or defying physics.



No, I didn't really mean it that way. I was thinking more about a conspiracy that would fool the world into believing that this person was another (if not "the") Christ. Basically, I wondered if someday science would create an Anti-Christ to serve their own agendas (whatever they may be). I guess I would have to ask myself "what good would a new Messiah be to science?" A few answers pop into my head, but I'll have to think about them a little longer.

I don't see that becoming a problem. Revelation has been interpreted by people who were less than Messiahs, and millions of people continue to believe those interpretations today. I don't think intellect would be a big issue to science. I'm sure within a few years they will be able to create very intelligent human beings, even if only behind closed doors. In fact, he may not have to be extremely intelligent, nor does he have to be aware of being used,....as long as the person "behind the wheel" (so to speak) is extremely intelligent.



A believable story can be conjured up. I'm not sure how he would go about proving it scientifically. I'm not sure I can prove to anyone what I did yesterday, even if I retraced my steps, (maybe through forensics)..... not to mention someone trying to prove their existence from 2000 years ago. I suppose he could name places, and define archeological finds,....as you mentioned, pointing out the burial places of the apostles and parents (though, he died first. Would he know the places?). What if the bodies/bones didn't exist anymore?
The thing is, religion never relied on hard evidence. It always relied on blind faith. Most believers wouldn't question him, even though science would be expected to do so.



I can't really argue with you about that, since both of us only have our opinions. I think it is possible,... but valid arguments as to why it is not possible might change my mind.

2many...

I don't understand I guess. You are saying create a messiah, yet the messiah is going to have to 1) prove he is the messiah 2) follow what was written in the bible and attributed to him 3) demonstrate godly powers.

I can create a clone of Hitler, Michael Jordan, JFK, Mother Teresa...that isn't the issue. The returning messiah is not (according to the Christian account) a man, he will not do "man-ish" things.

He's suppose to be the son of God, but he doesn't know where the apostles are buried? That seems small potatoes compared to his feats of walking on water and bringing back the dead.

I think your messiah exists already in some people in the church and in some not affiliated with the church. I consider many Buhddist monks to be messianic in nature, some believe in God, some take the teachings of Christ to heart also. I don't see the difference between those people and your created Christ if he doesn't demonstrate supernatural powers. I think Mother Theresa did many godly things, but she never showed godly powers, nor did she infuse the church with millions of converts. How is your created messiah different?

I don't think you can create a "messiah" because the messiah is not human like us. Jesus "got away" with being human and supposedly did many miracles. How can your created messiah fullfill the prophecies people expect and perform miracles? 7 BILLION people will be testing him and watching his every move, and the church's move after he claims to be the messiah.

Your front man messiah will be attacked. Jews will attack him, Christians will attack him, Muslims will attack, the world will attack him. Yes some will believe in him much like those who believed in David Koresh and many other cult leaders. I see no difference in your creation other than you think the Roman Catholic church will be supporting him and help fool everyone.

If you want a create a messiah, then you better create one with the backing of an alien race that has advanced powers. People will want magic, people will want to feel good, people will want answers, and people will want to see heaven and probably lost loved ones. Quite a trick to pull off and I don't see how you can do it.

A fake Messiah, isn't that the job of the anti-Christ?

I can't blame you for not understanding. You bring up some very good points, things I didn't really think all the way through. In fact, I am now getting confused about it all!

1.) I'm not sure he would need to prove he was the Messiah. It took the world tens to hundreds of years to realize that Jesus was special, or at least considered special by some groups of people. Others set up churches in his name, and others had described his life for him. To be honest, I'm not sure we know for a fact (beyond doubt) that he WAS special in a Godly sort of way. (I guess I'm thinking of the theory that Jesus was literally the King of Jews, of royal blood,...and that he was supposed to free the Jews from Roman oppression) All we have to rely on are scrolls and documents that state that he was godly. What if miracles were attributed to him in order to convert people to Christianity? After all, it would have been hard to convert anyone to follow a mere man back then. I think that almost certainly they would have to attribute miracles to him in order to gain new converts. It would be the only way to outdo the pagan Gods, who never sent down anyone as real as Jesus Christ. That is only my opinion of course.

Maybe (as you've mentioned) the problem for a new Messiah (whether fake/the anti-christ, or real) would be to appear in this world without any special powers,....since the general public believes Christ is supposed to have supernatural powers. Maybe this person/being/creature would have to live out his/it's "holy" life first, and then have people write about his acts and teachings,...just like they did about the original Christ. Only this time, his "teachings" would subtly steer the world toward whatever goal the force behind the conspiracy had in mind. It would take many years before any effects could be seen, but when you're trying to change the world, I suppose a few decades isn't such a long time after all. Information has a way of spreading faster these days. If the Church was behind the conspiracy, the new "Messiah" would almost certainly have to perform miracles. If science was behind the conspiracy, the "Messiah" would have to dispute the "lies" that were written about his former life,....and in effect would steer people clear of the Mother Church. Of course, even for science, miracles might be very helpful to their cause,...they're just not completely necessary.



If the conspirators are part of the Church, You're probably right. Maybe in the coming decades science will find a way to have a man perform "miracles".



I think, in order to make this man important in the eyes of the public, the power behind the conspiracy would have to find a subtle way to make this man visible in the eyes of the world. He would have to be accepted (at least as someone who is special) by the Mother Church. He would have to stick with at least some parts of the bible, (depending on who the master-mind is,....Church or Science). As for miracles,.... as I've said, I think Science may be able to make that happen.



This would be the ultimate problem for a real Messiah,....meeting the expectations of the people. Would he do it? Would he be able to do it? Or would he only be armed with words of knowledge/enlightenment? Maybe the real Messiah will not be noticed, because the "Anti-Christ" will be too busy performing "miracles".



Whether or not he will be attacked will depend on the method in which he will come into the world's eye, and how long it will take for his message to spread. I bet that finding support for him from any/every side will help lessen the attacks. If that support is forced, or voluntarily given, I don't know. Mind control could have a powerful effect. (I'm talking about brain implants, which, in a basic form, already exist) If certain influential religious leaders "meet" with him, and emerge as "converts", I think a major portion of the world could follow. I wouldn't expect everyone to become believers over one night.



Well, maybe aliens could someday come into the equation, although I don't think that will be absolutely necessary, depending on how science continues to progress over these next few decades.

Yes. That's what I'm talking about; Science helping create "the" Anti-Christ, for whatever purpose (the purpose of the Church, or Science exclusively, or for the benefit of both).

Im sure in revelations it states about 'the image of the beast' and the power to give life to the image so it could speak.....in genesis god created in 'his' image....ok..so lets duplicate that here.. 'image' mean duplicate...perhaps clone?

False prophet will want to make a clone of the beast.....the clone will talk *duh*..however due to sciences of fracturing of the mind/split personalities etc... it is totally possible to indoctrine this figure to make him believe everything tought..

Now christ...possible another clone figure...from research i found that cloning of humans was perfected in 1927 in germany...long time ago...

It is totally possible to clone the christ figure....indoctrine him for full agenda of religion...and thus being messaic......he is a puppet.

Anti-christ can have the same principle...except be opposite in teachings

Overall? Its going to happen, whether real or not..its going to happen.. If revelation is not prophecy, it will definately be a script.

beast having 7 heads.. one wounded... 7 heads = 7 personalities... one wounded...personality removed, replaced..healed...

Food for thought.

Merger

People, in the light of this subject; yeah, the expectations of alot of people will be to see a messiah perform miracles and healings.

But what is the "Power" behind the miracles and healings done by Jesus, as descibed in the bible? The Power of God and the power of the belief in God and that Jesus is His Son.. and not some supernatural power Jesus himself was supposed to have. God is the one who performs the healings and other miracles. The only thing Jesus had to do was speak a few words or spit in a blind man's eyes and things like that. Even a woman is described in the bible.. she believed that just by touching Jesus' robes while the man walked by would heal her.. and she was healed.. because of her faith. Not because the robe had powers.

Even the cloths of (I think it was) Peter are described to have been used by people to heal.. not because the cloths had any power, or Peter had, but because of the faith in God.

Anyways, I think the AC is described in revelations as someone who will proclaim himself to be God... therefore all the power he is going to show will seem to come from him.. (behind the scenes satan is pulling the strings however) I believe this will be crucial in seperating the true Jesus from the false one.. Jesus never claimed to be God.. many, too many people nowadays believe he did make that claim.. which screws up the entire picture of Jesus. I think it's all part of the "big conspiracy" yes, and we are approaching the fullfillment of this.

I see the anti-christ as being something different. He/she may not even know they are the anti-christ.

I see a personality that speaks intelligently but says look: "God exists, but he's what you make it. He is not interested in controlling us here and wants us to be happy. Sure Jesus spoke wise words, but do we even know that he existed? Sure Mohammed and the Buhdda were great teachers...but where are their gods? Our world is falling apart and we look to god. God has allowed us to fail and we have...now is the time for change. This is what we need to do, stop looking to god...GROW UP! Here is a new way of thinking, let's try these tools out that I have developed...

Something along that line. The anti-christ is going to be an appealing individual. He is going to make sense. What we have to be careful of is what is his goal? What kind of people is he creating? Will he unify the world because we all drop to a lower secular style of basic spirituality? He has to be successful in some way.

The other possibilty is that the anti-christ is someone who does all these things not for everyone, but for a very large select group that feels persecuted. The poor are those who most likely will take heart to someone that sells them hope and revolution. I think of the Venezuelan president right now that sells a fairy tale to his people or the Iranian president that stands strong and says "Muslims are strong, enough with the West!". Jesse Jackson snows people at times too...as does George Bush.

I fear that an economic collapse (maybe based on oil) will breed this person. Perhaps they provide an energy solution to those that will follow his words. People will do anything to protect their kids and not face hardships...a person that plays on this and convinces them that god exists, but is failing us will have quite an audience. He then could easily begin his plan of creating humans in his image.

Ok that's just my initial thoughts...so if I was rambling, sorry.

I think you may be absolutely right. I'm a big believer in placebos, and religion/faith can certainly act as a placebo. There is at least one person in my life who believes she has been cured by a higher power. She was diagnosed with cancer. She prayed, and one night she believes she saw a "light being" enter her body. When she returned to the hospital, they told her the cancer was completely gone. I consider this person to be very credible,...but who knows? Was she truly healed by God, or did her faith in God help her mind heal herself? The mind is a very powerful thing, and I believe we have the power within ourselves, to heal ourselves. All we need to do is truly believe.

I think you've got something there. Hitler was able to gain a very strong following due to the hardships that people had to endure before he came into power. He promised to improve the economy, and he delivered. He made Germany into one of the strongest countries in the world. His downfall was the hiddeous, and violent persecution of one particular group,... the Jews (though other minority groups were also included). Though this man's actions/orders were horrific, a large amount of people viewed him as Germany's savior! He did do a lot of good for Germany, but, as we know today, was responsible for one of the biggest genocides in human history.

I'm about to make a pretty wild assumption, one which I don't expect people to start believing. I guess you could say I'm playing with an idea here, so bare with me.

I guess one could say ( with certainty ) that Global Warming was an idea which came from a few Scientists. Since the 1970s, "human-caused" Global Warming is an idea which is today accepted by at least 70% of the world's population ( that is my wild guess, though I can't say that for the scientific community ). It has been hammered into us for years, and I think most of the non-scientific world would never think of it as an impossibility, or lie.

The Kyoto protocol had some very high expectations from certain countries who were willing to sign. The proof of that is the fact that the U.S. refused to sign, as the expectations would force U.S. economy to slow down signifficantly. Economically, the most developed nations would have to suffer the most.
Here is an article I found some time ago: San Francisco Chronicle . Whether or not this source is reliable, I can't tell you. I hope that it is,....and if it is, I can certainly understand why any developed nation would refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement.

Imagine that one day, one of the most powerful nations is forced by the rest of the world to comply with the Kyoto protocol ( or some other scientifically-supported protocol/treaty ). The economy goes right down the drain. Gas prices might rise to unaffordable costs, people are out of jobs, and pretty soon instead of the U.S. receiving immigrants, the U.S. will be shipping out American immigrants to Europe, "in search of a better life".
Those who remain behind will be vulnerable to the Hitler-type personalities, as they start voting their "Savior" ( religious or not,...though people in tougher times do prefer a bit of religion and faith in their lives ) into office. I guess that the official leader of the country wouldn't have to be the Anti-Christ,...it could be an ordinary citizen, a "holy man" who could organize a group of people.
I would assume that the U.S. economy is pretty tightly tied into the world economy. If it were to fail, the effects would be seen all over the world. Maybe Europe, ( mainly the United Nations, which, I believe I've heard supposedly has something to do with "The New World Order". Correct me if I'm completely wrong. ) would end up having "the answer" for the poor Americans, as well as the rest of the world.

How things stand today: Currently "human-caused" Global Warming is a big issue. George W. Bush refused to sign the Kyoto Protocol. He is currently seen as the enemy by most environmentalists, and increasingly by the rest of the world (the war in Iraq is not helping), as global warming and environmental threats today are more popular in the media than ever. Elections are coming up. Al Gore is coming out with a new movie called "An Inconvenient Truth" , in which the film maker is tracking Al Gore's quest to "save the environment", and preach Global Warming. Some believe that Al Gore may try to run for President in the next election, and many believe that this movie will help him do that. He himself does not have to be elected, as long as an environmentally friendly candidate steps up,...most likely from the Democratic party.

Will the next environmentally friendly U.S. President help the "Anti-Christ" come to power, by plunging the nation into poverty through the guise of "saving the earth from ourselves"?

This is a WILD assumption,... I know,.... but I thought I'd share. Is this a completely insane idea that could never come to pass? Who knows. Stranger things have happened.

That was one of my ideas as well,.... having the "Messiah" be controlled by a secret power,..a government, politicians, the Church, or some secret society we're either familiar with, or have never heard of.

IF in fact the prophecy of the beast is true, ..... Maybe the seven heads represent seven different people in power, or seven different people acting out the orders of the "Anti-Christ". Is it a requirement that the Anti-Christ be a public figure? Can he be the puppet master, or does he have to be the puppet?

It won't make any difference to me, since I don't believe in the "old" Messiah/Savior, so unless the new, false Jesus tells all of his wacky believers to kill all heathens, it doesn't really affect me.

But look at it this way. Every time the wind blows a different direction, somebody creates a new, "true" Christian church with sometime slight, sometimes huge differences of opinion with whoever current church authority might be. What would likely happen is that half of the people would go along with the new Christ, and half would not. It would be like a stock split. So you could either choose to believe this new guy, or stick with the Original Jesus, or go with one of the newer models.

Either way, somebody's gonna get nuked.

It might make a difference once this new Messiah starts to have an effect on who/what people start voting for. It might affect how and where you, and your family live.



You're right. New branches of existing religions are created almost on a daily basis. The point is that this engineered "Messiah", or "The Anti-Christ" as others would call him, would come to exist in this world not to create a new church, but to fulfill a secret agenda (either belonging to Science, the Church, both, or some other secret society we are/are not familiar with). That means world-changing consequences orchestrated through believers, and certainly not for the public's well-being.

If such a thing were ever to happen, the coming of the true Messiah would hardly make your life any worse, and it would be of no concern, except the religious kind.

This is actually the plot of Chuck Palahniuk's 'Choke' The main character learns from his mothers diary (he gets someone to translate it because it is in Italian), that he was cloned from DNA of an old crusade relic, the foreskin of Christ, that was stolen from a chapel. He questions whether he is the new messiah, and if we were supposed to create one or wait for him.

At the same time his friend starts building a chapel on land that he has inherited, using all kinds of fabolous rocks and architecture, the whole plot seems to be going in an incredible direction, and the ending is very clever. There is a lot of sex and stuff in the book though.