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Anyone Here Think Zacarias Moussaoui Can Get A Fair Trial In America?

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posted on Apr, 6 2006 @ 06:38 PM
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Do you think there are 12 good men and true anywhere in the US of A who have not already formed an opinion as to Zacarias Moussaoui’s guilt?

Zacarias Moussaoui was born in France of Moroccan ancestry, and is now age 33. He is a citizen of France. He first attended a flight school in Oklahoma. He washed out and then moved to Egan, MN. There he paid another flight school the $8,000 fee in cash in advance. The second school became suspicious and called the FBI. Moussaoui was arrested by the FBI on immigration irregularity charges on August 16, 26 days before the Nine Eleven Event.

He has been in Federal custody since, 4 years, 7 months and 25 days, as of today. April 6. The FBI identified Moussaoui as a stand-by replacement for the “20th terrorist.” Who never materialized. Jeez! That makes him 2 times removed from the act. Wow! Is that remote or is that remote? Could Moussaoui be a second Manchurian candidate? He steadfastly refused to answer any questions put to him by the FBI. See the 5th Amendment. [I’m surprised he was not subjected to extraordinary rendition to Syria to see what they might learn? Hmm.]

The 6 charges against Moussaoui include serious charges of “Conspiracy to Commit Murder” which carries the death penalty. At the start of his trial Moussaoui shocked everyone by pleading guilty to all the charges. In the elocution of his plea, he boasted he was personally chosen by Osama to fly a Boeing 747 into either the White House or the nation’s Capitol. People under serious charges frequently agree to plead guilty in exchange for a lesser sentence. In this case, Moussaoui’s plea surprised his lawyers who never had the opportunity to attempt a plea bargain.

Federal rules provide for a bifurcated two stage trial. Trial is in the U. S. District Court for Eastern Virginia, in Alexandria. Honorable Leonie M. Brinkema, presiding. She’s a 1976 J.D. grad from Rutgers. She has been on the bench since her lifetime appointment by President Clinton in 1993. The U.S. Attorney Charles Rosenberg is the prosecutor. He was appointed by President Bush. Prosecutors serve at the pleasure of the President. I imagine the president asked him to do make a public spectacle of the trial to raise his own standings in the polls.

In 1938, the Supreme Court said a plea of guilty must be made “knowingly, voluntarily and intelligently.” It is certain the question of the “intelligently” of Moussaoui’s plea will be raised on appeal. The jury in the first phase of his trial found Moussaoui to be legally vulnerable to the death penalty.

The second phase, beginning today, is a parade of horribles by every victim’s surviving relative or friend who wants his or her moment in history. The prosecutor has 40 in line to testify. The tv films of the crashes and collapses of the WTC towers is shown over and over. Amateur videos of many people jumping to their deaths from high up in the towers is shown.

It is disgraceful. It is a side show. It is a freak show. It is in no way the calm, deliberative and dispassionate trial America likes to tout as the standard for the world. This is the kind of judicial antics I’d expect to see in Myanmar or North Korea or the old USSR or Saddam’s Iraq. America is having its national cantharis. Or is it more exactly, its national enema? Anyone care to bet on the final verdict?

The verdict will be automatically appealed to the 4th Circuit of the United States Court of Appeals. C4 is known for its hard line on enforcing criminal laws and for being conservative if not reticent on enforcing civil liberties. Say good-by Zacarius, it was good to know you!

[edit on 4/6/2006 by donwhite]




posted on Apr, 6 2006 @ 07:51 PM
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It is disgraceful. It is a side show. It is a freak show. It is in no way the calm, deliberative and dispassionate trial America likes to tout as the standard for the world. This is the kind of judicial antics I’d expect to see in Myanmar or North Korea or the old USSR or Saddam’s Iraq. America is having its national cantharis. Or is it more exactly, its national enema? Anyone care to bet on the final verdict?


Actually, yes it is, in capital punishment cases the prosecution always puts people to the stand in this part of the trial to show the jury the defendant deserves the death penalty, they are required to do so, its their job. So, in this case if the prosecution did not do everything in their power to get the death penalty then my dear friend it would truly be a “National Disgrace To English Fair Trial Concept!", otherwise it would be neglect on the part of the prosecution.
However I am amused that you think in NK or the former USSR they would even have a trial for such a thing. I imagine a quick trip to the gulag or the shooting range would have been the norm.

[edit on 6-4-2006 by WestPoint23]



posted on Apr, 6 2006 @ 08:47 PM
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posted by WestPoint23:

Don W: It is disgraceful. It is a side show. It is a freak show . .
Actually, yes it is, in capital punishment cases the prosecution always puts people to the stand in this part of the trial to show the jury the defendant deserves the death penalty . . I am amused you think NK or the former USSR would have a trial for such a thing. I imagine a quick trip to the gulag or the shooting range would have been the norm. [Edited by Don W]


Actually, you might be surprised how strict the Soviets adhered to their own standards of trials and justice. The KGB handler of Aldrich Ames was recalled to Lubyanka for trial on charges he was falsifying expenses. He had been living in a NYC penthouse, running in prostitutes nightly and buying and selling on the stock market, all on KGB funds.

His defense was he needed to “look” the part of a foreign businessman as his cover. The KGB Inspector General found insufficient evidence to convict and he was freed of charges. He was administratively reassigned to a backwater post outside Leningrad. Most of what we think we know about foreign justice is pure CIA fabrication.

In 1972, in a case called Furman v. Geogia, the Supreme Court held the death penally as applied in America was unconstitutional. The penally fell disproportionally on blacks and the poor.

In 1976, in Gregg v Georgia, the Supreme Court re-authorized the death penalty provided certain rules were changed to make the cases less subject to emotional antics. [My descriptive opinion.] The bifurcated trial was born. The first phase is the innocent or guilty phase. Strict rules of evidence apply. The second phase is to determine whether to give death or life (often without parole). Rules of evidence hardly apply in this emotionally charged and highly dramatic phase. Showmanship reigns supreme. A tragic-comedy of the highest order. A judicial farce. A disgrace to a Century 21 would-be world power.

Associated Press, July 7, 2003. “Since 1976, when the Supreme Court allowed states to reinstate the death penalty, 111 people in 25 states have been cleared through DNA evidence. They have been released after spending years on death row for crimes they did not commit, while police now resume searching for the true culprits, years behind.” [Not all 111 were on death row, but all were wrongfully convicted.]

[edit on 4/6/2006 by donwhite]



posted on Apr, 6 2006 @ 09:46 PM
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WP23 Posted: "However I am amused that you think in NK or the former USSR they would even have a trial for such a thing. I imagine a quick trip to the gulag or the shooting range would have been the norm."


In the OJ Simpson case, the defense lawyers detected a photo of OJ’s bedroom taken earlier without a bloody sock. A later photo showed the bloody sock in plain view. No one likes to think “planted” evidence but what else can you call it? It is interesting to note the prosecutors missed that. Were they incompetent, indifferent or just insolent? Or did they think they had a slam dunk case and spent their evening hours engaged in other sports? As in Marcia Clark. Strike one against the prosecutors.

Then, the faux pas. They boxed Mark Furman into saying he never used the N word. Anyone over 18 knows any white cop anywhere uses the N word a lot. It’s part of the American culture, and a tragedy. It was stupid not to deal with that issue properly. Strike two on the prosecution team.

The brazen glove demo. A person with OJ’s hand size should have bought a dozen pairs of that glove and tried it on, over and over to make sure it would work. Then, you ask him to try on the glove. Oops! And Johnny Cochrane reminded the jury, “If it does not fit, you must acquit.” Strike three. He’s gutta here.

Remember the Tim McVeigh case in its closing moments? The FBI finally comes clean and informs the defendant’s lawyers they have “overlooked” 4,000 pages of documents they were under court order to turn over to the defendants before the trial, two years earlier. Oops. Sorry guys. We just mislaid the papers, no evil intent on our part. Just good ol’ boys over here.

The judges gave short shrift to the appeals. In fact, the Appeals court ruled so quicky that I know in my heart of hearts the judges did not have time to read those 4,000 pages. The only legal remedy was to set aside the verdict and order a new trial. Yup. A new trial. Instead, we got a farce.

Don’t forget the FBI technician who failsafed 50 to 100 testimonials in trials. Always adverse to the defendant. The West Virginia medical examiner who falsified in over 100 cases. Always adverse to the defendant. And these are just the cases that make the headlines.

I have no doubt that between 10 and 20% of convicted persons in America are innocent. That’s about 200,000 men and women sitting in prison, right now. A lot of them are not going to be happy campers when they finally do get out. To a devastated life. Unemployable. Hopeless and alone. $50 and a new suit or dress. Wow! Hey, you ex-cons, don't you dare recidivate! Three strikes and you’re in for life.

So who cares, you ask. It is the system I am trying to protect, not necessarily the people. The system. It transcends individuals. We are killing our system.

[edit on 4/6/2006 by donwhite]



posted on Apr, 6 2006 @ 09:55 PM
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He'll get a fair trial, although I doubt whether he deserves a fair trial. I dunno why they don't just give him to the Moroccans; let them 'deal' with him.

If you'd fully thought it through, donwhite, you'd realise that it's actually in the Bush administration's interests to ensure that he gets a fair trial. If he gets a fair trial, and is found guilty of the charges brought against him, then the Bush administration gets to go around saying 'look, we told you, the system actually works...we arrested a terrorist, gathered the evidence against him, gave him a fair trial and the jury found him guilty of the charges arrayed against him.'



posted on Apr, 6 2006 @ 10:10 PM
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There is something very strange about the whole Moussaoui story, so perhaps you will allow an equally strange supposition. Remember that for the longest time they couldn't even try the man because his lawyers kept insisting that the government was withholding too much key information. I believe that the information that was successfully supressed probably dealt with the money trail. There is something there that could never be allowed to see the light of day.

Considering how closely Moussaoui corresponds to the classic American "patsy", I would bet a few bucks (but no more) that "Al Quaida" never heard of the guy - and it was someone else pulling his strings. This, of course, would be why Moussaoui has to go.

Now for the kicker. I think he's already gone. A number of stories have remarked on a distinct change of behavior during the last month or so, and the "new" Moussaoui seems to be doing everything in his power to guarantee a death penalty. What's wrong with this picture? I think the poor dummy was quietly dispatched, say 90 days ago or so, and a very good double is now putting on a really good act.

A "legal" death penalty can now be assured, an execution faked, the double collects a big bonus, and all attempts to dig into Moussaoui's past are abandoned.

Fantasy? These days how can you tell?

- Strider



posted on Apr, 6 2006 @ 10:15 PM
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Strider, that's probably something to do with the way the intelligence, on the man, was collected. Agencies like the CIA and NSA aren't in the business of going around telling every man and his dog how they track people down and how they collect ELINT on that person.

Back in the 90s, someone in the CIA leaked to the press, the Washingtonpost (i think), that Osama was being tracked by his satellite phone. Osama read the article and promptly dumped that phone, got a new one and, presumably since then, dumps the phones every couple of weeks and gets new ones.

[edit on 7-4-2006 by Lanton]



posted on Apr, 6 2006 @ 10:20 PM
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And that is the saddest part of it all, Strider. We are killing our system. We date it back to 1215, the Magna Carta - Great Charter - which granted trial by jury (to the nobility).

England has worked on the Common Law and the democratic Parliamentary system over 600 years. Democracy is neither cheap nor quick. 2,450 of our guys have found that out the hard way. How many more will die? Say Hello, Richard Nixon. Say Hello, Geo W. You are both leaving a L E G A C Y the world will not soon forget.

[edit on 4/6/2006 by donwhite]



posted on Apr, 7 2006 @ 01:26 AM
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Richard nixon? I wont even go there



anyhow, no, his trial should not continue, once he admited his guilt he should of faced firing squad.

[edit on 7-4-2006 by XphilesPhan]



posted on Apr, 7 2006 @ 08:09 AM
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Originally posted by donwhite
Democracy is neither cheap nor quick. 2,450 of our guys have found that out the hard way. How many more will die? Say Hello, Richard Nixon. Say Hello, Geo W. You are both leaving a L E G A C Y the world will not soon forget.

I am not sure what ludicrous point you are trying to make, but donwhite, in talking of "L E G A C Y's" that involve "our guys," be sure that in reference to Nixon, that you include, Eisenhower, Kennedy, and Johnson. Further, in that genre of "our guys," how about add Thomas Jefferson, Adams, Roosevelt, Wilson, Clinton, among others. Your subjective selectivism is discernable and certainly not worthy of anything deemed objective.

Personally, an excellent alternative to this alleged "unfair" trial and subsequent death penalty would be to have Mr. Zacarias Moussaoui chained to a spot in or very, very near to 'ground zero' and let the people of New York and those families that lost loved ones, family, etc. visit him. I suppose that you would then call that cruel and unusual punishment or perhaps even not "fair," as in this unfair trial, eh? Just 8-12 hours would be all that would be required to give Mr. Zacarias Moussaoui the real fair trial he is deserving of.

Your diatribe is simply a mockery and symbolic of one who supports and sympathizes with 'creatures' of his kind. You assert that there is unfairness going on, all the while forgeting that he has previously "knowingly, voluntarily and intelligently" admitted guilt--on a number of occasions. As such, your continued diatribe only serves to give this undeserving 'creature' and thug martyr status, which me'thinks is your underlying purpose/intentions anyhow.

Politics aside, English common law aside, in the most myopic of definitions, would that make you a terrorist supporter?






seekerof

[edit on 7-4-2006 by Seekerof]



posted on Apr, 7 2006 @ 08:22 AM
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No he didn't, know the trial is a show and a mockery to the justice system is just to show American people that even when we don't have Bin-Laden at least we have a non very smart muslin terrorist wanna be to take his place in the guillotine.

So Americans should be happy and content the Bad guy will die.

I even wonder why they are spending all the tax payer money on his trial.

A waste of money and a waste of time.

All they had to do was to do a public execution and people would have been as happy.



posted on Apr, 7 2006 @ 08:28 AM
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This man is insane, a paranoid schitzophrenic with dilussions- I bet he gets life in jail.
I find it odd that both him and the shoe bomber look retarded.

He sits thru the trial and laughs.
This man is demented. I am not sure about him or how we came about nabbing this man.
He could very well be just someone they nabbed in order to have a trial for the world to see.

Whatever.



posted on Apr, 7 2006 @ 09:32 AM
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The short answer: Yes, I absolutely think he can.

The very question itself is an insult to Americans. The average American citizen is quite intelligent (contrary to the opinions portrayed to the world by the media). I am certain the jury would be fair, regardless of the defendant or charges against him or her.


My personal opinion? I could care less if his trial is fair or not, there is enough factual evidence for me to believe he is guilty. The guy openly admits it for pete’s sake, factor that with all the hard evidence and there isn’t much to consider.


[edit on 7-4-2006 by skippytjc]



posted on Apr, 7 2006 @ 09:58 AM
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the guy was in prison the moment he stepped into the country


and yet they want to try him as a bomber on 9/11


pure rubish

the word `scape goat` comes to mind - the guy is a friutloop - and that will be ignored in the` war on oil` trial of a bomber.



posted on Apr, 7 2006 @ 10:03 AM
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Originally posted by Harlequin
the guy was in prison the moment he stepped into the country




You kidding me? That’s a complete lie. The guy was free enough to apply for, and attend a flight school. Had a place to stay and a roommate. Please explain what you mean, because in the context you use its a total fallacy.

His actions got him where he is, not one other thing.

[edit on 7-4-2006 by skippytjc]



posted on Apr, 7 2006 @ 10:21 AM
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Lets be realistic.

If it is true that 9/11 was caused by outside forces, then we may have a legitimate trial here.

If it is true that 9/11 was a complete sham, concocted and masterminded here in the USA, then we have a patsy.

You decide.



posted on Apr, 7 2006 @ 10:38 AM
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If moussaoui is guity of not doing what he could to prevent 9/11 then shouldn't the FBI supervisors who did nothing to prevent it also be culpable? Moussaoui has already been tried in the court of public opinion and found guilty, he's a dead man the rest is all dog and pony. He is our scape goat, a sacrificial lamb we no longer have to dig around looking at conspiracy thoeories. A realative of a 9/11 flight 93 said he was an Al-qaeda wanna be, bingo.

But I am writing a song for him none the less

Feedback welcome Think mickey mouse MOU SSA OUI no E
Moussaoui Moussaoui

He didn't pull the trigger he couldn't fly a plane
He was in jail for 9/11 but he's guitly just the same


Won't we all feel a little bit safer not having to worry a bout Zach



posted on Apr, 7 2006 @ 11:26 AM
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DonWhite, interesting argument.

The claim that Moussaoui's trial is nothing more than the dog and pony show that we want to see has some merit to it, but you are missing the point. Do you actually believe that this is about "bringing out the truth"? The truth is what we are ready to believe and justice is what our 'perception' of the truth is. What difference does it make if he were to be judged by the -English Fair Trial- or our system of a jury? Is collective prejudice in some way less potent than individual prejudice ?

What I find most insulting is the sanctimonious platitudes that they drown people with, such confidence in the gullibility of the masses. This farce of a trial is but a delusion that we all want to believe, a tribute to our modern delusions of justice, civilization and culture. For in the end they are all killed- lethal injection, electric chair or being shot in the head in some dark alley is all the same. Third world gulags or first world jurisprudence, the results are shockingly the same.

For if in "God we trust" that what would our messiah do? Forgive this man, show him our kindness, pray for his soul ? No, such talk is blasphemous- hang this minion of the devil, out with his “crucifixion”, send this “martyr” to his 72 waiting virgins- each to his own ! Why forgive when you can forget ?

Maybe in time everybody would be asked to take part in the jury, cast in your votes- American Hangman. Personally I don’t understand why there needs to be a trail, he says he is guilty, we ‘know’ he is guilty whats the point of a trail ? To let the lawyers ‘prove’ that he is guilty ?
Let them hang him in downtown Manhattan to the jeering mobs if they want, it makes no difference anyway, the terrorists will still be blowing themselves up and the US military would still have to traverse the globe hunting mad men .



posted on Apr, 7 2006 @ 08:39 PM
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I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

1) I was born before “under God” was added. It is a insult to God to claim to be “under God” when we patently are not.

2) “ . . one Nadine, indivisible . . “ just ask Republicans. They work endlessly to make this “. . 50 states all divided . . “ It is far easier to “control” a state legislature than a Congress, although they have just about done that, too.

3) “ . . with liberty and justice for all.” Now, that mocks all of us.

If lying was a misdemeanor, we could not repeat this.



posted on Apr, 7 2006 @ 11:38 PM
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Originally posted by dgtempe
Lets be realistic.

If it is true that 9/11 was caused by outside forces, then we may have a legitimate trial here.

If it is true that 9/11 was a complete sham, concocted and masterminded here in the USA, then we have a patsy.

You decide.

What about;

If it is true that 9/11 was orchestrated by the tooth fairies working in conjunction with the mole-men who live at the centre of the earth.

Cos it's as likely that that's the case than 9/11 being orchestrated by the government.



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