Premature babies 'feel true pain'

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posted on Apr, 5 2006 @ 01:28 PM
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I wonder how this effects pro-choice peoples thinking on abortion......especially abortion after the 25 week?


The scientists registered the brain activity in the babies - aged between 25 and 45 weeks from conception - before, during and after nurses performed blood tests using a heel lance.

The results showed a surge of blood and oxygen in the sensory area of their brains, meaning the pain was processed in the higher levels of the brain, the team said.

The team claimed the implications of the findings were clear, saying there was a potential for pain experience to influence brain development.


news.bbc.co.uk...



[edit on 5-4-2006 by ferretman2]




posted on Apr, 5 2006 @ 02:25 PM
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The brain develops prior to the complete neural system, as well as glial bodies and neurons, in humans and other mammals. Thus, a reaction in the brain tissue does not necessarily imply feeling or pain. Major nerves are indeed present, and I don't doubt their functional ability, but I don't think a neuronal reaction necessarily provides enough evidence to conclude that the baby is feeling pain.

It will be interesting to see if any further studies are produced soon.

~MFP



posted on Apr, 5 2006 @ 02:29 PM
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Originally posted by ferretman2
I wonder how this effects pro-choice peoples thinking on abortion......especially abortion after the 25 week?


It doesn't effect my thinking on abortion at all. It's the woman's choice. I don't like the idea of abortion. I think it's sad and I wish we could get the numbers down to zero. But it doesn't make me think I can tell a woman what to do with her body.



posted on Apr, 5 2006 @ 05:54 PM
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Originally posted by bsl4doc
The brain develops prior to the complete neural system, as well as glial bodies and neurons, in humans and other mammals. Thus, a reaction in the brain tissue does not necessarily imply feeling or pain. Major nerves are indeed present, and I don't doubt their functional ability, but I don't think a neuronal reaction necessarily provides enough evidence to conclude that the baby is feeling pain.

It will be interesting to see if any further studies are produced soon.

~MFP


You support the killing of babies who doctors say won't live a long, normal life and are suffering pain.

How long after a 25 week birth would you say a baby should be kept alive before, who, would decide they are in 'too much' pain, and killed?



posted on Apr, 5 2006 @ 06:12 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
It doesn't effect my thinking on abortion at all. It's the woman's choice. I don't like the idea of abortion. I think it's sad and I wish we could get the numbers down to zero. But it doesn't make me think I can tell a woman what to do with her body.


I think that now that this information is now available to those involved in the abortion treatment, that necessary action can be taken to prevent any pain to the feutus (whether through regulations or medical anaesthesis.

However I do beleive that abortion should cause some kind of legal action taken.

Technically, laws state that it unlawful to harm animals of any kind, infact it is illegal to to be drunk and disorderly in public where I live however aborting a foetus is not regulated by the legal system in the same way.

Will laws be altered to reflect the fact that suffering is proven scientifically to occur to the foetus?

Will benefits be payable to individuals whom have experienced an abortion of their own children and not been aware of the full facts of the effects the medical treatment had upon the children?

Would these people have had abortions had they been aware that their actions caused pain to the unborn child?

Why were these tests not conducted prior to the legalilties of abortions being made when the technology became available?



posted on Apr, 6 2006 @ 06:44 PM
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Doesn't change my outlook on abortion since i'm leaning most towards pro-choice.

If a girl/woman get's pregnant with a boyfriend or no-strings sex contact then it's their own fault but if they get raped by a stranger that scarred them for life or by a family member that would produce an imbred child with MANY health problems, then I think abortion is valid, also abortion is justifiable when the child has no chance for a normal life OR it poses a MAJOR health concern towards the mother (I.E. that she might die from giving birth).

Don't get me wrong, i'm all for adoption, my wife was adopted but she was a child produced from a boyfriend/girlfriend arangement that split up after the pregnancy was concluded.



posted on Apr, 6 2006 @ 06:54 PM
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Familiar with the concept of a reflex, anyone? The body has local response-triggers that, upon reception of a pain signal, move the body out of danger before the pain can be felt consciously. In some cases, the pain is never consciously felt at all. I've had this happen when I accidentally touched a hot stove; my hand jerked back from the stove by reflex, sometimes without my ever feeling any pain at all. A pain signal was sent, but it was acted upon by my body's involuntary movement before I could become conscious of that signal.

The key element of physical consciousness in a human being is the cerebral cortex. Everything else is an auxiliary device, as it were. The cortex is what processes information and supplies it to whatever the mysterious intaker is that we call consciousness. But, while it is the most important part of the brain in terms of consciousness, it is also the least important in terms of physiological survival, and so the last to develop in gestation.

I should note, as well, that 25 weeks is into the third trimester, which under the standards of the Roe decision lies outside the time when abortion is a constitutional right. The overwhelming majority of abortions are performed in the first trimester (12 weeks and earlier). This information, any misinterpreting aside, has no implications for those.



posted on Apr, 7 2006 @ 05:18 AM
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Originally posted by Two Steps Forward
Familiar with the concept of a reflex, anyone? The body has local response-triggers that, upon reception of a pain signal, move the body out of danger before the pain can be felt consciously. In some cases, the pain is never consciously felt at all. I've had this happen when I accidentally touched a hot stove; my hand jerked back from the stove by reflex, sometimes without my ever feeling any pain at all. A pain signal was sent, but it was acted upon by my body's involuntary movement before I could become conscious of that signal.

The key element of physical consciousness in a human being is the cerebral cortex. Everything else is an auxiliary device, as it were. The cortex is what processes information and supplies it to whatever the mysterious intaker is that we call consciousness. But, while it is the most important part of the brain in terms of consciousness, it is also the least important in terms of physiological survival, and so the last to develop in gestation.


A fair comment. However surely if experts were investigating such as whether pain is an experience a baby can incur, the brain activity would have to be substancially different in order to differenciate between the baby comming into contact with a foreign object and experiencing actual physical pain as you or I know it.

By this I mean that if you were to conduct a brain scan to measure my reaction from receiving a firm grip on my arm and then skin penetration via injection , I am sure the difference would be measurable.

Would the measurment of brain activity be different if the individual were unconcious at the time?

I suppose you can only measure the level of pain inflicted depending upon the level of concoiusness the subject would have.



posted on Apr, 7 2006 @ 05:27 AM
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Originally posted by ferretman2
I wonder how this effects pro-choice peoples thinking on abortion......especially abortion after the 25 week?


The scientists registered the brain activity in the babies - aged between 25 and 45 weeks from conception - before, during and after nurses performed blood tests using a heel lance.


That's 7 to 11 months. That may be the first trimester for elephants, but not humans.

They're talking about actual born babies. This has nothing to do with aborting fetuses.



posted on Apr, 7 2006 @ 05:28 AM
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7 to 11 months is hardly a "premie" either. A kid that hasn't come out by 9 months needs Paxil.



posted on Apr, 7 2006 @ 07:32 AM
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Originally posted by RANT
The scientists registered the brain activity in the babies - aged between 25 and 45 weeks from conception - before, during and after nurses performed blood tests using a heel lance.


25 weeks = 6 months (+1 week)
45 weeks = 11 months (+1 week).

Abortion lower limit in UK is set to 24 weeks, therefor it would be too late for a termination.

Premature birth would be classified as after this period but prior to full term.

Having re-read the article and the conclusion of the experts investigation


The team claimed the implications of the findings were clear, saying there was a potential for pain experience to influence brain development.

Each baby requiring intensive care is subjected to an average of 14 procedures per day, many of which are considered by clinical staff to be painful, such as heel lancing for blood tests and inserting chest tubes.


it was to ensure the comfort of the baby and nothing whatsoever related to effects of pain on aborted feutus'.

However, I was under the impression that such experiments had already taken place in the past and found to show that it is possible for a fetus to feel pain.

Abortion Facts.com

Thanks for the smack upside the head Rant, think I should have read the article twice.

The experiment in the original article in this post is positive and is only for the benefit of the childs well being.





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