Originally posted by Omnipocket
delerious: i couldnt agree with you more that the gov't is taking away more and more rights, and that they dont really even care if they hide it anymore. i do, however, need clarification on your opinion concerning when and if people will ever care. you say that it'll be a long time before the people take the intitative, but when they're already scared to death of the gov'ts power, how logical is it to believe that they'll stand up for themselves later when the gov't has become MORE powerful?

It's actually pretty logical. As of now the government is able to do what they do by claiming they do it in the name of justice. However in the future there may not be a cause for them to do it and thus they will become a threat rather than a helping force. Now iv always said, when faced with the choice of A.Follow your government and shoot your friends and family or B. Leave the government and protect your family, 3/4ths of the military and government fields will leave the government. IF things keep going this way, and they end up withwhat you beleive there will be blood, and once theres no other choice people will have to stand up. There's no other way about it.

Ok I went off on a ramble there, so basically what im saying is, if it gets worse and I beleive it will, the public will eventually have to rebel. Look at what happened with the British at the start of the US, and during the Civil War. The governments stepped over the line and the public took a stand. If you really look at it, it took the public a good while to actually do something about it too. Now im not saying for anyone to go out and start shooting government officials, what im saying is that there will come a time where once again the public will open their eyes and see that the government is doing them wrong, and it won't be pretty. It's happened over, and over, and over in history.

Originally posted by Dock6
Then there's testosterone. It's what makes men fiesty; willing to take on aggressors and repressors. Knock out the testosterone and men become malleable: peaceable; hesitant; unsure; docile. It's been shown that men can be (and are being?) turned into a form of psuedo-female, via chemicals contained in foods, drinks, food and drink wrappings and containers, etc.

This part got me thinking about the recent ban on andro, a precursor to testosterone used by bodybuilders. I wondered how they could ban a substance that doesn't kill you, because they said younger folks were getting ahold of it. Funny but cigarettes come to mind before andro as far as being something kids get ahold of that's more dangerous...

It's not as if the 'government' that you all perceive would be like fist fighting a big ole' monster. It's just a matter of acknowledging the machine, system or mentality that is controlling the majority of our information and surrounding.
Maybe we can try to make it clear to the men allowing this # to continue that eventually their own children and grandchildren will not be able to avoid getting burned from the same fire they are dancing around and throwing the rest of us to.

It looks like George Bush loves his daughters, but it sounds like he really cares about the soldiers too.
oh well,
who won the Texas race Sunday?
I missed it again this weekend.

Originally posted by godservant

What ever happened to these people from the bill of rights:

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Where is this group? Where'd they go? Hospitality Inn?

There are more then enough of thats for sure the problem being is, Lets say someone make a move, and acts with force against the government, How can they be sure the next guy will be behind them? Im guessing thats whats stopping most..

Heck lets say someone did make a move alone, how many of you would lable them a terrorist, and a criminal for trying to do the very thing we all want, "take our country back" the media would hang them and you would all suport the hanging..

Its either all of us or none of us, and the way its looking, its going to be none of us..

[edit on 10-4-2006 by C0le]

Originally posted by Lanton
Lol TheBorg, how would anyone get anything done if the public had a say in every measure that went through Congress?

I didn't want to go into a lengthy description of the process, but I should have known that it was going to be necessary. So, without further adieu...

To begin, we would need to amend the Constitution to allow for an expansion of powers to the people. These would include the ability to vote on any and all legislation that passes through Congress. Those currently holding office could stay there, and we would continue to vote them in, but their votes wouldn't be so heavy, since every US citizen would have a say. Therefore, the only job left to those on Capitol Hill would be to debate the issues that are passing through, so that the main points could be placed on a website for anyone to access when they get ready to vote.

Another controversial amendment would be the abolition of the Electoral College, due in large part to it's overwhelming control in deciding which candidate gets elected as President of the United States. This is an office of the government that should be decided by the people's votes, and not by the votes of a small number of people. It's not fair to the people that these few get to make the most important decision in the presidential electoral process.

For the voting, it could be arranged in any way that was agreed upon, but it would be necessary for there to be some form of protection to make sure that the voting was fair and untampered with. To do this, I was thinking that they could set up a spot on the Social Security's website that would host the votes, and keep a track record of everyone's past votes, so that they could view them at any time. When anyone votes, the votes that are placed would be marked down for future reference, and any change in the location of the vote they made would be sent to them so that they could view it.

The way people would log in would be by using their social security number, as that's truly the only way to tell if someone's a citizen or not. This way, there's no questions as to who's doing the voting. Of course there would also be a password, and those are also reasonably easy to find out, which is why we could install a system of checks on the server that would ask the user to also put in their Driver's License Number occassionally. That way, there's the element of not knowing what information it will ask, and there's no reason that the Social Security Administration could not have access to this information. They could do a record check to make sure that the numbers matched, proving that you are who you say you are. The voting could be done from home or via cellphone, but either one would have to ask for the above information.

In my opinion, this would be a much better form of voting, since the design is intent upon giving the power back to the people, which is what the founders wanted to begin with. I don't know if it would work, but as far as I'm concerned, there's not much of a better solution, so why not give it a try, right? I hope this answers your question, cause my fingers are getting tired, heh.

TheBorg

P.S. If you need more clarification, please reply with any questions you may have.

I think that's a good idea for a system of voting but i do see two small problems.

Firstly, (and i am speaking for the UK here), i would say that in this country very few peple would vote. The few that would are the ones who probably agree with the government.

I think having a free vote on every law would be a good idea, and if no one voted then the politicians would decide themselves. I know that sounds stupid but that way any law the people feel passionate about will hopefully be voted on and then any other law like say, how many cats people can own (no that isn't real) could be decided by the politicians. This way it shouldn't slow it down to much and you get the important issues sorted by the people.

Of course there is a large problem with all this. If the media controls the voting (which for most people it does) then the public could still be steered into voting a certain way. For example if we were voting on licensing air guns and the media put up loads of programs about horrible air gun injuries and deaths, then many normal people would vote against. Manipulation with media would be very easy on most if not all laws. If someone put in every paper and on every tv and radio station the same story, then most people will accept it must be true. As the story spreads people discuss it, but if they are only hearing one view then they can only come to one conclusion.

People like us on this website are people who question everything, we look into it finding all evidence we can, at least that's what i believe. We are though in the minority, most people trust the media and the government on the big issues. This isn't there fault, it is simply becuase they think there are more important things in life.

Why people fear to take action

I honestly don't think people will take action in a physical manner because they think that no one else will. So it goes round and round, loads of people won't fight back because they think no one else will either. If everyone thinks this then it will never end, they are worried to stand on their own. I have thought this myself quite often, if you stand up on an issue and want to change it then you need people to join you. If you do stand up though then you will no doubt be put on a list somewhere. This isn't paronoia, the UK government put a lot of people on lists after the poll tax riots or the antiwar campaigners. Anything that challenges the governments status quo.

It's simply a mixture of anxiety and fear of standing out. I often laugh when i see on people on tv who claim to be "individuals". The more they seem to be individuals the more they are conforming, because the more individual they are the less likely they are to care about important issues or take action in my opinion. These individuals usually fit into categories, skater, geek, sports enthusiast etc. When people seek to be individuals now they seem to look for one of these boxes rather than finding there own way.

So that's why i think everyone has lost their "fight". Maybe it's stupid but that is how i see it.

[edit on 11-4-2006 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Thanks for the post ImaginaryReality1984. I think that it should be stated that to implement this, it would require all of the people wanting it in the first place. So if the people voted this in, then I'm sure they'd continue to vote on all of the other issues as well. Now, as to the statement you made about people just not voting. The reason people don't vote anymore isn't because they don't care. It's because their vote doesn't matter. I can vote until my fingers bleed right now, but it doesn't change the outcome of the election/vote when those in power just elect who they want to in the first place.

To continue on that notion, I think that with the implementation of my idea, the people would then have a vested interest in seeing things get done, and would take more of an active roll in politics in general. With this resurgence in political opinion, things could be changed, laws that would help the people would be more readily passed, and lobbying could be eliminated. Also, the people would feel like they can make a difference for once, since their opinion really DOES matter after all.

In closing, I think this is one of the better solutions for this problem, and it could make for a much easier existence for everyone. Who knows, you may see an article on this soon in a newspaper. Keep your eyes open!!

If anyone has any questions/comments, please feel free to opine.

TheBorg

Hey i wans't having a go at the idea, in this country though you couldn't get it in. The people in the UK wouldn't try and get that law into existence because well as you said they simply don't care. Everyone here complains about the health system, the schools, the police and crime rate and yet they never do more than complain. Most of them even though they complain about these things still trust the government on big issues like id cards and holding terror suspects for as long as they want without cause. One terror law we have worries me, it means they only have to suspect you without evidence and you're in prison, that means they could take anyone who is simply in the way and stick them in prison.

Anyway because they trust the government on the big issues people just let them do anything they want. As long as they can live their life without things affecting them to much they are happy. Can anyone say maaaaaa.

How do you think you could change it in the US? Could you get the people to implement the law you are on about? Do they have that power?

I nice plan, but why would folks vote? Corporations would still have power.

A dream (since it will never come true), would be -

The 1st of every month, view a gov website to see this months issues.

Vote your heart on those said issues using your SSN and PIN.

At tax time, if you participated in 75% of the votes, receive a tax cut.


That could work, but tis just a dream.

of course the people have the power to alter the law. thats one of the primary components of democracy. problem is that everyone is convinced that one person cant make a difference on their own so they let it slide.

also, you menton that people are always complaining, but they never do anything. i think the fact that they're complaining means that they're READY to do something about it, they just need a leader first. with the right drive and determination, it is completly possible to change laws like that, or even bring in a new set of people into the government. dissent can be an amazingly powerful tool if used correctly. the reason that governments have power is because the people give them power, not only by electing them into offices but also by honoring the laws and acts that they pass. the law will always be on the side of the majority because, as socrates said, morality is defined by the PEOPLE. if even the smallest law was completly disobeyed, it would die in no time.

for instance, using a small and logical law like anti polution legislation which punishes littering with a monetary fine of no more that $500. if everyone just started throwing trash wherever they wanted and noone paid their fines, the gov't would understand that they had nothing they could do about it, but the people who demonstrated in the mean time would most likly get jail sentences between the begining of the protest and the gov'ts consent of the issue.

using the same example, however, lets say that everyone became fed up with the littering laws and instead of thowing garbage everywhere, orginized a protest. of course in reality, you'd never find enough people stupid enough to want to abolish littering; hypotheticly though, and for the sake of the example, say you did find those people. if you had enough people standing together and with the same voice speaking out against the littering laws, threatening boycotts, cashing in old gov't bonds and refusing to buy new ones, pushing for impeachments for failing to represent the people's dislike of fines for littering, the gov't would have absolutly NO CHOICE but to obey their people and get rid of those laws. this is the power of the people in its truest and most devistating form. this is why the gov't bends over on small issues like tax cuts and traffic and things, because they do not want to provoke this kind of legal revolution. the same goes for larger issues, like the patriot act and it's international clones. everyone knows that its wrong for a government to spy on its own people. everyone knows that it's wrong to take people away with no trace of where they've gone and no definition on holding time under a pretense of SUSPISION. the more and more the gov't cracks down the clearer it is becoming that their only interest is keeping us too busy and intimidated to doanything about what they're doing.

as ive said before, this whole war on terror is a loaded gun for revolution. the patriot act is there to keep the fear in us so that we dont go missing because those in power dont want to lose everything they've lied so hard to obtain because of some pesky people who think a democracy means that it's their govenment and not the politicians.

"when the people fear their government, there is tyranny.
when the government fears their people, however, there is liberty"
-Thomas Jefferson

MOst people won't do anything about the current state because:
a. They're not really sure, I mean REALLY sure, the conspiracy theorists aren't part of some UN BS scheme to spread disinfo to keep people polarised and in fear.
B. They're lazy or cowardly and make excuses like "boo hoo, we can't take out our own government even though that's exactly what the constitution says because...'gasp' people might die!!!!" Remember, the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots.
Gee...who said that?
HMMMMMMM....Thomas Jefferson.
If anyone out there thinks that typing your opinions on a keyboard in your mommas basement at three in the morning is going to change the world...you're simply not thinking right.

You're all correct in some things, but one thing's for sure. The way change gets started is by sitting here thinking this stuff up. I've spent months trying to find a simple solution that's both equitable and safe for all of the people, not to mention completely 100% legal.

This plan COULD work, provided the people endorsed it. And I think it could work around the world as well. Once the people realize that they have a true say in what gets done, a meaningful existence, I think they'd take more of an active role in politics in their area. It's those people that are afraid of trying that hurt the cause. But it's not necessarilly because they don't want to see change. It could very well be what has already been mentioned; they're afraid of the response they might get back from the government.

What I'm suggesting is completely legal, doesn't infringe on any rights, nor does it hurt anyone. It's a simple, clear cut solution to an otherwise hopeless situation. I don't see any reason whatsoever that I'd get a negative response to this idea, other than from people that have too much power. The people could then vote as they saw fit, and if they didn't vote, then they can't complain any longer about how the vote didn't go their way. It didn't go their way because they and a bunch of others chose not to vote, that simple. People would be somewhat obligated to vote then because otherwise, they'd have to be left on the side wishing that they'd had a say in things while they were being decided upon.

I think people need change though; something to spice up their meager existence. One can only hope that something like this will happen one day, so that we can have more of a vested interest in our futures. I mean seriously, the only thing that's being proposed is allowing the people to have the say on the issues that involve them. Now why WOULDN'T you want to have a say in something that could potentially involve you? It would be like me telling you that tomorrow, you all owe me $45 a piece for posting here. Guess what would happen? No one would post here. Why do you think that would be? Because they don't want to pay me the money, that's why. Now, that kind of stiff backbone is what's needed here. We need for people to have the gaul to stand up and say something about why we can't decide for ourselves now.

During the founding of this great nation, I can understand why they set things up the way they did. It was because it would have been impossible to make a system where every citizen could vote on every issue going through legislation. Now however, there's no good reason, with the advent of this internet here, long with mass transit and fast-as-light communications, that we can't vote on a simple bill passing through Congress. I think it would only be fair to the people to allow something like this to exist, since it does engender the vision that the founders had for this nation at it's inception.

Anyway, thank you all for listening to this post. I know it was long, but you all have such good ideas that I kind of had to reply to almost everything in one lump sum. Keep the ideas coming.

TheBorg

It's simply a matter of breaking away from all of our many addictions, and establishing a discussion forum that was focused on picking up the pieces while doing whatever could be done to control the spread of infectious diseases.

Then it would be as simple as having a constant open forum of public discussion that pertained to PEOPLE. They could create any form of structure or laws that they wanted.
Which would all be unnecessary if the population was controlled to never exceed the percentage that survived the withdrawal from our addictions.
That would nearly eliminate the potential of something like this happening again, and I feel certain that nearly everybody would appreciate that.
It's not like anything from the system we have created to destroy us would resemble anything we desired or established in the future.

Maybe it all happened for a reason. It's up to us to make it a good one.
It's not as if human rights have ever been obtained by any other creature.
And it would be a matter of who could survive the sudden diet change and not be overcome by their premedicated diseases.

Human rights won't be as easy as demanding them and the system we established handing them over to us. We can't have human rights as long as we get everything we want from mechanical sources.
Even if we created them, they can't produce this for us, we have to do the work ourselves.

The meaning of life as we know it is to see if we can turn chicken crap into chicken salad. It's easy, you just gotta practice your #e eating grin.
Because regardless how easy it would be to understand as the best chance we have, it damn sure wouldn't be easy for anybody to make it through to the 'other side'.

If I explained to you how to get out of the machine it would be like executing myself, and I'm still having a problem with that because if somebody else did it I could go home and save the 35-40 people in my family. Who would starve to nearly to death without me.
I'll try to get through to the people behind the machine again one more time tomorrow. Maybe they'll understand that it is in their best interest also if this was initiated peacefully.

I'm already immortal, just very torn about the potential of leaving everyone I love so much vulnerable and struggling.

I don't know exactly what it is that you're implying by that post, but it kind of worries me. I don't think there will be a need for any kind of rash action. I think that if people are reasonable, and can think at all, they will understand the obvious solution presented, and embrace it.

Perhaps I'm looking too hard for the good in people. Maybe I'm all wet in my assumption that the world would be a better place with this kind of change, but at least I'm propogating a peaceful solution. I think we humans have evolved enough now to step above and beyond attacking others to lord ourselves above them and control them. Control is a thing of the past. It's time to embrace a new future; one free of Feudalism. It's time for the world to grow up.

It's time to be free to think and discuss as much as we want without fears of some higher power smiting us for our 'speaking out of turn'.

TheBorg

That's funny, because all we have the ability to do at this point is cry about the problems and the pain and death it causes and nobody understands the reason.

WE have no voice, just a silent opinion.

WE are allowing ourselves to be destroyed by our own ignorance.

WE are destroying our only source of life because MAN taught us to believe that there is another place to live after we destroy the EARTH.
Simply because it gives man the power to live and act without acknowledging his ONLY responsibility, to survive eternally.

Maybe we can just change the channel and that will bring enough change to salvage our natural existence.

what about all the illegals that stand up for there rights?
wheres the men in black with clubs?

americans rights are vanishing with a blink of the eye, but lets just complain

Why doesn’t anyone get off their couches and do something? Could it be the dumbing down of America Syndrome? Could it be the MSG’s and other mind altering preservatives in the food? Or how about the meat industry injecting all those animals with every chemical known to man that have been proven time and time again to directly affect the brains of humans? Is it any wonder people have become so complacent? Is it any wonder people are sitting on their couches waiting for the other guy to do something about all this? This “planned” stupor compiled with the Television’s ability to hypnotize the masses into drones has made for an easy and “peaceful” takeover of the world at large.


[edit on 14-4-2006 by hiredthug]

it's people like you that keeps this world alive. dont stop godservent cause i'm not. we got to give it all we got because cause the rest of world the aint.

Contensious

I truly get annoyed with people who come on ATS procaliming they 'have the answer'. If you have it then share it, if you won't share it then please feel free to sit in a corner and be quiet. You can sit and laugh as we poor, dumb, simpletons walk aimlessly around trying to sort it out.

The thing that we have to understand is that when the people fear the government that's the time for "we the people" to take action. We are in that scenario now. We need a leader - we need to get organized - we need to have Boston Tea Parties - We need to fight for the rights that are eroding all around us. We need to take a stand -rise up - and fight- spill blood to get our country back. That's what George Washington and are brave Founding Fathers did for us - We are in a nightmare situation that they fought to save us from - and now our Government is big - it's not afraid of us - they can put us into subjection in so many ways. Our pocket books, economy, weapons --If we should rise up and say -it's not about money anymore but about freedom - Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death type of mentality - then we could all strike out and fight to the death!!!

We are going to have a revolution in this country and it's going to be a blood bath. A leader will rise up and unite us - But America is no longer - it's in name only. America is not the America of 50 years ago. We are looking at a bleak socialistic future - if we are still around. I doubt that the revolution will give us America back, however. We'll fall into anarchy - below a 3rd world nation. We're going to go down fast and hard. We'll collapse in racial wars, natural disaster, economic collapse etc.

We are losing it on every level - we are falling like Rome did.......