What is making us NOT fight back?

Contentious:

No, you start a revolution as a means to stop something; not, as your post suggested, as something to do when it IS stopped. "Stop destroying ourselves," ah, that does sound fine. Another fine point was your suggestion that those would-be revolutionaries have no reason behind them. Unfortunately, revolution has become romanticized. It is, I'm sure, more tragic and dark then we have led ourselves to believe.

So what do we stop? It seems that the problems of this nation are rooted in so many issues, and these issues have become so relativistic, that our halls of government are as entangled as the Alexandrian Knot. And like Alexander’s solution to that problem, a modern revolution would solve these entanglements only through total and complete destruction. I fear that there is no other way. Furthermore, due to the sheer size and cultural difference amongst our various states, so many factions would be vying for power that a counter-revolution would be impossible. None of this sounds very appealing to me; and I do not foresee a unifying or revolutionary leader rising amongst us soon. It appears that we simply have to take what we are given.

Not to mention the resources it would take to stand up against the United States military in a revolutionary conflict. Christ. Half of America can’t walk a flight of stairs without getting winded.




[edit on 6-4-2006 by Dr_Faustus]

here is a perfect example I am talking about...

Tell McDonald's to stop trashin' the Amazon

how easy is this?? Click on the link...and boycott Maccas...eat something else.



There are plenty of activist groups out there:

World Can't Wait - Drive out the Bush Regime


and




There is United for Peace and Justice; Code Pink; Not In Our Name and many many others.

Today, I was thinking about this issue. I was also thinking about Kitty Genovese, who was raped and murdered while lots of people watched from windows overhead. Nobody called the police at all.

What is making you not fight back? I think in the final analysis, the answer is peer pressure. The one-in-twenty number is more accurately known as the 80% rule, I.E. 20% of the people in the world actually move and direct the other 80% . This breaks down to four people in twenty, but the point is moot.

Anyway, if you have twenty people in a room, and one person stands up and speaks eloquently, that person is probably going to be killed, in a survival situation. That one person needs to have the support of three more people, to sway a crowd in a stressful situation.

In fact, if it were me who was in a group of twenty, I'd pretend to be dumb. Let the smart people talk first, because truth will float like a feather whereas falseness will sink like lead. I'd try to become like a hick, almost, so as to be seen in the sixtieth percentile of the group. This is how Socrates seemed to conduct his scenarios. He would have the sage play stupid first, and then encourage the "smart" to reel out as much rope as they needed to hang themselves. The method works, in real life.

Really, any smart person in a "Big Brother" situation like you describe, and who is in de facto charge of a bunch of people, is going to place his second in command, as "captain". Picture Kirk allowing Spock to be the Captain, and you're getting what I mean. This can be done to even greater levels, if one is being watched closely, as in a concentration camp or what have you. The people in charge learn to hide, and they are in fact helped to hide, again, by the other three who support the one.

Anyway though, back to my point: Peer pressure. It really does control so much of what humans do. People get conditioned to it through high school, learning their "place" and not to step out of line or suffer humiliation. Of all things, people fear humiliation. Even before death. The point is, when people start shooting rifles (please God, if you're listening, give us thirty more years to fix this mess), it will not be difficult for people to take action. The moment for courage or cunning, will have passed.

People are afraid of being that one person in twenty because if they are wrong, and they don't have what it takes, to lead, then they may in fact become a target for shame and humiliation from the rest of the group. Fear drives a lot of humans. More than 80%, I'd say.

What I am saying here about humans and leadership, etc, is meant to describe people in a stressful situation or under duress. The one-in-twenty idea doesn't apply at an orgy, for example, because who needs to be a hero when everyone's glutting themselves and feeling great?

If you look down the street, and you see SUVs parked in every driveway of your suburban neighborhood, and one morning one of these neighbors starts handing out flyers to give up SUV useage and buy more efficient cars, this neighbor will probably find limited acceptance.


[edit on 6-4-2006 by smallpeeps]

Excellent point! Human beings appear to be very herd-like in nature. Your example of the rape reminds me of Milgrims' experiment. A Yale psychologist, Stanley Milgrim demonstrated that an average individual will willingly assist an authoritative figure to kill, or otherwise harm, another human being; regardless of the individuals’ self-described beliefs. It was a controversial experiment, and the test footage is frightening to watch.

Perhaps Milgrims' theories are related to Stockholm syndrome, and point to another reason for our apparent apathy?



[edit on 6-4-2006 by Dr_Faustus]

[edit on 6-4-2006 by Dr_Faustus]

[edit on 6-4-2006 by Dr_Faustus]

Faustus: Love your work. Post more. A great book on this subject is Robert Cialdini's book, "Influence, The Psychology of Persuasion". Especially the chapter "Scarcity". It describes how humans are really able to be conditioned toward action or inaction, based on the most subtle and practically invisible methods. Must read, IMO.

Yeah, and this example of Kitty Genovese also shows us the cost of even just one homicidal maniac like Genovese's killer:


Wow. Model citizen, eh? So these people who watched Mosely's victimization of Genovese, were probably just average Americans, looking at each other sideways, waiting for even just one person to take action, so that they could be #2 or #3 and therefore lessen their possible humiliation. No doubt also measuring the depths of their souls.

People think they are exercising their free will, but they are limited in that excercise. They will lie to themselves about this truth. Truly, the gentle bump of his fellow man's humiliation, is enough to make even the most vigorous patriot shut up, while still feeling that he has "freedom". Shame is not fun, as any psychotherapist can tell you.

smallpeeps, again I am enlightened. It really makes sense. That explains why I thought I was somewhere in between the 1 and the 19.

This is a good balance that couldn't work any other way - we can't all be the 1 and if were all the 19, we'd be extinct.



There is plenty of evidence of such. Just look at what we've become compared to our grandparents.

If you've got nothing to hide, then what's there to be concerned about?

We're fighting to protect our freedom to walk around at home or abroad without getting blown up, shot or kidnapped and killed by terrorists - and if our governments weren't being seen putting enough measures into place to grant us that protection, then we'd be complaining about that, wouldn't we?

Instead, we're complaining about what, exactly? If you're not a terrorist, or not helping to plan or carry out a terrorist act, or don't know the identities of terrorists or don't know about the planning of a terrorist act, or aren't breaking other domestic or international laws, then why would the security services waste their limited resources and time on spying on you?

The reason why I think some people are getting their panties in a twist over this is because we've all got things to hide, whether it be sexual quirks or past/present drug habits.

Indeed. I noticed your mentioned post right away. Lots of people feel like you do. I was never in the military, but I am certain I was in organized warfare in some previous life, because leading comes easy to me. However, even in those rare occasons where I do lead other people in some project or effort (I do not like power or authority over others, and try to avoid it), I realize that without good lieutenants or sergeants, any general's cause is lost.

The people who aren't one-in-twenty can be just as effective by identifying the one-in-twenty and telling them, "Hey, you're the one in twenty, and I want you to give me an order."

Let us not forget that General Washington had to be asked, and yes even convinced, to take the reins of America. There were many great men (and women) behind him, just as there are always great men and women in the background, helping that person in the spotlight display their particular gift of leadership or oratory.


[edit on 6-4-2006 by smallpeeps]

if you dont believe the government has completely lost its mind....they have come to prove otherwise, and if you believe bush isnt a completely moron, hes determind to show you that your wrong...and he is.

www.latimes.com...

this will go over well with other nations. can we say cold war 2? how about nuclear arms race again? yea we really voted right....wow.

yeah, good planing guys, talk about stuff for a very long time, and eventually do NOTHING. Very freaking smart, now how bout you all meet up with about a thousand people, get weapons, storm the white house while bush is in there, and impeach him yourselves? Now if that doesn't seem like a plan, I don't know what does. Once the people take matters into their own hands, nothing can stop them, especially not a bouch of neocons who want to make money of people's cold dead corpses.
So, are you still going to sit on your asses infront of your computers whinning about how crappy it is out there, and planning legal ways to get your way, that will get illegaly decapitated by neocon men anyways, or will you stand up for your rights and wave your flag up in the air proudly while draging the criminals out of the white house? Be brainwahsed, do it diplomatically, like it ever worked. Pffft, the only thing that you can do with a corrupt government is overthrow it, violently. Nothing is done diplomatically, you have already lost if you think that it is. This is how it starts, first the dictator gets into power democratically, then stays there after putting illegal laws into effect and/or cheating the polls. Eventually he'll start making wars here and there, anything to keep him in power. You honestly think that Bush will step down? And even if he does, another illuminati puppet will take his place. Please, please, your government is turning into a corporate police state. Europe is going down the same path, the European union is yet another way of controling the public.
Well, cudoes to you all, I know that none of you will do anything about it, you will only whine, I guess you all deserve your fate, as for me, I'm going to fight with forks and knives if I have to. Bah, might as well make molotov coctails and home made bombs, knives and forks just don't cut it.

I dont whine, I plan/plot then put it into action but I cannot act alone. Most of the people on here if you havent realized are talkers not doers.
Your idea of stroming the white house is not very wise, within about 2 min you would have about 1000 soldiers and some 50 helis breathing down your neck. Bush is a puppet, not the key figure or the man behind the curtain.

You know whats funny about that site? They dont seem to let people know that the immigrant riot is mainly comprised of ILLEGALS who have no right to be here in the first place. I mean hey, lets let anyone here who wants to be without anyone knowing and then pay for them to live huh? Gotta love socialism.

[edit on 4/6/2006 by ludaChris]

[edit on 4/6/2006 by ludaChris]

LudaChris...

I havent really checked out their agenda but posted it to demostrate that there are pleny of people/groups affiliating to protest issues without guns

those I posted were but a handful...so many activists, it demostrates that people are still fighting Govt, some people havent given up.




[edit on 7-4-2006 by NJE777]

Some of the things in this thread make me feel that the general consensus is that people won't take action against something unless there is either popular support, or a threat to lives and safety.

I had my own humbling experience at age 12 when I was inside a convenience store as a very violent armed robbery broke out. A businessman and an elderly woman protected me from the suspect as she maneuvered around the store attacking things (for lack of a better term...it's a long story).

Looking back on it, I see how in the blink of an eye these total strangers put the welfare of me, the only "kid" in the store, above their own survival. It all happened so fast that I didn't even have time to be afraid, and I thank God that I came out of the experience more bewildered and confused than traumatized.

I wonder sometimes how old people are on ATS. I don't mean that as an insult implicative of maturity, I mean, that, it seems that we're either all young, or we've forgotten the past.

I'm unsettled to realise that the social changes...the MONUMENTAL social changes that our culture went through during the 1960s has all but been forgotten or taken for granted.

I'm also disheartened to realise it only took 40 years to erase it and here we are again, starting all over.

Fair enough, sorry bout that man. I just really cant stand sources that point out half truths, which is why I would normally stay out issues like this because that is what we tend to get. Half truths from propoganda sites.

It is not their fault.

I am nearing 40. I saw it through my parents. Problem is, the younger ones never knew what is was like.

Now, most have grown up in a fairly easy life used to having their needs met and only complaining about a stain on their Reeboks. Used to having someone else do everything, not used to doing anything themselves.

It's all they know.

Most today don't know what is like to have to fight for something because they never had to - it is not familiar.

It is just like we wouldn't go to the jungles of Africa to live in a tribe lnger than a visit. Likewise, a tribal member wouldn't want to become apart of our lifestyle. Its not familiar.

What is familiar, is TV, hanging out, shopping, fashion, borrowing, monthly payments and basically following the crowd.

No one I know personally has ever been to a protest and have no interest in doing so. One, it is not familiar, two, they don't have time and three, they're afraid of being jailed.

Well, I for one am tired of complaining to others who, for the most part, agree with me. I am beginning to act.

At the end of this month, I will most likely be in NY city joining a protest. I am making it a point to write to our public servants at least one a month.

If more did this, voices would be louder.

Problem is, most of you think that it is useless. What a concept - If it is useless, don't do anything and then it becomes quieter. The corrupt leaders like that silence.

Get up - unless of course, you think it is all dandy.

Great post man. I saved it to my computer. Excellent read!

quoting dock6 post on page 1

[edit on 7-4-2006 by mooonhoxe]

like i said its an attack from the big business corporations. they are subjecting young minds to such attitudes. Its really quite simple. get em while they are young, blast them with ideas that they cant do anything against the giant so later on you can get away with just about anything. Simple and effective, leaving us totally screwed. I know this for a fact because im watching it happen everyday.

Boatphone, you said you tried voting and it worked for you, tell me did you see nothing wrong with the election also? The presidential one where they seemed to have a problem with who actually won the White House. Something must have been wrong to create the voting machine deal and question the voting process in this country. What about when a family is just driving down the highway, pulled over for a minor traffic violation and next thing you know all their worldly possesions are sitting along the shoulder of the highway for everyone to see. Officer says sorry for the inconvience, have a good day, nothing illegal found. Im sorry, I see something wrong with this picture, if thats not a loss of freedom then I dont know what is, we know of course the officer most likely used the intimidation factor to search the familys vehicle. But I guess intimidation is okay, so long as the officer gets his way.