Contentious:

I'm glad to hear that you see things in much the same way as most of us here. The thing is, the reason that I've been pushing for the right for every citizen to vote on ALL legislation is because once that's accomplished, we could and would make it a point to look back at other things made into law. Once we started doing that, we'd fix them. It'd be a matter of a few years before we'd have the law back on the side of the people, and not on the side of those in power.

I think that it's still possible to make a change before all is lost, and I also believe that we've not gone too far just yet. The corner is indeed getting narrower and narrower, but it'll take a LOT more than a corner to stop humans from evolving. I'm ever the optimist. I will be until I am pushed into the dirt, and even then I will think I have the upper hand. The reason I say this is because humans are all the same in one way or another; we all like to lord things over others. We all like to have power in some way. Once we get it, we don't like to relenquish it. To do so would be stupid to us, which is why I can see how we got to where we are now.

The main question though is not how did we get here, but how do we get back? We've all got to understand that change WILL occur, whether it happens in our lifetimes or not, it WILL change. People will only tolerate oppression just so long, until they can't tolerate it anymore, and then they'll rise up to qwell that threat. I know this about people, based in large part to my historical education. Humans have always been fighting somewhere against something. We've been trained to do so for thousands of years.

However, I think a philosophical tide has hit some of us. That 'tide' has given some of us the ability to make peace and not war. Who wouldn't want a bloodless conflict? If no one dies, then everyone can rejoice in the change. However, there will be those that have to die to save face, and that's just something we'll have to get over as time goes by. So I guess there may never be a 'bloodless conflict', but I sure hope that one day it can be a reality.

We people have to understand that all we're ever going to do about this is delay it for another short period of time. It may be 200 more years, or 1000 more, but someday, someone else is going to find another loophole to exploit. That's how humans are. Hopefully by then people will have evolved enough that they can see things differently. I sincerely hope that people can overcome the limitations that are put on them by society as a whole, since it's society's expectations in general that make us who we are.

"Everyone is a product of his/her environment." I hear that a lot, and it's true. However much I hate it, it's true. We just need a paradigm shift, and soon. Who knows, maybe we few are the ones that can do this by speaking out while we still have that freedom.

Here's to Evolution!!!

TheBorg

What is making us NOT fight back?

TV, cheeseburgers, beer.

People are foar more interested in complacency since there is a surplus of convienience. Why don't the animals at the zoo revolt? All their rights are denied them--they're caged and not free. They don't give a $#!+, theres all the free food and luxury they ever consume, provided to them.

[edit on 19-4-2006 by metatronic]

It's not rocket science why you are not fighting back.
It's because you are being told there is nothing wrong, nothing to worry about, and you swallow it.
Not because you want to swallow it, but because you must swallow it.

ah people have everything.the power to be.the grass is always new every year just those who see the world and do nothing live within the box. they let other people supply there needs.you are here and the person over there is trying to make you a puppet so they dont have to live.that is where the fightless fight comes from.....

Good post

I think all the 'one in 20' people find it more profitable to make money, than to think for themselves and make a difference.
And the inaction from everyone is probably due to the 'compassion overload' idea, or feeling like you're being fed too many guilt trips and asked to do so much, while struggling to get ahead in your own life. People think 'I'm doing as much as I can' and 'I deserve as much "stuff" as the next guy' and palm responsibility off. There's that, and the having no idea what to do problem.

No one really cares enough is the main problem. And those that DO care can't seem to get anyone to listen to them. If they start to get an audience, then someone comes along and squelches them somehow. That's the way the world works mostly. It's all a matter of making change slowly. It never happens overnight, unless it's violently. Let's all hope it doesn't come to that.

TheBorg

99% of the posts here ramble on about lack of freedoms and how the government; takes away those freedoms and silences those who use their voice to speak up.

Then, when a couple of members (ludachris for one) voice their opinons which differ from the original post, the masses here shut them down by ignoring, squelching, or sidestepping the opposing issue.

As a new member I kind of expected ATS to be a place where people could DIALOGUE about all kinds of interesting issues. Little did I know that (at least in this thread) going against the grain would result in almost a censure.

Most of the posts here speak of a revolution to make things better, that the ideas you have would make a better place and that the government is a one-sided, freedom taking machine. So what is your solution? Censure, ban, dismiss, sidestep, ignore or ridicule the alternate viewpoint.....JUST LIKE YOU CLAIM THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOW.

How's that for irony? You want it to rain skittles and have everyone dancing in the streets free from laws and restraints yet you impose your own ban on others free speech by simply turning your backs on it.

Quite an example of power corrupting...and youre not even in charge yet!

Yes, there have been a few, very few responses to the alternate viewpoints in this thread so my statements are not absolute but the ratio of dismissals far outweigh the replies.

How about making this thread a dialogue and maybe getting to the heart of this thru discussion and not just one-sided soapbox editorials. I for one would like to LEARN something and that cant be done by hearing just one side of an argument.

Thanks for letting ME vent this time.

Springer,

You misunderstood what I was attempting to say. I have no knowledge of Ludachris' violation nor was I implying that ATS (the company or its administrators) was censuring or censoring someones opinion.

There are other types of censuring and my point was that when he brought up a different point of view that wasnt the popular opinion, the other posters just turned their backs on it. Most, not all, didnt give it the time of day, they just ignored his questions and comments all together. That is what IMO, turned this thread not into a dialogue but just a soapbox rant with only one side given any due.

That is what I meant by censure. My post had ZERO to do with ATS as an entity and was directed at the posters in this thread.

Thanks,

SM

One more thing....the link you posted had to do with "recruiting." So I assume that this person attempted to do so.

I do not support that nor was I implying (if Ludachris was recruiting) that recruitment was the point of contention I was defending.

SM

Hopefully I'm in the other 1%. I've tried to put forth a convincing solution that CAN make a difference, provided everyone did their part. I guess that's where I'm stuck. No one would do their own part. Kinda sad when ya think about it.

Maybe though, if I stick this idea out there in newspapers and other media, I could get more people to notice and take some action. Maybe there's hope yet.

Here's to hope...

TheBorg

Wow. It's been about 3 days, and it's STILL quiet in here. I'm wondering, does my plan make sense to anyone besides me? I'm not doubting myself, I'm merely wondering why it is that there doesn't seem to be the kind of support that I had hoped for.

Maybe I just can't describe it in a way that's easily understandable. If someone could give some more feedback, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Thanks,

TheBorg

We're fat, rich, and complacent like the Romans. So long as we have our coloseums (football stadiums, hockey arenas, movie theatres) to channel our competitiveness, our temples of prostitution (nightclubs, strip joints, internet porn) to curb our need for real sensuality and love, our 24-hour convienience stores for late night munchies (after a hoot or two), and pipin' hot pizza delivered to our doors... we have nothing to complain about.

When the economy takes a turn for the worse, and your average teenage daughters are selling their bodies on the street for food and drugs (like in Eastern Europe and more places than can be named here)... when food becomes scarce due to corporate "streamlining" of the bottom line (no vast inventories of food reserves exist in the west)... when inflationary pressures such as higher oil prices eat the savings of the everyman... When dissenters of an unjust administration are quietly (or loudly) dragged off to "detention camps"... When wars are fought for what's left of the world's natural resources - and the wars are fought on our shores - and bullets and bombs are flying across our doorsteps... Then we might do something.

Until then, "eat, drink, and be merry... for tomorrow we die".

-S

To me that's not a good way of thinking. It's the one thing that prevents anyone from learning anything. What hopes do we have as a society if we can't even surpass these small obstacles?

I'm reminded of the old story of the hangman. People hear about him going from town to town, systematically hanging everyone he sees. In each town, the people are so scared of being the next one to get hanged that they lock themselves inside, and stay out of everyone else's affairs.

If we were to apply this analogy to our existence, the only way to curb that fear is by stopping it early. Living a life of solitude, secluded from the rest of the world is not what makes America Unique, or at least I didn't think it was. I always thought that the United in the United States meant that we as a people were united together, with a common goal, and singular purpose. I suppose I could be wrong, and probably am. The winds of change come and go fast, or so I hear.

Maybe someone could enlighten me as to what the truth on the matter is. The truth is after all what we're after here.

TheBorg

Oh the frustration! I have started several threads myself, here and I think a couple in other forums very similar to this thread here. I agree with most of what is said here. But I still don't get it!

There are obviously many people who share the same sentiments, that the government is way overstepping their bounds, while we the people are losing our freedoms daily, etc. etc... And I'm sure that there are plenty more who discuss the same thing in other forums, both on and off line. I could almost bet with quite certainty that the majority of the American public agree that a change is definately in order.

We talk about it, and talk about it, and make excuses as to why nothing is being done.

I'm sick of it! Here I am talking about it again too! I, along with countless others have taken it a step farther, and written to our wonderful (yeah) congress men and women. You know, the ones who we supposedly have elected to represent us and what we want for our country? Well, a lot of good that does when IMO, long ago, they have stopped representing our best interestes in favor or waging war against us. Of course this is just my opinion.

So, anyway, as individuals spread around the country and mainly brought together through the Internet, I don't see what can be done. Talking and griping just isn't cutting it. We have witnessed what has been accomplished by protesting (Cindy Sheehan). Not much at all but a bit of a media circus. Nothing has changed.

I have read that approximately 85% of Americans are unhappy with the current government and would like to see a change. They most likely are. But what I think, just what I think, not what I know to be a fact, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that the only way to change things around here, and really, completely dismantelling and starting over from scratch seems to be the only feasable way of saving this country and it's citizens, is to have the Military take a good look at who's side are they on.

Because the way I see it, the Comander in Chief can only command as long as the military is willing to be commanded. If the military, and enough of them are in agreement, is willing to create some changes, I believe that they are the only ones that are truly capable of making that change a reality.

So, any ideas on that?

To whoever suggested people should go do what Timothy Mcveigh did, unless you were being extremely sarcastic, I think you should have your head examined. Nothing good EVER comes out of killing innocent people and to promote horrendous acts is rediculous.

Diplomacy is the first correct step in any confrontation.


Oh but to answer the original posters question I think it is because our society lives in a dreamworld, is so enturbulated emotionally that they (majority) can't think/see straight, and the majority do not have reality. We are way too into television, computers, cellphones, and luxury that we have lost our backbone. Real men archetypes are replaced for metrosexuals, and real women don't know how to be real women anymore because of cosmopolitan brainwashing and desperate housewives molding.



With WWIII down near road... Is this is it guys?

[edit on 29-4-2006 by jaguarmike]

I think we all have backbones, but I think we just forgot where we put them. We have to make a statement that we're not going to just stay this way. We need to say that we want change, and then tell them what we want. It's a simple matter of stepping up to the plate, and giving the honest truth to those that need to hear it.

TheBorg

Its one thing to say we need change and quite another to see change happen in an organized fashion even if chaos ensues.

As it stands the majorities of people in society are complacent and are content with THEIR lives to the point where they do not wish to add more disruptions. Most people, the majority, are concerned about every day survival over what the country or world is facing.

Even if a group formed I believe it would be crushed with the institutions in place by our presently elected liars and contradictors. We put in power those who want power for its status and the opportunity to rape the economy with the peoples blessing.

Ever wonder why those elected into power abuse their power for themselves or for friends and acquaintances? There are no repercussions or accountability. I've seen a politician during the race make ample promises and gave guidelines on what he would do once in power. So much of what he promised was what the people wanted and elected him for. Once he received the winning vote from the PEOPLE within two months in office he broke fourteen promises. And I don’t mean he forgot them.. He actually owned up that he should not have made those commitments saying they are not feasible to implement. Then why did he make them? Not because he was sincere and actually had a plan but to lie to get his paycheque.

As individuals we are concerned about our way of life so much so we fret of the ideal of some law enforcement agency locking us up for any amount of time. If this happened, our circle of friends and associates would shun us.

Its one thing to hold a day or two of rallies to show ones disgust but how long before those bills start to pile up and we all need to get back to making a living? Those in power have time.. They have their elected time in office before they go and work for those friends/organizations they helped while in power when their term is up.

With so many immigrants being allowed to enter the country the government can easily incorporate laws that benefit the minority. With so many immigrants and illigals the average citizen is so concerned about every day living by competing with others that the energy or the time to think about how all this came to be is not even considered due to the all the activities surrounding a community.

I was pondering if the US keeps allowing illegals into the US which total 10-20 mil right now with an expected 5 mil more by 2015 how do you think the average citizen would feel if the US incorporated marshal law? With so much illegals would it be acceptable to call on marshal law to control and deport people who help the US economy? Would this be grounds for the US government to clamp down on its citizens? Ask yourself this. In the last 20 years how many of the citizens in the US were illegals before they became citizens? And since they are contributing to the US just as the illegals are, with the exception of paying taxes, what makes you think they would rally against a nations that took them in?

Sorry if I rambled on.. I have a slight headache and hope my thoughts came out at least a bit clear as to why citizens will not protest against the government by picketing and why the governments are not concerned.

Oh but they are protesting. Haven't you heard of the President's and Congress' approval ratings? They've almost sank to all-time lows. It's a statement by the people that they are fed up with the way things are being run. The ONLY solution, in my opinion, is to allow the people the right to vote on all Congressional legislation.

Yes, it'll take more of our time to learn about all of the new bills being proposed, but then we would have an actual say. Plus, we could get things done much faster than the current system does because We the People could decide in a matter of a day rather than the month to 3 months that it takes for Congress to hash something out by compromise. Either the law's good as it is, or it's not. No pandering with it, as that's how we got here in the first place.

TheBorg