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What is making us NOT fight back?

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posted on Apr, 16 2006 @ 01:15 PM
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"I feel sorry for you, since you're so dead set on the violence as the only option left to us. That's the way that 'they' want you to think, because 'they' know you'll give up, and then 'they'll' have won. I'm not gonna lay down and die for ANYONE!! I don't give up for no reason. True, it may come to violent blows one day, but for now, we need to exhaust ALL other options before we resort to the throwing of fists. It should be the last option available to us. "


I want you to read this please.
And you tell me something, if there were no starving children, if there were no MOUNTAIN of MUSLIMS murdered by the U.S. military, if there were no uncureable diseases, and if the Mexicans even came over here and volunteered to be your Slaves.
With the situation described in that thread alone,
HOw in the hell are you going to tell me that YOU are NOT going to lay down for ANYONE!
It's like.... "they" right in front of your FACE on t.v,

Pretend it's a bunch doing this to YOU !! Whoever you like to label as the Bad Bad MEN.

Your not gonna lay down and die? Let's see if You can move.
Go CAMP OUT on the Front LAWN !!
You won't even demand ONE answer, and your gonna 'negotiate' an appropriate solution to this WAR. With who ?

GO SEE if 'they' will even TALK to any of YOU.

lissen,
Stop,Drop and ROLL

don't ask questions, if you are going to do something then JUST DO IT !

Quit jack'n around trying to prepare for how you think it might will turn out while WE are still burning. You won't fight back because you are scared to address the MAN or deal with the consequences so just "stay tuned" .
Now that you can possibly see what and who 'they' are actually DOing .

And I apologize for this if 'the people' does not apply to you.

Edit for inflammatory language


[edit on 16-4-2006 by masqua]




posted on Apr, 16 2006 @ 02:21 PM
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Been following the 11 pages of this thread from the beggining and see a lot of good ideas and a lot of what seems to make no sense , although that dosen't mean thats true. The government already has contol, they do what they want with little or no input of meaning from the citizenry, the people just lay back for the most part and allow the powers that be to make the decisions of importance for them, they may want change but lack the initiative or know how to bring about that change.

Somewhere along this thread someone posted about the laws passed thru Congress, and us not being able to have any say in what is passed, great idea, we need to somehow have a major say in what laws are passed or not, but we dont, why is that? We vote and its like our vote means nothing , the voting system surely is not for or of the people and needs to be changed so that we have the faith that our vote means something other than being able to say, I did my duty , I voted.

I think John Kay made a really accurate statement in a song from thirty some years ago, that the people have grown fat and lazy, that a monster was created in the government and now it will not obey. But thats only one reason we are not fighting back, I believe that the government has taken away the ability of the people to fight back thru the government, it is corrupt and no longer functions as a means to the people, so fighting back will have to begin with somehow taking back the government, driving out the monster it has become and once again allow the people to control it the way it was meant to be.

And unfortunately I believe that to do this it will take some kind of rebellion of the people and violence will become neccesary, and I do think that our forefathers knew that violence would be needed just from some of the statements they made in regards to any kind of tyrannical government coming to power, which it has.

I believe the fight from the people needs to begin with education, reaching the people thru the media and waking them up to the dangerous times they are living in and that it is important to do something about it NOW, and somehow this has to take place , though I dont know exactly how due to the corruption of the media. Anyway I think this is where it must start, with the informed and uninformed people of the country, time to take back what is rightfully ours and I believe that it can be done and will be done.

Also I dont believe that all the people have given up the fight, there are some who have been involved from the start and have never given up the fight!

[edit on 16-4-2006 by tracer]



posted on Apr, 16 2006 @ 03:20 PM
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I think I agree, Tracer.

However, the problem is, we need to find something to replace your words "somehow". What is that 'somehow'? That is what we need to figure out.

Violence is a last resort - first, groups must get together to make their numbers high.

Then we must yell and hope they hear us through all means necessary.

Then, well, there is only violence left.

BUT, too many are still sleeping now. Education - you're right. More must learn first. Problem, they have all the info available via the web, but still not finding it.

Before you can have groups, you have to have opened minds.



posted on Apr, 16 2006 @ 03:26 PM
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Keeping It Real

As a moderator, I've been trying to keep a low profile in this thread to avoid disrupting the discussion.

Especially in light of the topic, I don't want to come across as heavy-handed or trying to stifle honest and passionate debate or draw accusations of "The Man" keeping you down.


Let's remember that although the subject is somewhat "revolutionary" in nature, we still need to be respectful of one another and mindful of the terms and conditions.

I am the last person on ATS who should ever give anyone grief for being flamboyant, so don't get me wrong. Fire is good, and there's nothing wrong with being adamant about your beliefs.

The seeds of revolution are within each of us, but before we can make the world a better place, we must make ourselves better people.

In threads like this, as in the world at large, the best way to lead is by example.

So let's set a good example of what society should be like, and pursue it with passion!







Oh, and um... Fight the Power!



posted on Apr, 16 2006 @ 04:36 PM
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Originally posted by Contentious
"I feel sorry for you, since you're so dead set on the violence as the only option left to us. That's the way that 'they' want you to think, because 'they' know you'll give up, and then 'they'll' have won. I'm not gonna lay down and die for ANYONE!! I don't give up for no reason. True, it may come to violent blows one day, but for now, we need to exhaust ALL other options before we resort to the throwing of fists. It should be the last option available to us. "


I want you to read this please.
And you tell me something, if there were no starving children, if there were no MOUNTAIN of MUSLIMS murdered by the U.S. military, if there were no uncureable diseases, and if the Mexicans even came over here and volunteered to be your Slaves.
With the situation described in that thread alone,
HOw in the hell are you going to tell me that YOU are NOT going to lay down for ANYONE!
It's like.... "they" right in front of your FACE on t.v,

Pretend it's a bunch doing this to YOU !! Whoever you like to label as the Bad Bad MEN.

Your not gonna lay down and die? Let's see if You can move.
Go CAMP OUT on the Front LAWN !!
You won't even demand ONE answer, and your gonna 'negotiate' an appropriate solution to this WAR. With who ?

GO SEE if 'they' will even TALK to any of YOU.

lissen,
Stop,Drop and ROLL

don't ask questions, if you are going to do something then JUST DO IT !

Quit jack'n around trying to prepare for how you think it might will turn out while WE are still burning. You won't fight back because you are scared to address the MAN or deal with the consequences so just "stay tuned" .
Now that you can possibly see what and who 'they' are actually DOing .

And I apologize for this if 'the people' does not apply to you.

Edit for inflammatory language


[edit on 16-4-2006 by masqua]


Contentious:

No doubts, this is an evil world. However, I find it troubling that every post you've made has been so emotionally charged and loaded with rhetoric that it's almost funny. I think that maybe you've been into this subject a bit too long, and need a long holiday. If you cannot manage your behaviour during a debate, then I suggest you sit it out.

I also find it interesting that you paint a world picture that is so biased that it's not even real. First off, it's not "MOUNTAINS of MUSLIMS" being killed everyday. If you do ANY looking at all, it's US soldiers getting killed every day. We lose anywhere from 3 to 53 people per day on avg due to the war effort. Now tell me that that's an acceptable solution. You see what kind of response violence gets for you?

As for my post, I was merely pointing out what I thought was another way, and I still think that it might work. But, with people like you so dead set on violence as the only cure to the evil, I fear that I may never see anything happen. This narrow-mindedness and defeatist attitude was what I was talking about in that last post. And I read the post you sent me to, and it's fine that you think that way, but until you can give me some solid facts as to the nature of this "infection", then I suggest you do some more research and stop touting things as facts when you have no evidence to support them. Those aren't facts; they're opinions.

Also, I want to point out that I wasn't saying anything about any war. You made this about a war. I'm merely trying to provide a simple, peaceful solution to try and PREVENT a war. To me, it sounds like you're the one trying to foment discontent within the American ranks to incite war.

Now, back on topic:

I believe that it's possible for a peaceful solution to happen because I think the people's minds are still open enough that reason can get through. The proof of that is that this site exists for us to speak on these things about. To organize anything on this grand a scale is a monumental task, don't get me wrong, but it CAN be done. Whether or not anyone believes that I guess is the big question that needs to be posed. I know of one that doesn't, but I bet there's about 250 million others that do.

Here's to hoping for the best,

TheBorg

[edit on 16-4-2006 by TheBorg]



posted on Apr, 16 2006 @ 04:51 PM
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godservant, yes the information is out there for all to read see and digest, however I think that for the most part people have no interest in it at this time, who knows maybe they wait for something to begin or they just flat out have no interest, I believe its the last, they have no interest, the ol USA will take care of all my needs, so why bother, Im fine just laying here watching the old TV.

I agree that violent overtures should be the last resort, however I dont see the neccesary changes coming about without it, hopefully Im wrong on this part and more than likely the powers that be most likely relish the action of violence as it will at this point in time give them all they need to control any dissension and of course you know the rest as far as dissenters go. However we must reach the point where the people whether they be dissenters or not can no longer go unoticed or ignored, and that most likely will be a major hurdle.

Divide and conquer, something that has long been used by the government in my opinion, is something that needs to change. If we as people can no longer be divided on issues then it will be that much harder to be conquered, and I believe that therein lies a major victory for the people, if we are ever able to rise above that divide and conquer that is such a powerful tool thats used against us. And once again it all comes down to the education of the masses, how many are aware of the divide and conquer strategies that keep us unable to come together united?



posted on Apr, 16 2006 @ 05:52 PM
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I just spoke about divide and conquer, which I believe and have for quite a number of years that the government uses as a tool.

Sometime ago I had occasion to become involved in what I thought was to be a peaceful demonstration, some were protesting the war in VietNam and others of which I was a part were protesting the Regents of UC California at Berkeley, and their takeover of what most know as the Peoples Park in Berkeley CA. As for myself I had no part in creating the Park but used to go there regulary for just what you might call relaxation and enjoyment of something the people had created, a park out of nothing, alot of time and effort put into planting trees and flowers, etc. The only problem was it was owned by UCB or the Regents thereof.

Anyway it came down to a major protest, the Vietnam War and the Peoples Park, some of it is hazy after the years, but what left an impression on me is that when I found myself lined up on the street confonting the National Guard looking down his rifle barrel it was a whole different story. As for the Park issue the Regents said it was their property and the Park had to go, the people said no.

Anyway as the people stood there facing the armed Guard it was mind boggling, what happens next? Anyway I spoke with a Guardsman facing me and he asked me to please disperse and go to the neutral zone along the side of the street. We spoke about things like he was only doing his job and did not wish to hurt any one, and on our side we related to him of how things were being done wrong by the government. In the end though a conversation ensued about divide and conquer, and till this day it has stuck with me, and hopefully him. Looking back now I see how much different a confrontation of today might be, even though that demonstration did turn bad in the end, but there was still some kind of rapport there, and an ability to communicate and understand what was going on. I just dont see that being there with the miltary of this day, wrong though I may be. Bottom line of that conversation with the Guardsman I spoke with, we both had agreed that divide and conquer had some kind of meaning to it.



posted on Apr, 16 2006 @ 07:33 PM
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Sure, why not? Let's start a Nuclear War! Doesn't really matter why, if we can't find a reason why....we'll invent one!


We have wanted to do it for years, all that good enriched uranium and plutonium going to waste...it's shameful.

Let's hit those RED BUTTONS and watch those ICBMS fly, we can nuke those terrorist groups and wipe out entire Nations, doesn't matter whether they are guilty or not, we will rid the World of those evil perpetrators.

But what about the Fallout? The Nuclear Winter ensuing? The children who will be born deformed for generations to come?

What about the fact that crops won't grow, that the soil they grow in will be contaminated?

What about the deaths of billions both in the long and short term?

Oh what the hell, let's do it anyway!


Have a nice day!

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[edit on 16-4-2006 by Pleiadian Recon]



posted on Apr, 16 2006 @ 09:19 PM
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I think the reason were not doing anything is simple.

Weve grown up with every source we have telling us, "Someone else will do it for you".

Now that theres an issue we need to take care of ourselves... we have no idea how to do it... and we again rely on that message we've been given... "Someone else will do it for us."

Its everywhere, You want to place money in another account... you dont have to go to the bank... no, just tell the internet where to put it, and someone will take care of it.

You have a hot meal you want to prepare... just follow those few easy steps and place it in the microwave, it will do it for you.

You want to start a buisness... even that now has easy how to's behind it, so that you dont have to do basically anything.

You want to buy food? Thats done for you too... you dont have to grow ANYTHING, its all readily available a block away at your local grocery store.

Want to educate yourself... dont go to a library, just sit and home and use the internet.

Want to talk to your friends... dont go over there, or even pick up the phone, remain seated and your words will be sent to them over the internet.


THIS is why we are so complacant. Nobody remembers how to do things themselves anymore... even exercise has become a thing to do indoors.

I feel the only people who could really have the lack of laziness to do ANYTHING about this are the lower educated. The farmers, the tradesmen, anyone who isnt in the typical "9-5 go home and eat a frozen dinner and chat on the net until you fall asleep" person.

I fear the only thing we are capable of now is rallying and overseeing the revolution from behind the scenes. We ourselves, have forgotten how to get angry.



posted on Apr, 16 2006 @ 10:08 PM
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johnsky:

I don't believe that's at all the case. I'm a college graduate, and I can tell you that those of us that are educated don't support a violent uprising because some of us think there may be another way. If people would all just stand up and say they've had enough, those in power will listen, because without us, they're nothing. They have to have us to do all the work for them, because no one else will. Without help, they'd have to spend all of their time doing what we're doing, and that would be counter-productive to them.

I think that there is a way to get change, in the form of allowing us all to have a say in all legislation that gets passed through Congress. At least this way, we'd be able to tell the rest of the country how each of us feels on it. It would also re-instill the sense of duty and patriotism that the citizens have seemed to have lost in recent years. We would have the power that the founders wanted us to have. "We the people" would be able to govern at last.

I thank you for having read this post, and anxiously await any and all replies.

TheBorg



posted on Apr, 17 2006 @ 12:37 AM
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Admittedly I may be butting into this discussion a bit but I've learned that after 11 pages threads here can get a bit stale and circular so I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents and see what people think.

I think the main reason people aren't fighting back is that they honestly in their hearts believe they can't, people these days have not only forgotten but cant comprehend the fact that freedom is not given or granted but taken and the moment you start believing that your government will give you freedom you've become a slave. Revolutionary ideas and discussion were a major part of the creation of this fine nation but over the years they've slowly been filtered out. Even the inflamatory statements of founding fathers like Thomas Jefferson have been cleaned up to the point that they contain all the cutting power of a butter knife when they reach children in school.

It's my belief that people aren't fighting back becasue they no longer remember what freedom is, it's been obscured and obfuscated so much that people honestly believe their freedom is their ability to spend the enitre day in the mall and then go online and bash the president. People have no comprehension of the fact that freedom is seperate from government, that true freedom requires no government. That isn't to say that we as humans don't need government and social structure, but it means that only the citizenry can give freedom to the citizenry and that any moment the "peasants" can rise up and deny the government and the only true power the government will have then will be at the end of an M-16. (Which is why we must never never never abolish the right to bear arms, but that's another post)

People won't fight becasue they don't think they need to, they've lost sight of the prinicples this nation was founded on and still believe themselves to be free. I know for a fact that if Jefferson were alive today he'd be inciting revolution with every breath. People are comfortable and have come to rely on their government to protect them from the big bad monster that's lurking outside the windows. Our government can no longe roffer us hope so they offer us protection. The fact of the matter is that the monster is our governmnet, it has managed to destroy every value it pretends to uphold and it is killing the souls of those it was created for.

People no longer understand what statements like "For the people, by the people" mean. They can't wrap their minds around the concept of individual liberty, of inherant natural inalienable rights. I am a man, I was born onto this earth by the will of god (god in a general term), I am no better and no worse than any other man nor should i be treated as such. My inalienable rights are my right to live my life regardless of how others say I should live it, to persue what makes me happy as long as it harms no other, my right to say and think whatever I want, and above all else my right to defend those freedoms from any person or government who wishes to curtail them.

Our citizens have lost the concept of individual freedom and no longer understand that the government and those in power are only in power as long as we allow them to be. To the modern American the Revolution is as real as Moses spiltting the seas.

We need to make people realize that they are masters of their own freedom, that any freedom they deem as "taken away" was not taken but willingly given. We have to make people understand that the govenment is not some mystical omnicient force that none but the White Wizard can defeat. It is nothing more than a system meant to serve us the citizens and not the other way around. If we are forced to serve the government, especially a federal one, then that government has ceased preforming it's intended occupation and must be replaced by one willing and able to uphold the sacred ideals America is founded on. America will still be America even if we must change the government because a nation is made up of it's people, not it's politicians.



posted on Apr, 17 2006 @ 12:53 AM
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However, if you can simply give all citizens equal say in things, freedom would be re-enstated. It's a matter of giving people the confidence back that they CAN be someone, that they CAN make a difference. We need people to know that they are supposed to be the government, not those that we elect. Those we elect serve us, not us them. Once people understand the core concepts, change can then move forward.

One hurdle at a time.

TheBorg



posted on Apr, 17 2006 @ 01:16 AM
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It's just a matter of, when you don't care what is happening to 'them' for a long enough time, then you don't care what happens to YOU.

And obviously you don't .

If it doesn't set a FIRE in you MIND that there are TWO chemicals in your FOOD that have either stolen your minds or your instinctual desire to protect your own bodies, compliments of the WHITE HOUSE,
then they have you all SCREWED!

I just hope somebody comes along that isn't still too scared to ASK questions about the contents of his family's FOOD, who isn't intimidated by the consequences of LOCKING somebody down for this.

"No doubts, this is an evil world. However, I find it troubling that every post you've made has been so emotionally charged and loaded with rhetoric that it's almost funny. I think that maybe you've been into this subject a bit too long, and need a long holiday. If you cannot manage your behaviour during a debate, then I suggest you sit it out. "

Yeah, don't get upset about not having a clue of how to save YOUR ass now. I am not here to debate or negotiate with an approach to obtaining your own human rights with you. Nobody else has even considered the potential or benefit that could come out of doing this.... it's too hard to TRY.

"If you do ANY looking at all, it's US soldiers getting killed every day. We lose anywhere from 3 to 53 people per day on avg due to the war effort. Now tell me that that's an acceptable solution. You see what kind of response violence gets for you? "

They wouldn't still be getting killed if Americans didn't accept a war to continue against an 'enemy' for attacking this nation on 9/11. I don't remember seeing anybody launching sea to land missles on a city of sleeping soldiers, and eventho' everybody knows the war is b.s., you still don't have a problem with the death of the people that the US soldiers went over there to "take down", for attacking you, right? Shame on those people for not bowing down or liking the American/Israel alliance that is doing it dog fashioned to your food.

"but until you can give me some solid facts as to the nature of this "infection", then I suggest you do some more research and stop touting things as facts when you have no evidence to support them "

FACT
If I gave you the security code to the vault inside a bank located in the middle of the desert , you wouldn't get off your ass and go over there to kick the front door down.
How many people need to write an Aspartame is KILLING People book?
www.dorway.com...
Google "aspartame formaldehyde" if you need more info on this.
And the most important information on this page is in the dates of the last time anybody even tried to get this drug out of the milk. This one has a "freak amino acid" in it and apparently science is interested in finding out the long term effects of THAT on whoever they want because nobody can label the chemical as 'toxic' eventho' it's been banned all the way around the world. "They" said it does your body good now, and maybe another freak amino acid American will be joining the rest of the gang in the White House very soon also.

"If people would all just stand up and say they've had enough, those in power will listen, because without us, they're nothing"

If if were a skiff we could all go for a of boatride. The people who lost loved one in 9/11 that cannot accept what they have been told by this government, has not organized a protest on the front lawn to demand JUSTICE by someone in the administration. Nobody has even ACKNOWLEDGED OUR EXISTENCE concerning the video evidence and the first hand claims from the fire-fighters that heard "synchronized explosions" as the towers came down.
Hopefully something more 'unsettling' doesn't have to happen to your own people before 'the people' feel a strong enough URGE for some truth.
George Bush Jr. and Sr. are about as significant as J.R. Ewing to your future the rest of the way from here on out. If you think anything that man will speak about in public will help to make things "clearer" in this country,,,
Cheech & Chong are on the way to rescue you now.

" You made this about a war. I'm merely trying to provide a simple, peaceful solution to try and PREVENT a war. To me, it sounds like you're the one trying to foment discontent within the American ranks to incite war. "

I sent a direct threatening letter to the D.O.D. titled "AMERICANS ARE UNDER ATTACK!!" and everything else the threat included.

You want to prevent a WAR because you won't acknowledge who has your ass SCREWED to the wall right NOW. For some reason none of this information bothers you people, maybe it's because the influence from the source of the poisoning is so tremendous so I'm trying to remain polite about it.
Would it help if I reached through this monitor wrapped my hand around your throat pulled you face right up against this monitor and Growled
"ARE YOU AT WAR NOW?"

Now, back on topic:

You are NOT fighting back because it's still not within your ability to consider EVERY ONE , IF by some miracle you were able to make a change to how the USDA is refusing a meatpacker his rights to test for MAD-COW !!!

IF this administration was Questioned your fantasy of experiencing a 'peaceful solution' would haunt you all the way into the ground. IF they told the truth about ANY aspect of the USG that has FAILED to protect our food, bodies, minds, environment, MORALS, or future it might sound better if for some reason you expect the TRUTH to come out of the horses mouth.

It is going to hurt like hell and just get worse while you procrastinate.
THAT is what making a 'sacrifice' is all about.
The plans that you are thinking and sharing here do not apply to Saving Your Own LIVES ! THIS is how you LOST them.
If you insist on doing something "peacefully", I would get others involved in the "Sec of Defense launched a FORMALDEHYDE attack on YOUR minds" issue. It was effective, you can't move on this.

Unless you need more facts to keep you sedated in that PEACE filled state of mind.
I understand there is a line that can't be crossed where you could actually discuss who what when or where to FIGHT for your LIFE online. So there really is nothing else to discuss in this thread. Because if you don't see a reason to fight or an enemy to escape from, you are NOT fighting because you are GLUEd to a computer looking for peacefull discussions to share those great ideas with others who are also GLUEd to a system that likes SCREWING with your FOOD.

"America will still be America even if we must change the government because a nation is made up of it's people, not it's politicians. "

If nobody finds a group of PEOPLE to demand some ANSWERS, it will be called "UP#CreekWithoutAPaddle" by everybody in the world very very soon.

DEMAND Answers . Not a fight.



posted on Apr, 17 2006 @ 02:48 AM
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I fail to understand where you come off thinking that the only way to solve the situation is through the use of violence and force.


Originally posted by Contentious
It's just a matter of, when you don't care what is happening to 'them' for a long enough time, then you don't care what happens to YOU.

And obviously you don't .


WRONG!! First off, I don't quite understand just what you're trying to say here, but it seems like you're suggesting that I don't care about myself. Well I do. And if some study 30 years ago hasn't killed me yet, it's not going to, so knock this crap off, and get back on topic!!



If it doesn't set a FIRE in you MIND that there are TWO chemicals in your FOOD that have either stolen your minds or your instinctual desire to protect your own bodies, compliments of the WHITE HOUSE,
then they have you all SCREWED!

I just hope somebody comes along that isn't still too scared to ASK questions about the contents of his family's FOOD, who isn't intimidated by the consequences of LOCKING somebody down for this.


Again, read my above statement. You're obviously infatuated with this notion that somehow, the government has poisoned us using these low level doses of chemicals. Umm, I don't know if you know this, but the air you breathe is much more harmful to you than anything mentioned in that article is. You have a better chance of dying in a plane crash caused by a lighting strike caused by a hijacker than by the stuff posted in this article you use as evidence.


Originally posted by Contentious, while Quoting TheBorg
"No doubts, this is an evil world. However, I find it troubling that every post you've made has been so emotionally charged and loaded with rhetoric that it's almost funny. I think that maybe you've been into this subject a bit too long, and need a long holiday. If you cannot manage your behaviour during a debate, then I suggest you sit it out. "

Yeah, don't get upset about not having a clue of how to save YOUR ass now. I am not here to debate or negotiate with an approach to obtaining your own human rights with you. Nobody else has even considered the potential or benefit that could come out of doing this.... it's too hard to TRY.


Then I suggest you step out of this debate, since that's what this debate is about. People have become complacent because of Commercialism, and the lack of a say in what gets done politically. Not by some chemical concoction created by the government. Even if what you purported were true, we would have more evidence of this by now. And we don't. So enough is enough. Either calm yourself down, or I'll ask a MOD to step in. This is supposed to be a thread debating issues, not fighting over them. Contain yourself, or SIT DOWN!!


Originally posted by TheBorg, but quoted by Contentious
"If you do ANY looking at all, it's US soldiers getting killed every day. We lose anywhere from 3 to 53 people per day on avg due to the war effort. Now tell me that that's an acceptable solution. You see what kind of response violence gets for you? "

They wouldn't still be getting killed if Americans didn't accept a war to continue against an 'enemy' for attacking this nation on 9/11. I don't remember seeing anybody launching sea to land missles on a city of sleeping soldiers, and eventho' everybody knows the war is b.s., you still don't have a problem with the death of the people that the US soldiers went over there to "take down", for attacking you, right? Shame on those people for not bowing down or liking the American/Israel alliance that is doing it dog fashioned to your food.


There's no doubt about it, I don't like the Iraq war anymore than anyone else in this country does, but that's got nothing to do with this debate either. Just to entertain the idea though, we attacked Afghanistan because they housed members of a terrorist organization that struck us and killed 3000 people from ALL walks of life. We responded in kind, and no, for your information, I don't sleep any worse for it. That's what one gets for attacking a sleeping grizzly bear. But as for the Iraqi War, no I don't think we should be there. In that at least, we're in agreement.



Originally posted by TheBorg, but quoted by Contentious
"but until you can give me some solid facts as to the nature of this "infection", then I suggest you do some more research and stop touting things as facts when you have no evidence to support them "

FACT
If I gave you the security code to the vault inside a bank located in the middle of the desert , you wouldn't get off your ass and go over there to kick the front door down.
How many people need to write an Aspartame is KILLING People book?
www.dorway.com...
Google "aspartame formaldehyde" if you need more info on this.
And the most important information on this page is in the dates of the last time anybody even tried to get this drug out of the milk. This one has a "freak amino acid" in it and apparently science is interested in finding out the long term effects of THAT on whoever they want because nobody can label the chemical as 'toxic' eventho' it's been banned all the way around the world. "They" said it does your body good now, and maybe another freak amino acid American will be joining the rest of the gang in the White House very soon also.


Ok, as I stated earlier, if that was going to kill me, it would have already. I hope you'll stop trying to derail this debate by using these diversionary tactics. It almost makes me think you were sent here intentionally to start a flame war, in the hopes of interfering with the constructive debate. I won't tolerate that, and neither should anyone else.


Originally posted by TheBorg, but quoted by Contentious
"If people would all just stand up and say they've had enough, those in power will listen, because without us, they're nothing"

If if were a skiff we could all go for a of boatride. The people who lost loved one in 9/11 that cannot accept what they have been told by this government, has not organized a protest on the front lawn to demand JUSTICE by someone in the administration. Nobody has even ACKNOWLEDGED OUR EXISTENCE concerning the video evidence and the first hand claims from the fire-fighters that heard "synchronized explosions" as the towers came down.
Hopefully something more 'unsettling' doesn't have to happen to your own people before 'the people' feel a strong enough URGE for some truth.
George Bush Jr. and Sr. are about as significant as J.R. Ewing to your future the rest of the way from here on out. If you think anything that man will speak about in public will help to make things "clearer" in this country,,,
Cheech & Chong are on the way to rescue you now.


Wow, another thing we agree on. Starting to improve.


Originally posted by TheBorg, but quoted by Contentious
" You made this about a war. I'm merely trying to provide a simple, peaceful solution to try and PREVENT a war. To me, it sounds like you're the one trying to foment discontent within the American ranks to incite war. "

I sent a direct threatening letter to the D.O.D. titled "AMERICANS ARE UNDER ATTACK!!" and everything else the threat included.

You want to prevent a WAR because you won't acknowledge who has your ass SCREWED to the wall right NOW. For some reason none of this information bothers you people, maybe it's because the influence from the source of the poisoning is so tremendous so I'm trying to remain polite about it.
Would it help if I reached through this monitor wrapped my hand around your throat pulled you face right up against this monitor and Growled
"ARE YOU AT WAR NOW?"


There you go again with those brash threats. If I didn't know any better, I'd suspect you of being a plant. I really hope, for your sake that you didn't send any threats to the DOD. That would be incredibly stupid.

And listen here, I'm trying to prevent a war because I don't want people to die. And so long as you're going to verbally assault me, and threaten me with violence, I might want to reassure you that if you do this again, I will refer a MOD to you. Understood?


Originally posted by Contentious
Now, back on topic:

You are NOT fighting back because it's still not within your ability to consider EVERY ONE , IF by some miracle you were able to make a change to how the USDA is refusing a meatpacker his rights to test for MAD-COW !!!

IF this administration was Questioned your fantasy of experiencing a 'peaceful solution' would haunt you all the way into the ground. IF they told the truth about ANY aspect of the USG that has FAILED to protect our food, bodies, minds, environment, MORALS, or future it might sound better if for some reason you expect the TRUTH to come out of the horses mouth.

It is going to hurt like hell and just get worse while you procrastinate.
THAT is what making a 'sacrifice' is all about.
The plans that you are thinking and sharing here do not apply to Saving Your Own LIVES ! THIS is how you LOST them.
If you insist on doing something "peacefully", I would get others involved in the "Sec of Defense launched a FORMALDEHYDE attack on YOUR minds" issue. It was effective, you can't move on this.


When did that ever work, pray tell? I don't recall ANY successful use of that tactic. If there's not one, then again, stay on topic!!



Originally posted by Contentious
Unless you need more facts to keep you sedated in that PEACE filled state of mind.
I understand there is a line that can't be crossed where you could actually discuss who what when or where to FIGHT for your LIFE online. So there really is nothing else to discuss in this thread. Because if you don't see a reason to fight or an enemy to escape from, you are NOT fighting because you are GLUEd to a computer looking for peacefull discussions to share those great ideas with others who are also GLUEd to a system that likes SCREWING with your FOOD.


I'll speak about what I want, where I want, when I want, and no one will tell me any different. Got it??


Originally posted by Contentious
"America will still be America even if we must change the government because a nation is made up of it's people, not it's politicians. "

If nobody finds a group of PEOPLE to demand some ANSWERS, it will be called "UP#CreekWithoutAPaddle" by everybody in the world very very soon.

DEMAND Answers . Not a fight.


Here you confuse me. You seem to back up on everything you've been saying for the WHOLE post. You say to demand answers and not a fight? Did I miss something here? I fail to see how you went from being all "git yer gun, we're goin people huntin'" to 'Not a fight.' That's utterly amazing to me.

I'm not sure you understand the point to this discussion. This discussion was intended to find out what might be causing all of us to be complacent. Now, the chemical thing had me suspicious for a little bit, but upon seeing that the studies were done almost 30 years ago, I'm quite convinced that nothing's wrong. Find something more recently dated, and you'll have my attention.

Now, for a few pointers on proper debating etiquette.

Don't get angry so quickly. That gives your argument a bad light, and no one takes you seriously.

Spelling and grammar. Sometimes, spelling errors occur, but that's why you should look them over again before posting.

Bad language. This will get you banned in a hurry. Believe me, I was banned once.

Treat others with respect. We're all like you in one way or another, otherwise we wouldn't be here. Stop treating us like subordinates. We're your equals. As soon as you think otherwise, you're no better than the enemy with which we fight.

And lastly, Deny Ignorance. We're all human, and we all make mistakes. Just don't be ignorant about the thoughts you have. If you have something worthwhile to contribute, then contribute by all means, but do so in a proper, concise manner, unlike this behemoth of a post.

May your journeys here on ATS be more fruitful from here on out. I wish you well Contentious.

TheBorg

P.S. MODs, sorry for the lengthy reply. I had to break it all up to make my points clear and as concise as possible. Sorry it took up so much room. I wish there was a way to paraphrase quotes.



posted on Apr, 17 2006 @ 06:12 AM
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Originally posted by godservant

US, Canada, Brittain, Austrailia and other countries - rights and freedoms are being taken away at a steady pace.


Hi.. Godservant..

Its because the governments, are so intent in looking good to the Political Brigade, that they bend over backwards to please the minorities. They are afraid of the real issues, and if they did fight back the EU would jump on the governments with force..

MIKE


fixed quote

[edit on 17-4-2006 by masqua]



posted on Apr, 17 2006 @ 01:44 PM
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"I fail to understand where you come off thinking that the only way to solve the situation is through the use of violence and force. ""

Because you are starting to understand 'this' would be the fight of and for you LIFE. If getting the answers to the questions WE have concerning the influence MAD-Science has played in ALL of our lives, involves a fight.... then you might have a chance of defending yourselves from those who would 'aggressively' defend the TRUTH that 'they' are intentionally HITTING US with ANY 'thing' they choose!

"WRONG!! First off, I don't quite understand just what you're trying to say here, but it seems like you're suggesting that I don't care about myself. Well I do. And if some study 30 years ago hasn't killed me yet, it's not going to, so knock this crap off, and get back on topic!! "

Would you like to keep discussing how you could 'fight' for something else, while this source of "superpower" science has already done WHO KNOWS what to you already?
I am amazed that this woman is still alive!


""Dr Suzanne Wuerthele, US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) toxicologist, "This technology is being promoted, in the face of concerns by respectable scientists and in the face of data to the contrary, by the very agencies which are supposed to be protecting human health and the environment. The bottom line in my view is that we are confronted with the most powerful technology the world has ever known, and it is being rapidly deployed with almost no thought whatsoever to its consequences."- ""


The WHITE HOUSE


"EPA carries out a significant portion of its mission through the Operating Program, which includes its core responsibilities for regulatory development, enforcement, research, and program grants to states."
"The program guarantees results, by eliminating costly regulation, litigation, inspection, and enforcement actions. As a result, industry compliance has been nearly 100 percent."


The EPA is "officially" worthless.

NIEHS

Children who live in polluted communities are five times more likely to have clinically low lung function -less than 80 percent of the lung function expected for their age.


"You have a better chance of dying in a plane crash caused by a lighting strike caused by a hijacker than by the stuff posted in this article you use as evidence. "

NIEHS

"Among U.S. residents, 1 in 2 men and 1 in 3 women will develop cancer at some point in their lifetimes. Research shows that environmental factors trigger diseases like cancer, especially when someone has a family history,"

WE are all ONE Family.


The FDA has failed to investigate the effects of long-term feeding of IGF- 1 and rBGH-milk on growth, or on more sensitive sub-cellular effects, in infant rats or infants of any other species.


"They" are experimenting on YOU.


**"We are conducting a vast toxicological experiment, and we are using our children as the experimental animals." -- Dr. Philip Landrigan, Chairman, Preventive Medicine, Mt. Sinai School of Medicine

**"With chemicals, it's shoot first and ask questions later." -- Al Meyerhoff, former attorney for the Natural Resources Defense Council



In 1967", Monsanto enters into a joint venture with IG_Farben", the key supplier of poison gas to the Nazi racial extermination program.-



“A Monsanto official told the New York Times that the corporation should not have to take responsibility for the safety of its food products. "Monsanto should not have to vouchsafe the safety of biotech food," said Phil Angell, Monsanto's director of corporate communications.
"Our interest is in selling as much of it as possible. Assuring its safety is the FDA's job."



The Codex Alimentarius Commission, the U.N. Food Safety Agency representing 101 nations worldwide, has ruled unanimously in favor of the 1993 European moratorium on Monsanto's genetically engineered hormonal milk (rBGH).


The U.S. Food and DRUG Administrators


The FDA says it is now in a listening mode. If its ears are truly opened, then its conscience should have been touched. What is at stake is the safety of the nation's and ultimately the world's food supply.
What is troubling is that the government tries to deny that any genetically engineered food has caused harm. It is just running away from reality.
Labeling and long-term safety testing are only two steps in that process and we should not go another day without them. It is unfair, unsafe and unwise. As the evidence continues to come out, it is no longer rhetorical to ask what the industry is trying to hide by not labeling these foods, and why the insurance companies will not touch bioengineered food.
As mentioned on the earlier panel, rBGH has been rejected in every major industrialized nation. In fact, a recent report by Health Canada indicates that the FDA misreported the findings of Monsanto's ninety-day rat feeding study. Even the heavily corporate-influenced Kodak's alimentary commission has refused to certify the safety of rBGH despite heavy pressure from the United States. Yet, we are forced to eat and drink products from cows injected with rBGH in secret because of prohibitive labeling requirements written for the FDA by a Monsanto employee.
There are several actions that need to be taken that are out of the FDA's hands, including ratification of the conventional and biological diversity for which it is shameful that the United States has not signed.
The greatest controversy in FDA history was the approval process for Monsanto's genetically engineered bovine growth hormone. We shouldn't be here today. We should not be in this room, and I shouldn't be here because in 1994 Congress had a Bill that was going to require mandatory labeling of all foods that were influenced by genetic engineering.

When Monsanto made their genetically engineered bovine growth hormone, they noticed that laboratory animals were getting cancer, and they noticed that cows were getting mastitis, ulcers on their udders; they were putting more pus and bacteria into the milk. In 1958 Robert Delaney, a Congressman from New York, put in a Delaney Amendment. It was named after him. The Delaney Amendment stated that if a food additive caused cancer it was not to be approved -- pretty good law, right?
Well, Monsanto got their attorney, Michael Taylor from the firm of King and Spaulding -- by the way, when they started in 1979 they groomed their attorney now in the Supreme Court, Clarence Thomas, the same law firm -- Monsanto's attorney, Michael Taylor wrote and minimized the Delaney Amendment, an interpretation of the Delaney Amendment which became the new protocol, the new standard operating procedure at FDA. They minimized cancer. Michael Taylor was hired by the Food and Drug Administration and became the second most powerful man there, Monsanto's attorney. He wrote the standard operating procedures. In other words, we see cancer; ignore it.
Margaret Miller, Susan Sechen, Monsanto's scientists, were hired by the FDA to review Monsanto's own research. Margaret Miller knew cows were getting mastitis. The first week at the FDA, December 3, 1989, she was given broad power -- and here is an effect of genetic engineering nobody has considered -- she knew cows were getting sick from the genetically engineered hormone; she changed the amount of antibiotics that farmers could have in their milk. She increased it by 100 times.
Jerome Moore's paper said “if there is a middle of the chain protein change there could be Alzheimer's, or sickle cell anemia, or diabetes. Monsanto, four months after the hormone was approved, one of their scientists, Bernard Violand, published, in the July 3, 1994 issue of the journal Protein Science evidence that Monsanto made a mistake. Oops! Monsanto created a freak amino acid!
It seems to me that we are embarking on a dangerous path from which we cannot return and this government is making a grave error in judgment by not exercising more prudence.
Given the history of repeated assurances by the government and corporations and a long list of technologies such as pesticides, antibiotics or RbGH that were all declared safe based on research and then to find out, a few years later, that crucial evidence was not evaluated properly or even suppressed and now are shown to be unsafe.
I have come to have little or no confidence in the government's ability to exercise sound judgment in these matters on its own. The bottom line is that we don't need genetic engineering. This path primarily benefits those who are reaping the profits.
I do not appreciate being treated as a guinea pig. I believe genetic engineering violates nature and I am deeply concerned that we have no way of cleaning up any unintended environmental catastrophes.


"Even if what you purported were true, we would have more evidence of this by now. And we don't. So enough is enough. Either calm yourself down, or I'll ask a MOD to step in. This is supposed to be a thread debating issues, not fighting over them. Contain yourself, or SIT DOWN!! "

You wanna fight with ME ?
This is supposed to be a thread of how to OVERCOME your fears.

"There you go again with those brash threats. If I didn't know any better, I'd suspect you of being a plant. I really hope, for your sake that you didn't send any threats to the DOD. That would be incredibly stupid. "

I'm stupid ? What are they going to do, sit there and LOOK at me?
I'm not one of the 'suspects', but your getting close with those PLANT suspicions. I really hope for your sake, that you won't be scared to acknowledge the source that is protecting the THINGS that are 'possibly' working only to destroy US.

What else could I possibly do, FOR you ?



posted on Apr, 17 2006 @ 04:00 PM
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Zenda Avesta, c. 3000 BC

There are three things which build and maintain civilization throughout time: pure air, pure water, and pure food. And as an eternal truth I say unto you, that there are three things which bring the end of civilization, even the mightiest that have ever been and shall ever be, from the beginningless beginning to the endless end of all time: impure air, impure water, and impure food.


I consider this true and inevitable, it's all too clear that the path our civilastion chose is one that leads straight into oblivion, (read my sig link on native diets and you'll understand) and imho anyone with half a brain could see that if only people's memories weren't limited to a lifetime due to propaganda and omission as well as outright distorted history.

Most certainly, since this is about the NWO, basically, the guys who chose this path must have known that, their carefully planned impirial scheme requires that kind of expertise, and they were not hesitant or undecided when it came to using their knowledge to target victims. you may not agree with me on this, but let's just say that epidemics among natives, especially in NA were just too convenient and that widespread crop failure as seen in the Irish potato famine indicates contaminated seed material, a view which is imho augmented by the fact that suddenly, everyone charged outragous prices for f-ex. grain, so no-one could afford, which doesn't make sense from a standpoint of greed, but certainly if you want to KILL.

If these elitists are as powerful and influential as they've displayed to be, then it's only logical to at least contemplate if Earth's current problems are the deliberate result of long term planning, with all that entails.

Motivation is the real question here, and only Motivation: instead of grasping for straws, we could, without much of a doubt directly target their power base and lifeline in the same way they target ours.



posted on Apr, 17 2006 @ 07:28 PM
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Originally posted by Long Lance
If these elitists are as powerful and influential as they've displayed to be, then it's only logical to at least contemplate if Earth's current problems are the deliberate result of long term planning, with all that entails.


I think the scientist who consider themselves to be among the 'smartest' have very few things they fear that they don't have the power to manipulate. One of them is a person of 'ignorance' that would try to save so many people even after they understood how many contaminants their minds have been exposed to. I think that's why they just assumed they could get away with doing anything they wanted with people, regardless of the consequences... because they knew the popular concept of "God" couldn't possibly exist.

I started a thread last week trying to figure out what they could have possibly wanted out of all the diseases and war they have intentionally motivated. If anybody's interested in trying to prevent their next experiment from being launched into the system, your opinion is needed.



posted on Apr, 17 2006 @ 07:48 PM
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Seems to me like the governments use of divide and conquer is working well with the two on this thread who cant seem to come to some kind of semblance of understanding instead of fighting and challengeing each other. Come on people thats just what the government wants to see, we the people infighting and blinded to the things they want to lay down on us. And they have been having their way with that divide and conquer for so long, with whatever means they found that work.. Forgive me if Im wrong and keep right on fighting with each other, thats two less people the powers that be have to worry about becoming united as one.

[edit on 17-4-2006 by tracer]



posted on Apr, 18 2006 @ 02:45 AM
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Originally posted by tracer
Seems to me like the governments use of divide and conquer is working well with the two on this thread who cant seem to come to some kind of semblance of understanding instead of fighting and challengeing each other. Come on people thats just what the government wants to see, we the people infighting and blinded to the things they want to lay down on us. And they have been having their way with that divide and conquer for so long, with whatever means they found that work.. Forgive me if Im wrong and keep right on fighting with each other, thats two less people the powers that be have to worry about becoming united as one.

[edit on 17-4-2006 by tracer]


Well, I have to agree that Contentious and I haven't appeared to be the best of buddies lately, but I can assure you that I don't think of him/her as an enemy. We are all here for the same thing, to figure out the best way to begin to make change. We just disagree on what should be the main focus.

To Contentious, I must say that I find the information you've provided in that post directed at me to be a lot more informative and less inflammatory than the past several. Thank you. You've made a valid point that I suppose does need to be considered. But my next question is what do you intend to do about it? There has to be something that could help to instigate change, aside from a gun being stuck in the faces of those in power.

I just don't see how violence can be justified as a means to get peace. It's pointless, since it'll always make someone else mad when someone else dies. Every person killed has a family, and those family members will be angry enough to kill in vengence for the death of their loved one. Where does it end? I see that being a last resort kind of thing. If we people were forced into a corner which we couldn't get out of without violence, then yes, violence is necessary. I just hope that we can curtail that.

If I've appeared to be angry, I was only responding to the verbal assault I was recieving due to my thoughts on the pertinent issue. I'm sorry if what I've said has been misconstrued.

However, I still think that my plan is the next logical step in the process. This new informaton could certainly be useful, and I'd support you making it a point to bring more of this to light Contentious. Maybe sending this to a news agency to have them do some digging on it could spark some form of change. It's worth a shot at least. Beats getting all angry and revolutionary just yet.

Have a pleasant evening,

TheBorg






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