Originally posted by shaunybaby
In the Garden of Eden there was a talking snake.

I'd like to see that Mr. I wrote a book about G.O.D and not God, scientifically prove a talking snake.

not just a talking snake
a talking snake that didn't crawl on it's belly
well, maybe it did crawl, and god let it off easily with the whole "you're cursed to crawl on your belly now" punishment

A talking snake is something that is in the Christian bible. Schwartz isn't trying to prove anything from any bible. He is not advocating any religion whatsoever. He is just attempting to prove that something other than chance or randomness might be responsible for our existence.

Since I believe that the point of the thread was to discuss possible scientific evidence for creationism, not scientific evidence for talking snakes, I thought it might be worthwhile to mention Schwartz's book in case someone wanted to read it.

While Schwartz does not attempt to dispel the theory of evolution (as a matter of fact he defends it - he is a scientist after all), he is exploring scientific proof concerning whether or not mere chance could have put the universe in place. For someone who might want to entertain such notions, Schwartz's work is interesting.

wellwhatnow, then what created that thing that created the creator?
honestly, it creates unnecassary problems to have a creator/designer
especially in the philosophical realm

I don't have the answers. I was just pointing out some interesting reading. However, if science can find some answers, should we ignore them because the answers might complicate things?

Originally posted by wellwhatnow
I don't have the answers. I was just pointing out some interesting reading. However, if science can find some answers, should we ignore them because the answers might complicate things?

yes, we should
because they might not be the ONLY answer
and, honestly, there isn't any science pointing out the existence of a creator/divine being
normally, when you have multiple answer, you go with the one that is the most simple

it's called occum's razor

I understand the principle of Ockham's Razor.

I was just pointing out some interesting reading for those who are interested. Fortunately we all have different opinions, and that is vital in problem solving.

The principle I like to use says that we should find answers, even if we don't like them. We can only choose the simplest answer if we have more than one answer to begin with.

Clearly you wouldn't want to read Schwartz's work, and that is fine with me. If no one in the world reads his work, it wouldn't matter to me. I am currently snowed in and have nothing to do so it was nice to read and entertain some new thoughts. I think that entertaining new ideas keeps my brain a bit sharper - and it sure beats shoveling snow.

I used to play a rather nerdy game a few years back with some freinds where we take a completely mundane situation (such as falling over) and explain why its happened e.g.

I tripped over
why
my laces were untied
why
i didn't tie them tilght enough
why
my strength wasn't enough to keep the laces together in a knot
why
the friction + inertia wasn't large enough to counteract the motion of walking
why

and so it goes on... until you reach a point you cant explain where my friend thought the answer was god.... but if you did this test 3 hundred years back then they wouldn't be able to speak of inertia or friction and would have said god.. as didn't fully understand what causes the laces to untie... to say god created the universe is the same situation..

as our understanding of science increases we'll be able to answer more "whys" until the answer "God" becomes null and void. Tis but a matter of time

Originally posted by Veenous
as our understanding of science increases we'll be able to answer more "whys" until the answer "God" becomes null and void. Tis but a matter of time

wow, my dad (phd physics) taught me this game when i was younger
and you're right

what caused disease 450 years ago?
ill humors
or evil spirits
whatever

now we know that disease is caused by bacteria and viruses

if evolution exists why would there be religion why would someone fake god?

Originally posted by s3b4k
if evolution exists why would there be religion why would someone fake god?

um, there are plenty of religious people that view evolution as a perfectly logical and very realy system

actually, the catholic church endorses evolution

I am not a scientist, but even to an average Joe such as myself, I can punch holes in these theories...

(you gotts read the site first)

***Decay of Earth's Magnetic Field...

Interesting... take the observations of 175+ years, make a graph, if going back in time the graph line goes up, you just keep drawing the line until you reach a number that says "ooh, there's no way the earth could support life before this". All in all, the earths magnetic field is not very strong to begin with, and the decay of the field is due to the approching shift, the magnetic field will be at 0% before reversing, like having to bring your car to a complete stop before going in reverse.

***Human Artifacts throughout the Geologic Column...

This proves just the opposite, a shoe found in rock?? DO you know how long it would take for that to happen?? more that 6,500 years, I can tell you that much.

***Helium Content in Earth's Atmosphere...

Yeah... and... that is helium 4 accumulated from space. It sounds like he didn't take into consideration the helium 4 that is produced by the Earth, and that ALL helium eventually leaves the atmosphere since it is lighter than our atmosphere. In fact there is no real way to keep tabs on the growth of helium levels on Earth, since helium literally keeps comming and going.

***Expansion of Space Fabric...

Time only dialates when you are traveling at high speeds, so if galaxies are traveling away from each other at high speeds, time for us has slowed down, but actual time would then be much longer than what we are experiencing, in essence proving just the opposite of the intended theory.


***Population Statistics...

This is using modern data of people living to 80, 90, 100 years. Even 60 years ago the everage was half this, and up until maybe 300 years ago, you weren't expected to live much past 30, and in prehistory, we are looking at death in the early 20's. I'm sure that if you take these new variables into consideration, and start with 8 people, you would find that population growth wouldn't have started til sometime after the biblical record of Noahs flood, which would prove the bible wrong, by saying that Noah couldn't have exhisted.

***Design in Living Systems...

And how many stars are in the universe?? Yeah, that's right, if you take that into consideration along with the billions of years that the universe was cool enough to allow life to flourish, with Earth being that lucky 1 in 10 4,478,296 .17, I would say that NOT ONLY are we with in the % range, there should actaully be more life in the universe that just us.

***Design in the Human Brain...

Yeah, and your point is?? Does that mean someone else created the brains for the cat, horse and dog?? And that God only had his hand in dealing with the human brain?? Hmmmm... The human brain became complex out of necessity. The humans with inadiquate brains were usually eaten by various creatures of the man-eating type. So this means God only got it right with the human brains and not the brains of all the other animals?? I thought God was supposed to be perfect. The imperfection of the brains of the other animal shows that the brains adapted to the needs and necessity of the surroundings, and not "created". You ask any lion that is knawing on human bones in the African grasslands, and I'm sure it will tell you that IT has the superior brain.

Wouldn't the scientific evidence for Creation be the Big Bang?
I'm not quite convinced of it yet but most scientists believe it's a fact.

Originally posted by LAGoff
Wouldn't the scientific evidence for Creation be the Big Bang?
I'm not quite convinced of it yet but most scientists believe it's a fact.

no, the big bang isn't evidence of anything other than the current form of the universe beginning
before that, the universe was a singularity
and
i'm no expert on that subject of cosmology, but all evidence points towards the universe constantly expanding at a rate consistent with the big bang theory

and just to reiterate thist
the big bang is in no way a part of evolutionary theory


[edit on 2/16/07 by madnessinmysoul]

The entire realm of creationism is strange to me.

The Universe follows some very amazing rules, physics, chemistry, and biology. Our understanding of them grows by leaps and bounds every year, do we (as a species) have all the answers? No of course not.

However it’s silly to say we don’t understand a LOT more. The computer that these words appear are a perfect example, science does understand some of the fundamental aspects of the physical universe.

How can creationist think that Creation would have such amazing simple rules. The same rules that affect every aspect of our world things like; gravity, electromagnetism, atomic decay, and the fundamental binding of the molecules that we study under different types of scopes.

These things exist there is no doubt of that, we study them, we manipulate them to our purpose. Why would a God create those rules and then ignore them completely to ‘create’ humans? It seems like an insult to that God? (IMO) These rules are universal, they are amazing and as we learn more we see how they are simple. Could God ignore the rules it created? (Could It make a rock to heavy for It to lift etc) Sure, it just seems like a waste of time (14+ billion years).

If I was a creationist I would think the Universe is truly proof of God. Not some book written to help people live a better life.

I think many people want to believe that God is close to them and has a vested interest in their well being. I think these people need to believe that God has something in store for them and that they could never have evolved from slime, reptiles, primates etc. I say RIGHT ON BROTHER!! If that is what you believe more power to you! Just please don’t try to litigate your belief don’t make your mythology the basis for modern law, don’t create pseudo science to explain it. Treat it as the Hallowed belief that everyone should be entitled to.

I would have loved to see the original link by the OP, but it no longer exists. Surprise, surprise! Instead let me touch on a few things I read while scanning through this tread.

Proof of an ancient flood does not prove the 'Noah' story or the rest of Genisis, it just proves that there was a flood, probably at the end of the last ice age. Secondly, the Big Bang does not prove the creation myth, quite the opposite in fact. It amazes me how modern, educated people cling so tightly to a myth created by an ancient, uneducated people!