Who would win the war? need your help :)

Nobody would win.

America might have won if it had not gone into Iraq, but wake up those that think America could win. America has not even won in Iraq.

There are two wars to win: the propoganda war and the war involving bombs and bullets.

America has lost the propoganda war in Iraq. In other words, its actions have created 10,000 Bin Ladens, as the intelligence services warned it would.

However bad Saddam was, most of the world now think America is also a bad guy. After so much sympathy following 9/11, Bush is now the most hated man on the planet. Hatred and anger for America already could result in nuclear devices being used in American cities.

The American borders with Mexico and the ports are not being protected well enough. It could happen anytime. We know there are missing nukes and America has given the motivation. But the terrorists don't even need nukes to cause devastation. The 9/11 hijackers used knives and box cutters. A determined terrorist could cause mayhem with a knife or a rocket launcher and most airline cargo is not checked.

If America bombs Iran, the consequences could be World War 3. We just don't know how it could esculate.

Certainly most of the allies of America would not support the action. Dead Iranians would be televised around the world. It would be a recruiting sergeant for Al-Qaeda and other groups to hit America. Instead of creating 10,000 Bin ladens there would be 100,000. And tell me how America can stop them?

America would be devastated as nearly every country on the planet condemns it. The dollar would be dumped and the economy would collapse and every newly made terrorist would head straight for America to exercise their revenge. Bush would use extreme draconian measures to prevent further terror attacks, but it would be an impossible fight. What was once a great nation would close in on itself and enter a long period of darkness. A New World Order would begin, that did not include America.












[edit on 6-4-2006 by Clipper]

You are just talking out your ass. Where are these 10,000 OBLs? American hasn’t been attacked in 5 years. If there were 10,000 OBL’s wouldn’t one have them done something yet?

Who’s going to drop the dollar? China? The Yan is peg to the dollar; if it were allowed to float they’d lose their currency advantage. How much will their US treasuries be worth if they sell dollars?

Is the rest of world going the Euro? Please, the Euro zone has more debt that the US (as a % of GDP) and can barely scratch out 1% growth. Private sector job growth for the last decade is flat.

Please get a clue about economics before your run your uniformed mouth.



[edit on 6-4-2006 by ElTiante]

Originally posted by ElTiante
You are just talking out your ass. Where are these 10,000 OBLs? American hasn’t been attacked in 5 years. If there were 10,000 OBL’s wouldn’t one have them done something yet?

Who’s going to drop the dollar? China? The Yan is peg to the dollar; if it were allowed to float they’d lose their currency advantage. How much will their US treasuries be worth if they sell dollars?

Is the rest of world going the Euro? Please, the Euro zone has more debt that the US (as a % of GDP) and can barely scratch out 1% growth. Private sector job growth for the last decade is flat.

Please get a clue about economics before your run your uniformed mouth.



[edit on 6-4-2006 by ElTiante]

Can you spare the childish insults?

The dollar is already massively devalued if you haven't noticed. America's economy is being kept afloat by borrowing from central banks around the world. The debt is 28,000 dollars for every American. It would take one nation to dump the dollar big time and it could be a melt down as nobody wants to be the last to keep a devalued currency. One man, George Soros, broke Britain and devalued the pound in the early 90s and he has warned this could happen in USA. It could take one nation (let's say Iran) to screw America and send it into a deep depression. Funny enough Saddam was threatening to dump the dollar when he was attacked.

As for 10,000 Bin Ladens, I would say that is an understatement. Nobody can doubt that the invasion of Iraq has led to the radicalisation of thousands of more potential terrorists.

The intelligence services of UK, America's closest ally, reported only last week, that Iraq has created a terror backlash that will last for the long term and that there's "a clear consensus within the UK extremist community that Iraq is a legitimate jihad and should be supported." And that is only talking about those already within the UK already, not about those that are within Muslim and Arab countries, that do not get the western media version of events.

www.timesonline.co.uk...

That America has not been attacked is little reason for complacency. There is a vastly increased motivation and certainly the means and the incidences of terrorist activity around the world targeting American allies should not be dismissed.

A poll conducted in 35 countries suggested only 12% of people thought invading Iraq had made terrorism less likely:

www.veteransforcommonsense.org...

The fact is governments and people worldwide realise Iraq was one almighty cockup that has made the world a lot less safe.









[edit on 6-4-2006 by Clipper]

Get a clue...
Sure they may be lots of people who wish America ill, this board is full of them. That doesn't mean they're going to do anything about it.

In addition to the above, the deficit will be half its peak by 2008 and the US represents about 1/2 of the world's economic growth.

You know, you’d save yourself a lot of time and typing if you just wrote:

“I don’t know what I’m talking about but I hate America, so I’ll just blather nonsense.”

Digitalgrl
Unfortunately yours is a rookie question! It ain't that simple.

What war? Nuclear or conventional?
What's the war aim?
What's the format?
An all out war involving the US triad or only an air campaign?

There are a number of other variables. So your question is rather simplistic.

Have a look at the scenario I have given in the post below:

politics.abovetopsecret.com...

So there's no question of Iran taking on the US in a conventional scenario.

They can only hit back by adopting terror strikes on US and possibly other western economic assets around the world.

A conventional war can end in a matter of days whilst an unconventional terror campaign by fundamentalists can last for many years.

Thank you to all that posted. i appreciate your concise opinons. As for the perspective that it was simplistic, well thats exactly what i was going for just opinons, not really a run down for debate. just wanted to see cleary what people thought here on ATS. i do agree that issue is complex however.


Some things to address:

Dana2006: i have no idea where you are coming from. at least not as to why your hostility was directed towards me. I have never said one hateful thing about islam or muslims on this board at all. so i would appreciate it if you did not label me as a hater or incompassionate human being with regards to issues of humanity and personal religious beliefs. i asked the question about this because its a hot topic, and something that is causing alot of concern for people all over the place. i do not find it intelligent to make hateful blanket statements about people, and so therefore i would just like to state that just because i am american it does not mean that i am a hateful person. Do i think war is a computer game, absolutly NOT. i wanted a clear opinon. without all the bickering inbetween, so thats why i set a format. i would have NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER asking about any other war scenerio with any other country. again just because i am american doesnt mean that i kiss the rear end of israel. clearly u have some issues with americans, which is fine, but your issue is not with me. you dont know me, and i have never said one unkind word to you. you were not obligated to participate in this thread, and the question i asked was of pure intention.



again, id like to thank everyone that shared their opinions with me. you brought up some good points and its helped me understand where people on either side are coming from. Clearly something has to be done to better each of these countries. and hopefully we wont have to see america and iran go to war at all. but again, its unpredictable and complex.


MODS: please close this thread. the survey of opinion is complete and has gotten a bit off track anyway.

Again thanks for sharing your opinons with me.

Kind Regards.
Digitalgrl

the question is war.who really wins.no one because eventually they come back and invade you.there is no positive result of war.historically many empires fall from grace not one has survived.war is a fools game just like chess and you learn earth is waiting for you to die lol.........

Originally posted by DigitalGrl
however.


Dana2006: i have no idea where you are coming from. at least not as to why your hostility was directed towards me. I have never said one hateful thing about islam or muslims on this board at all. so i would appreciate it if you did not label me as a hater or incompassionate human being with regards to issues of humanity and personal religious beliefs. i asked the question about this because its a hot topic, and something that is causing alot of concern for people all over the place. i do not find it intelligent to make hateful blanket statements about people, and so therefore i would just like to state that just because i am american it does not mean that i am a hateful person. Do i think war is a computer game, absolutly NOT. i wanted a clear opinon. without all the bickering inbetween, so thats why i set a format. i would have NO PROBLEM WHATSOEVER asking about any other war scenerio with any other country. again just because i am american doesnt mean that i kiss the rear end of israel. clearly u have some issues with americans, which is fine, but your issue is not with me. you dont know me, and i have never said one unkind word to you. you were not obligated to participate in this thread, and the question i asked was of pure intention.

you know something, it makes me sick when I see an american who is really arrogant pretending that he's caring and perfect, what makes me more sick when I read what a stupid american like Mr. Eltiante judges a whole relegion and a whole nation in one sentence. this mean alot. all the world has ;ots of issue with america , not only me, try to think a little about the mess you've created in the middleeast. and I advice you to read:

An unedited version of (Israel Lobby) article is available at ksgnotes1.harvard.edu... or at papers.ssrn.com...=891198.

I don't think victory in a war with Iran is tenable for either side.

I know many feel that Iran could hinder the U.S. by damaging the global oil supply (and, of course, the oil market), set off a firestorm of worldwide terrorism, make life a living hell for U.S. forces in Iraq, and bog the U.S. down in guerilla warfare for years in Iran. Those people feel that this constitutes victory for Iran. I would suggest that this dismisses the countless civilian deaths (unavoidable in any war), destruction of infrastructure, economic collapse, and other variables we can't even begin to imagine yet, which would result from such a conflict. Even if Iran "won" by these standards, it would be an extremely bitter, traumatic victory for the country and all its people.

I know many others feel that Iran would not be capable of causing the United States significant economic harm through its oil resources, that the U.S. can successfully destroy Iran's nuclear facilities, air defenses, and other significant targets through air strikes and covert ops alone, and that any reprisals would be worth the denial of nuclear weapons to Iran, and the possible overthrow of Iran's government by dissidents that could ensue. Those people feel this would constitute victory for the U.S. I suggest that this dismisses the possibility of Iranian or Iranian ally attacks on Israel, and any devastating response from Israel which could lead to a wider regional conflict, the possibility that Iran will respond to air strikes with actions which would require feet on the ground to deter or defeat, the fact that oil prices will still spike regardless of whether Iran successfully hinders supply and that even moderate increases in gas prices can place a heavy toll on U.S. citizens and the economy, and the extremely high probability of a smoldering insurgency in Iran if we do deploy ground forces in numbers sufficient to occupy the country should circumstances require it (unlikely but possible.)

It is unlikely that air strikes alone would topple the Iranian regime. It isn't impossible, but militants can complicate any efforts by dissident rebels to take control, and it is all but certain that Hezbollah and Al Qaeda would flock to Iran. Sectarian strife in Iraq could spill over the borders into Iran if a significant power vacuum is left and the Mullahs are killed or forced from power. Granted, some of these scenarios are highly unlikely, but we believed it unlikely that an insurgency would still be going on in Iraq by this time as well. Afghanistan, Iran, and Iraq, could become a swath of land where insurgency and sectarian conflict becomes a way of life. This is why I feel neither Iran nor the U.S. would "win" a war.

All of this assumes Israel does not strike Iran first, unilaterally, or that Israel does not take part in any conflict with Iran as a U.S. ally. Let's just say that many in the reason would be "displeased" by this.

Dana2006,

first of all im not a he im a she. second of all how come i get the flack for what one stupid american says? and quite frankly I havent done anything to harm the middle east. i just graduated from high school 2 years ago and am in college. so its not like i hold a whole lot of power. i have muslim friends. in fact my friend eshad's family immigrated from Iraq. so i havent done anything harmful to the muslim community. again, dont take your problems with america out on me when you have no idea what who i am or what my beliefs are. you dont want americas to make these generalized statments about muslims then dont make them about americans. every person in the whole world has different views. and just because you were born in a certian country doesnt mean you are some kind of robot and you all think the same. i had no choice as to where i was born, and it is unfair for you to judge me just based on that fact. i certainly dont judge people simply based on demographics, thats ridiculous. there is no justification for hate in any form. again, your hatred for americans has been unfairly dished out on me. how do you know i am PRETENDING to care when you dont even know me, and have not heard ONE hateful thing come out of my mouth?

MODS: please close this thread. my thread has gotten way off track and the poll has finished.

Kind Regards,
Digitalgrl

[edit on 10/01/2004 by DigitalGrl]

There is an excellent hypothetical written by Professor Paul Rogers of Oxford Research Group on what could possibly happen if there was an attack on Iran. Very interesting read


Click on the ONLINE VERSION link

Paul Rogers is Professor of Peace Studies at the University of Bradford and Global Security Consultant to Oxford Research Group. Paul has worked in the field of international security, arms control and political violence for over 20 years. He lectures at universities and defence colleges in several countries, and his publications include 20 books and over 100 papers. His latest book, Iraq and the War on Terror: Twelve Months of Insurgency, 2004/2005, was published by I.B. Tauris in November 2005. Paul is a regular commentator on global security issues in both the national and international media.

I think America would "Win"

1. Better food, weapons, training, equipment, armor, bullets, people...you name it.

2. More willingly to go to "War" for something they believe in willingly.

However...no one wins in "War"...needless people die, for little to no reason.

Usually it's over land, or power, or money...which all 3 equal the same thing basically. Never...has...the land, power, or money...been given to those same soldiers who willingly fought...except as some measly paycheck.

I am a Warrior, by mind, body, and spirit...and I know this. I've studied the Art of War since I was 6 years old...I am a Spartan by life experience. There are never any true "Victors" in "War".

Someones father, brother, mother, sister...die...period.

Usually on both sides.

There were no Weapons of Mass Destruction found in Iraq...that was what we went there for.

So...why are we still there?

Because...we want to give Democracy to them?

I say Horse Puckey....Democracy has to be wanted, to be fought for, and won...by the people who live in the Hell hole of a dictatorial idiot like Saddam Hussein.

Democracy cannot be given to anyone...period.





[edit on 9-4-2006 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

the US would win in the start but lose alot (Iran isnt a third world country and can bite back unlike Iraq which had an army of pu$$ies who ran for the hills and buried their gear)

after the us neutrolizes Irans armed forces they would face a better armed under ground movement which in return would be able to cause more damage/death to US forces then the Iraqi ones could

hopefully then countries will start to drop the USD and use Euros
(get a few bargins off Ebay)

noone would win .
people die . babies,woman,children,fathers,animals,bussiness,farms and ways of life turn to dust because of people who are greedy and want to have a contest about whos manhood is bigger... i mean for crying out loud cant they just have a game of mario kart and whoever wins wins and that would be the end of it??

Originally posted by Omega85
noone would win .
people die . babies,woman,children,fathers,animals,bussiness,farms and ways of life turn to dust because of people who are greedy and want to have a contest about whos manhood is bigger... i mean for crying out loud cant they just have a game of mario kart and whoever wins wins and that would be the end of it??

100%!!!! Or let the 2 who want to war , fight to the death. Compulsory front line military service for any and all approving Senate and Congress family members would be another good rule.

agreed , there just to pig headed to work it out. i find it unfortunate that there power hungry ways of dealing with things are just going to make things worse and worse untill it causes a mass downfall of all we know.

Cheers .
Omega

Originally posted by ElTiante


Get a clue...
Sure they may be lots of people who wish America ill, this board is full of them. That doesn't mean they're going to do anything about it.

In addition to the above, the deficit will be half its peak by 2008 and the US represents about 1/2 of the world's economic growth.

You know, you’d save yourself a lot of time and typing if you just wrote:

“I don’t know what I’m talking about but I hate America, so I’ll just blather nonsense.”

euro area?

europe is completly different to america. you cannot make a comparason. america is one country with 50? states. EU is 26+ individual countries. secondly what is "euro area" there is no such place. your graph seems to be made by someone that doesnt know what there doing.

also about the EU for example britain has its own currency the stearling pound which is infact worth close to double what the dollar is worth. some countries in europe are rich while some are poor what your chart is doing is mixing up and creating an average of europe which is unfair infact if you want to do a debt comparason then you should do each country individually vs america rather then a group becuase european countries are individuals when it comes down to there own economies whats makes european countries look like they have high debt is not the main euro countries but the countries that have just been let into the EU which where former communist or debt riden nations who where poor and are now bulding themselves up.

None the less
War is suicide to all those involved and i dissagree with war totally.if i was a soldier with the knowladge i have today about the media and things i would find it very hard to believe that what i was fighting for was just, given that the media and the higher people in these things can twist truths and tell lies in order to get what they want done.
imagine going into war and watching your friends aswell as the ones u love die all around u , and whats worse is what if this all was for nothing??
It all seems rather sad and pointless to me. attack , retaliate , attack ,retaliate , all the while people are dying and for some reason the parties involved say they won even though they might have wiped out thousands of innocents and hundreds of pawns in there game they call troops. noone wins.... everyone looses which to me seems very pathetic and pointless.
just a opinion.

Omega

I think the Illuminati (cough) I mean US government would win because!!!

1. What the hell else are we good at besides taking what isnt ours
2. This has been a well developed plan needed in order to save the planet from an overpopulation problem (Whipe out some radical muslims and save more earth for the christians (illuminati)

Makes sense to me!! Look at it this way folks.. if China is getting powerful and they are working with Iran the only feasable option is to whipe them out for the sake of the world! Muahhahaa. NK and Russia is next! Muahah!

If bush launches an airstrike on iran i think that that would end his administration immediatly.what are your thoughts on this people??