Could a ‘typical’ aircraft manufacturer design and build a stealth combat aircraft

But you have to understand the origins of that cost.

The reason things like the F-22 etc are so expensive is that they are using the absolute cutting edge, indeed, they are the cutting edge of technology.


So if, say, Cessna, were to take a step or two back from that cutting edge - so we'd have:

- non afterburning engine
- non supersonic flight profile
- supply the aircraft without radar, and let the customer get their own
- statically stable aircraft, not requiring FBW
- no high AoA capabilities
- conservative construction and techniques

In essence, they would be producing something akin to a low RCS BAe Hawk, and that is easily feasible. Whether there is a market for such a craft or not is another thing entirely.

The software used to develop the general shape for the 117 was called Echo. This software was developed by LM SW in the 70s. Echo was based on a Russian theory that has been public domain since 60`s (maybe earlier).

I am probably sitting in front of more than enough computing power to design a (basic) stealth A/C.


I am sure just about any A/C manufacturer that had expertise in Jet propulsion and composites materials could do it.

The cost thing is not such a big deal - Bird Of Prey is quoted at $67m.

If you want to know why military aircraft are so expensive, you can't blame it on stealth! In fact the F-117 program was fairly cheap, but then that came from the Skunk Works

When there is a requirement, stealth is not too hard, hence all the stealty UAVs and UCAVs appearing from various manufacturers.

But for a manned aircraft, you really have to ask: why would anyone bother given the disadvantages? This is a serious question.

Originally posted by uuhelpus

The software used to develop the general shape for the 117 was called Echo. This software was developed by LM SW in the 70s. Echo was based on a Russian theory that has been public domain since 60`s (maybe earlier).

Actually, its a bit different that that. Echo I was the intial program. Ustimev's papaer was used to perfect the model and the program that was used to design the F-117 was Echo II

Originally posted by FredT


Actually, its a bit different that that. Echo I was the intial program. Ustimev's papaer was used to perfect the model and the program that was used to design the F-117 was Echo II

Thanks for the clarification. The only point of my post was that if someone wanted (with adequate resources) to, they could build one, just for the hell of it.

Not that Cessna Textron would.... Though I do hear there is a new fixed gear, high wing model in the works. What a bunch of trend setters lol

Well, Scaled Composites isn't exactly an aviation giant and they seem to have built a few rather special planes - including stealth.

What is the use with stealth pasasanger planes... The point is that they would be visible in the radars... not opposite...

Originally posted by Wembley
Well, Scaled Composites isn't exactly an aviation giant and they seem to have built a few rather special planes - including stealth.

Such as, Wembley?
I certainly do hope that you are not implying the B2 test model.
A list of their projects shows no "stealth" aircraft.







seekerof

[edit on 7-4-2006 by Seekerof]

Yeah, if you look at their projects list you'd think they'd never had anything to do with the military at all. Curious. X-37 ATTT and White Knight all have DARPA money.

Scaled Composites are said to be the origin of a number of one-of-a-kind special mission aircraft with stealth characteristics. I've seen more than one claim that Senior Citizen is a follow-on to the ATTT.

Now, it may not be as stealthy as Bird Of Prey - but that wasn't the question...

Originally posted by planeman
List of countries who have built stealth warships:
...USA
Sweden
France
China
Israel
Netherlands
...?

India too.

The first one was launched into service in 2003.
www.dailytimes.com.pk...

2 more are in different stages of completion and will be launched in 2006 and 2007.

For more details and info >>

www.bharat-rakshak.com...

And more planned >> www.bharat-rakshak.com...

Originally posted by Seekerof

Originally posted by Wembley
Well, Scaled Composites isn't exactly an aviation giant and they seem to have built a few rather special planes - including stealth.

Such as, Wembley?

I certainly do hope that you are not implying the B2 test model.
A list of their projects shows no "stealth" aircraft.
[edit on 7-4-2006 by Seekerof]

Well they did built that model and it was stealthy, and the size of an operational Aircraft(1/4 the size of b-2). So they may not have the ability to design it but the sure can built it (without the spacial coating that is and all the high tech features). But isn't the form that matters most for a stealth design?

from the b-2 model site:

Although this was Scaled's first experience in RCS model fabrication, we found that our standard aircraft fabrication methods were ideally suited to these special requirements; this also gave Scaled an excellent opportunity to develop its capabilities in a technically demanding specialty. We also learned that LO techniques are not necessarily cost drivers; our basic structural approach naturally results in very accurate, smooth surfaces, with excellent step, gap, and wave performance.

Originally posted by Seekerof
Such as, Wembley?

I certainly do hope that you are not implying the B2 test model.
A list of their projects shows no "stealth" aircraft.


seekerof

Scaled without a doubt has the capability to produce VLO aircraft.
This is going to be one of those posts I actually hate, where the poster makes a claim and does not provide any proof or links.
All I have to offer is that I am initmately familiar with some of their projects and VLO tech is not a problem should they be tasked with providing that service.

Without going into specifics there is plenty of circumstantial "proof", all you have to do is take a good in-depth look at Scaled Composites' very close relationship with Northrop-Grumman and the experience of their VP Kevin Mickey, former program coordinator with Lockheed Skunkworks whose duties there included program management of VLO technologies. This technical knowledge starts at top management and goes all the way through the company.

Ok, Ok....geesh...I stand corrected....over a model.




seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof
Ok, Ok....geesh...I stand corrected....over a model.

seekerof

It's ok seekerof, we still love you.

This is why I don't contradict intelgurl, she seems to know alot about the subject through personal experience.

Shattered OUT...

Ofcourse a regular aircraft company can make a stealth aircraft the main problem is making a decent "generation" 4/5 aircraft becuase it's mroe then just stealth it's also an advanced radar and fire control system which has to be perfect.

To design and make a low RCS/LO/"Stealth" UAV/aircraft body is very easy infact you can actually get ahold of actual software nowadays which actually calculates the RCS to a very acurate percentage.

for example the following software :


cadrcs

www.cadrcs.com...

Dowload Demonstration of software



and then there is

Lucernhammer MT

lucernhammer.tripointindustries.com...

Sample


etc..........

alot of people actually think that the software to design stealth aircraft are (a) difficult (b) top secret. Both are wrong infact they have been available to the public for a very long time and they are based on public mathmatical soluations which can be seen on the internet for free.

Infact if you wanted to design your own Stealth aircraft you could on your home PC. Infact a 3Ghz processor and 512MB will be more then enough to design a pretty decent aircraft infact you could actually design a very advanced stealth body.

What alot of people don;t understand is why the aircraft designers use such powerfull computers this is becuase (1) they need instant result while the home computer amy take a few minutes to calculate the RCS (2) the majority of processing power is not to calculate the RCS but for other calculations such as aerodynamics and flight simulations which is why they have such powerfull machines to have pression aerodynamic calculations.

Whats really interesting is if you have for example 3D Studio Max or anything other 3D program that lets you give propery or write scripts then you can actually program it to calculate the RCS of an object if you can write the code properly and you can use a basic of the shelf 3D design program to do the calulations by adding the publically available mathmatical soluations and theories into the 3D program.

Infact i downloaded an Open Source 3D software package called Blender the other day and it comes with free source code and you could easily modify the code to add RCS calulations to it which would allow you to design your own UAV/Stealth aircraft in your bedroom for free.


I have absolutly no doubt a country/company could make a "stealth"/LO aircraft/UAV if it wanted to what i doubt is there capability to design/make advanced radar and fire control systems for that aircraft/UAV.

Originally posted by iqonx
What alot of people don;t understand is why the aircraft designers use such powerfull computers this is becuase
(1) they need instant result while the home computer amy take a few minutes to calculate the RCS
(2) the majority of processing power is not to calculate the RCS but for other calculations such as aerodynamics and flight simulations which is why they have such powerfull machines to have pression aerodynamic calculations.

Exactly, its all tied in.

If they change the shape for RCS, they have to look at the aero changes, the stability and control changes and the structural changes.

Thats 4 sims, while the FEA for structures isn't too bad, and stability and control is quick, the CFD is a nightmare as it requires much more attention and resources.

Although, to contradict myself a bit, very little CFD work was done for the F-22, it mainly being limited to initial studies of forces (at low AoA) to let the structures group get something to work on. Indeed, the correlation of CFD to wind tunnel was impressive for work done in the 80s.

During the EMD phase, I believe more CFD work was done in seperated flow regimes to work out a flutter problem with the 'vertical' fins - the problem still exists, but is not large enough to be an issue.

[edit on 21-4-2006 by kilcoo316]