ok this is where i left off

Another issue would be gay marriage. This one is interesting, in that Judaism established the marriage covenant, but the state integrated that religious concept into itself. Now, we Christians and Jews are being told we have to give the state control over our religious covenant. Our religious covenant has rules, but the state doesn't like all those rules, so they want us to change our religion to accommodate the current culture

OK, now on this part i will have to agree and disagree... let me start by what I agree with. I absolutely believe 110% that if there is something that your religious beliefs forbid,then you should not do it. Now let me stress this part of it ... if there is something that YOUR religious beliefs forbid, then YOU should not do it.. But noone has the right to stop others who MAY OR MAY NOT believe the same things you do.. from doing what it is they want... in this case gay marraige. IM NOT saying you have to like it...but the mantra of christianity is tolorance is it not... we must rememberthat each and everyone of us is on our own journey of the soul. Some of us choose to flock together and some uf us try it out alone( i suspect, in this regard that jesus felt very very alone sometimes). And it is between each of us as individuals.. and our respective gods... as to how to best pursue said journey.
And, while I may not like the belief as anarchy and i dont agree with satanism .. as long as they are not harming anyone in any physical or mental form(without the person being of consenting age and consenting mind).... and also, as long as they are not trying to force their beliefs into law; then they are free to be secure in their beliefs and papers and possessions in their homes.

I know that we have strayed from the topic of religious war a sham, but I felt we needed to go down this road to clarify a few things.

Personally from a domestic view i think that both sides are blowing the culture war WAY out of propotion... and from the muslim/christian aspect... that ties into my perspective of 911 way to intricately for me to answer and would best be left for another thread.

There is a War. It was declared by Christians against themselves in order to make themselves out as victims in order to reclaim the high moral ground which they already claimed by being self-righteous.

If you Google "War on Christianity", Christian and Conservative sites come up, as well as sites, the ACLU, pointing out that the Christians are the only Soldiers in this War.

The problem for Christians is that they are backward, and their attempts to hold back the expansion of liberty are fated to slip.

The Handmaid's Tale explains all.

Columbus, The Dove

Okay -

This is my perspective on "The War Against Christians".

I feel that there is definately a war between Christians and types of Christianity; there always has been. Throughout time, Christianity has definately earned a name that is associated with fear, control and even death.
A Christian is a follower of Christ and what Christ believed, well at least that is what the definition was once upon a time. To look back in history, to read the bible (which I have several times), to hear and watch someone who preach over the television, to receive visitors at your door; all who are representing in the name of Christianity, are all reasons why I stayed away from "Christianity" and the church for years. It did not stop me from believing in God and believing what Christ tried to teach to those who would listen. I do believe in God's laws and the reason why they are there; at least to me it all makes sense. Why we have moral laws, etc.; all these laws were set forth to protect every person and our existance. Unfortunately, control and power have always been mans (or womens if you want to get political) means of existance. There will always be a war against who's right and who's wrong for the sake of power and we will always try to justify our own actions to feel good, empowered, comfortable, etc.
The thing that I see happening more and more is that there are some people who will stand up for what they believe in without pursecuting the person that they believe is doing wrong, but in return they are attacked for standing up for what they believe in; hatred is very strong right now, but I don't think it is necessarily "against Christians", I believe it is because people just want to do what they want to do, what makes them feel good, empowers them, etc. Morals values, right or wrong does not hold the same significance. There are so many that have turned to "what feels good at the time". This is sad to me because we are losing our human accountability, our self discipline and our children are not learning the importance of these things and will be in control of the future. - okay, sorry about the bunny trail.
I do believe there is anger and resistence against Christianity, but not a "war" so to speak.
I pray that not just Christians, but all people really take a look at what Christ was trying to teach us. It is good to stand up for what you believe; you do not have to conform to anything you do not want to. Christ teaches us that it is okay, but He also teaches us that we are accountable for ourselves, not others actions or choices; that love is the greatest commandment; we should concentrate on our own relationship with God.
Sadly enough, I believe that so many people wish for someone to teach them instead of seeking the truth for themselves. Too many people are so busy bashing each other that they forget they could have but a blink of an eye to actually "live" here on this earth and maybe should concentrate more on the truth of their own existence. Rather than looking for "wars".

I myself love to hear other's opinions and viewpoints; I am pretty open minded. However, for the truth I seek that myself and don't rely on a spoon-feeding. Opinions/views may not necessarily be the truth.

Okay, okay, I am done

original quote by:Godsent
Sadly enough, I believe that so many people wish for someone to teach them instead of seeking the truth for themselves.

quite true.. and if Im not mistaken it says in the bible "feed a man a fish, he eats for a day;teach a ma to fish and he eats for life." or something to that effect . I dont have a bible on hand at the moment or else Id post verse and chapter and such. But no doubt this is an elemental truth.

St Udio

as far as the symbols the gov't is willing to put on the headstones...

I believe they are being sued about this, there was an article I was reading over the weekend. They don't allow wiccan symbols....and a family wants to put a pentagram on one of the headstones. I imagine the family will be allowed to do this long before it hits the court system though.

The war on Christians is a Political act.

the war on drugs , the war on poverty, etc are orchestrated by the GOP, since the late 80's It was a popular theme, because it worked ( got the vote out, didnt do a thing for the issue itself). The war on Christians probably originates from the back room of the religious right ( evangelicals) working with GOP strategists since the 2000 elections.
It is a way to solidify your political Base, get out the votes, create a victim mentality and turn it into a Political machine. The sad part is the evengelicals have no idea how lost and betrayed they are.

Tone 23 posted:

"...but the mantra of christianity is tolorance is it not... "

This is one of the deceptions in which Christians often get caught up into without being aware. This is easily done to Christians who do not know what it means to be of the Salt of the Earth. They have been replaced in Salt with Sugar.

This is not so say that Christians should not be meek and mild...but not sugary and sweet. Salt is what holds back corruption ..not sugar and sweetness.

The practice of Christianity is to come out from amongst them and be ye seperate sayeth the Lord. Touch not the unclean thing.

This is not tolerance ....this is seperation. THe method of this world is to mix corruption with uncorruption. When you put a bad apple in a barrel of good apples the bad apple does not turn good. This can be done over and over and always the same result. This is the purpose of seperation ..not tolerance. So the good apples dont turn bad.
If the world wants to do its corrupt thing...so be it. CHristians seperate from corruption..this is the Christian way of not tolerating Corruption or mixing new wine with olde or leven with unleven. To get shed of it ...seperate.

THe way of this world is to force feed everyone especially through government mechanisms into tolerance of anything and everything no matter how corrupt and offensive to Believers. This is the war which so offends Christians who take thier Faith seriously. And this force feeding is growing ...daily.

There is a posting here that many Christians dont know where their symbols and holidays originate..I have found this to be true. There is much ignorance among my Christian Brethren on this history. THere is even much ignorance among my Christian Brethren about Christianity and I include myself in this.

Thanks,
Orangetom

it also says we should let the weeds grow with the wheat, lest we uproot the wheat trying to get rid of the weeds.

no one is asking the religious right to mingle with the sinners, but in their zealous attempt to convert (get rid) of them, they are apt to destroy some of their own.

as time goes on, the issues will expand, and the beliefs that will be at issue will be more and more constested within the religious community. this disagreement within the religous community itself should not be decided by laws and decrees by the government!!

which is what is being asked of the government by the religious right now.

Historically Government is a religion..the religion of politics...human glory..the greatness of men. One can see this often in history if one knows where to look.

The historic tendency of government is always to replace the relgion of the people with the Government religion to help government maintain and keep power. This is not a new concept. Lots of mechanisms have been devised through the centurys to accomplish this.

These religious groups who are sniffing up the government behinds for position will get burned in the end and be nothing but ashes...they are not following the principle of Seperation. They are trying to sleep with government...wrong move. Government will consume them and toss them by the roadside...not just these religious groups but multitudes of others already laying by the wayside.

Seperation is what Christian Groups do to prevent mixing leven with unleven..new wine with olde..bad apples with good apples..et al. Putting a bad apple in the barrel with good apples ...never produces a good apple..all of the apples eventually turn bad...without exception in the natural order of things. This is the reason for seperation. Many religious peoples seem to have forgotten this Truth in favor of "feel good ism.."
And "feel good ism" is often much of what passes for Government and politics today..not actual facts or Truth.

Thanks,
Orangetom

A very ...very intresting post you have made here. You have opened up a can of worms with your "In God we Trust" position.

First off...prior to June 22 1968...when you could still get silver redeemed for the paper notes...and prior to 1933 when they still circulated gold coins you could make the claim to just weights and measures or just balances and just scales.

A just measure is a delight to the Lord.

Yes I am familiar with that position and ideology. It is a good one.

If you look at the coinage in silver and also in gold..there was a rationale to the coinage. Like measuring spoons or cups in Mom's kitchen...they represented a logical progression of Gold or Silver ...in a linear,logical reasonable manner.
Before we had what today is called a nickel we had a coin in circulation called a half dime..a 5 cent weight of silver. I know this because I own two of them circa 1854. It was a coin half the weight/fineness of a dime.

I will also tell you this Dawnstar...before when we had redeemable notes ..that said..."Will pay to the bearer on demand." THere was no in god we trust on the back of them. Check it out if you can even find one. I have several. I think it was always on most of the coins.

Our coinage is so bad today that we have a Susan B. Anthony dollar which is 2/3s the size of a 50 cent coin and yet claims to be twice as valuable. Yet this phoney dollar is made out of the same junk as the 50 cent pieces. This is educated stupidity. YOu have to go to school and get educated to get this dumb..ordinary people are not this dumb. In a system of just weights ,measures , balances, and scales the 50 cent piece is half the weight/fineness of the dollar ..always. The Quarter is of course one quarter the weight/fineness of the dollar and the dimes are of course one tenth weight/fineness of the dollar. So you see it is a linear system..not non linear which we have today.

The original coinage act of this country April 2, 1792 is no accident. It describes both gold and silver dollars to the dollar weight and fineness in gold and silver...
The dollar was a weight and fineness of silver..or a weight and fineness of gold....to the dollar weight. THe system of dollers and cents is a system of weights and measures.

When you dig silver or gold out of the ground and refine it you use a system of measurement called troy ounces or troy pounds.
When you turn these metals into moneys in this country you switch to a different systems of measurements called dollars and cents. This is no longer taught to people since we are so educated and sophisticated today.

The other important point is that if we no longer have a system of just weights and measures in our coinage...or moneys..since the notes are no longer redeemable for specie....when and where did our Government switch gods to the god of unjust weights and measures...unjust scales and balances in which the Lord has no delight.

Also ..why did our government not announce to us that they had switched gods to the unjust god..and the liar. The term for phoney moneys is "counterfit" which is also the name of the god to whom they switched in the new version of "In God We Trust." Do you get the point??

Most peoples educated in the "system " would label me a nut and a fruitcake...but logically and reasonably ..you know this is true. We now have the god of unjust weights ,measures, balances and scales in which the Lord has no delight.

Dawnstar ...I have known this about our money and the god of our government for many years now.... Give me the name of the counterfitter???

No one will ever convince me just on this basis alone that there is not a war on Christians and Christianity...the money system alone is a clear indicator of this war. This war goes back milleniums....to ancient times...and the temples in many civilizations where the money changers plied their trade across tables. Today they are called bankers.

Good post you have made here.
Thanks,
Orangetom

I don't think that the term "War on Christians" is quite accurate though. as you noted the war you speak of goes back through the ages, before there were christians. and well, considering just what it is that these "christians" that are screaming the loudest about this war is saying......

they are trying to cling to pagan holidays that were used centuries ago to corrupt their belief system.

they are clinging to this fake god of their fake money, insisting that it stay on the currency so we can all profess our faith to it.

and they are working ever so hard to get this god of the fake money into the school system.

I have no doubt that many that are doing the complaining are doing so because of ignorance, but there is a force behind it, that is in no way Godly. and I would venture to say, it was never meant to rule on american soil.....

maybe the cries about this "war on christians" is just one big propaganda machine, disinformation being fed to the masses, to when the real persecution of the Godly (not all christian by the way) comes about, well, the people will be so sick of hearing about it they will turn a deaf ear when the help is truly needed?

as to who is the counterfieter? couldn't tell you exactly, except to say, that there is another attempt to bring the antichrist into the world again, and getting us all to conform to one perscribed, state mandated set of beliefs is key to his success...


then again, maybe they are just having faith that God will keep our trade partners decieved into think that those peices of paper we are using to buy things from them is actually worth something, and well, that he will give Bush and company the wisdom to get us out of this mess....

sorry, but I don't have that kind of faith. or that type of God, he wouldn't corrupt himself so badly just to bail us out of a mess we got ourselves into. but well, who knows, maybe if they believe stongly enough....

Originally posted by suzy ryan
There is a war on Christians, and like all wars, the first casualty is TRUTH.

Yep true ..... if you resort to any religion, TRUTH is the first thing you need to block out of your head, cause if you THINK about the truth of religion , then one can only conclude that "God" is a concept concieved by man in order to try and understand and explain things we cannot seem to explain.

Pretty Silly if you ask me, someone who lives by the teachings of a FICTIONAL book that's been re-written more then any other piece of fiction, telling someone else about "thruth"....

Originally posted by suzy ryan
There is a war on Christians, and like all wars, the first casualty is TRUTH.

this is a well known fact...I am not surprised by the attacks on Christianity. I now expect it.

It is disappointing that people are so trucking blind to believe carp but have faith. You know your on the right track when you start to feel the way you do.


GOD IS

Originally posted by Columbus
There is a War. It was declared by Christians against themselves in order to make themselves out as victims in order to reclaim the high moral ground which they already claimed by being self-righteous.

oh shuv this up your butt! ok!!!
DONT truckin stereotype me as an individual for Govt agenda. I have my own faith that doesnt support the majority! Just truckin typical...more stereotypical BS. Just because I believe in Jesus Christ doesnt mean I support the Govt, WHO I state for the record decides how the truck things are or how they are going to be.

The meek shall inherit the earth...! Am I laying down the rules ??? No I am not, nor are my Christian friends..

Start attacking the GOVT and leave Christian faith out of it.

The Christian Faith has been under attack for two thousand years...plus. How it is done has changed over the years but none the less it is under attack. There are warnings about this takeover attempt by the apostles in the New Testament.

The way a counterfit works in order to be effective is that it is not the opposite of the real thing but very similar ..so as to not be spotted by those of whom it is intended to take advantage. Our moneys look similar to the olde system but if you have enought knowlege you can tell it is not the same. THe problem is that enough time has gone by that most no longer think about it...to them what we have today is normal. I however ..having read enough history and looked into it..know the difference. THis was also taught to me by learned elders.

For the record Dawnstar..I dont celebrate any holidays..nor birthdays. I gave up on all that baggage long ago when I realized how easy it is to condition peoples by traditions. I decided by Faith to get off this treadmill..it is unproductive to me.

THe technique of the money changers is to get people into debt and then control thier actions like a puppet...on a string. Get enough of them in debt...those in key places in government and you run certain facets of the government. War is one gauranteed way to keep a government in debt...social programs is another.
The banks are then in a position to have advanced information through government contacts as to who or what is upcoming in government and a nation and thereby be positioned to make a profit in these new conditions...just by merely having advanced informations.
Once the Government is in the control of the money changers..you now have the public under this system too. You now institute programs to educate the public into accepting this system as normal while you fleece the government and people for your purposes..even unto starting wars for profit. The government and peoples of this nation become the tool for your profit as a money changer.

By the way...this is a system...a olde ancient system ..complete with a religion...not one with which the public is much aware..it is not Christianity ..obviously. It must also work behind the scenes where it is not noticed by those it intends to subjugate.

This is why if you read carefully you see things like massive loans to Germany and Japan before WW2 to build up their industries...thier production systems. This is a invesement...by banks and other investors. This involves loans and technology transfers which accompany the loans. This is how the Japanese learned to make aircraft carriers with which they were to attack Pearl Harbor. Only two nations had this technology in any large quantities and for export..The English and the UNited States. These loans gauranteed the aircraft carriers , submarines, battleships aircraft et al..etc etc..used to attack us.
SAme thing with the Germans. It was huge bank loans which allowed Germany to re industrialize after the Hyper inflation which so ruined this country. Loans were made by Wall Street banks and American industries used these loans to transfer technology and know how to Germany. General Electric is one of the companys which transfered electrical assembly technology to re establish German assembly lines to produce war materials. Humble oil..another....which gave the Germans the secret of leaded gasoline..to boost horsepower for gasoline engines..both in vehicles and airplanes. All this is documented if you do the research.
These same banks are today sponsoring in like manner the transfer of huge amounts of technology to Communist China..including nuclear technology. Rocket guidance technology etc etc et al.

You need to remember something about this type of religion not taught in public schools. These institutions/religions....banks ..lending institutions are not loyal to a nation...they are loyal to their profits. They are in fact a government unto themselves. When you fully understand this facet..you know much more than the average Senator...or Congressman.

Christian values are quite different from this scenerio I have painted here.
The counterfit money systems are what allow all the other attacks to go through unhindered...because it allows someone to buy up all the other systems unhindered..to pervert them if necessary. This is done by deficits or the creation of moneys easily..and cheaply. This too can be historically demonstrated.

Thanks,
Orangetom

If you notice closely ..almost universally across this nation...especially in the large cities propertys are being reaccessed at larger rates..or more value...

This is not exactly what it seems.

What is happening is that with the inflationary spending of our government on the war and other programs and give aways ..the value of the American dollar is plummeting to the tank. The doller is not buying what it did say ..5 years ago.

In order to maintain the same purchasing power against a weaker doller the cities and counties in America are having to raise taxes or raise accessments on your propertys in order to obtain weaker dollers to maintain what they did last year. It takes more of these weaker dollars to stay where you are today.
The city and county governments dont dare whisper to you that this is happening but some of them know it. You will be the last ones down the line to know of this occurence.

You know it is true...you dont have more house or property than last year..but are paying out more....often with great resentment.

The correct term for this is" depreciation"...we in our intelligence and high education standards tend to hide this awareness with a fancy word called "inflation."

Depreciation is the loss in purchasing power of your moneys.

Experts hide this with the word inflation so that you will keep your eye on rising prices..not the loss in value of the currency. This is how they reshuffle the cards on you so you dont notice the loss in purchasing power of your dollar.

Inflation/depreciation is disguised taxation...this is work you do for which you get no goods or services..same as a tax. Find a expert who will openly tell you this.

This is very easy to do in a unbacked money system or a system in which you circulate no gold or silver coinage. Especailly if you are using this system to finance public education. YOu teach what you want taught and avoid other topics you dont want taught..like just weights and measures. Just balances and just scales.

This is why Christian values and morals will not be taught in public schools..they do not want Light on this particular situation concerning the money systems. One of the reasons ..and there are others.

Almost all nations on this earth are now running this kind of phoney money system. It is not accidental. It is also not a new idea..it is ancient....technology only helps promote this system faster. By promote I mean control.

THis is part of the war..on Christianity..the war against just weights and measures ..just scales and balances.

Thanks,
Orangetom

so who do you think will win....

the fed?? they want to raise the interest rates, and curb inflation.

or the gov't, who'd rather see inflation climb than see the markets drop like a rock during an election??

the union between the banking world and our government might become a little shaky in the months leading up to nov.

if what you are saying is right, and the bankers are pulling the strings, we could well see major drops in the real estate and stock market. if the government still has some power, we will see higher inflation playing a roll....

but, my bet is that no one now has the power to pull the string tight enough to make much difference, and well, that's even more dangerous that the first two examples.

thus there's an urgent need for war!! we are so much in a pre world war two condition!!

unfortunately, this time around, we have a rather large portion of the population depending on that government sponsored security net, or they are really quite deep into debt. I'm afraid that those who wouldn't be able to pull themselves out of debt within a few months time could be classed with those in the security net, who I already have written off as furture slaves. nice cheap labor that will enable our manufacturers to compete with china's slave labor!!

I'm in my mid 40's, my parents would have never allowed themselves to be so far in debt, my grandmother would have considered it quite sinful to be!! me, I would rather starve, or die from some easily curable disease than to owe that much money....

the social safety net, although allowing many to live a more comfortable life (which was a benefit to society) has also enabled companies to focus more on their profits while totally disragarding the needs of many of their employees and in cases such as healthcare and energy, their customers needs. after all, why worry if their new rates are unaffordable to some, we have government programs to help them out!!

we are about one or two steps from seeing the enslavement of alot of american people, just so companies can have larger profits, and stocks can have a higher value...

and our fake economy can go chugging along!!

I agree..we are in a pre war condition..have been for over 15 years now...it has taken this long to get the players into position.

Most havent a clue that the war has not acutally started as of yet. THey believe the news that we are actually in a war.

Agree..on the debt part..so many are in the hole so deep. People with the ARM type mortgages are already feeling the game closing in on them. I knew this about adjustable rate mortgages when I first heard of the concept. It is a very nice way to repossess and resell property ..quick turnovers when the rates change.
Just as these systems have consumed governments they must now consume the citizenry to keep their treadmill going.

THe banking system grants the government carte blanche to make deficit loans to put more moneys into circulation to cover thier expenses..and in doing so court favored buisnesses...verses unfavored buisnesses..world wide..not just nationally.
This suits the banks just fine because they can dictate who gets in government positions from various think tanks and universitys.
This suits Government fine because they can steal out of our economy without being seen by the public in the manner as would be necessary if they had to do it by direct taxation. By direct taxation the public would have rebelled long ago and kicked them out.

The vested intrest for both banking system and government is continued inflation/depreciation until the money is worthless and a new government then takes over. Problem historically is that very seldome is it recorded that the new government is any better than the olde one. Mostly just a continuation of the same olde scams.

The main example I can think of historically where a government came to power on the heels of inflation is the United States with the Articles of Confederation and the failed Continental Notes leading to inflation. Out of this came the US Constitution and the Coinage Act of April 2, 1792. YOu see how long that one lasted before the money powers came back in and started running the same olde scams. They started running a defacto Federal Reserve Bank called the United States Bank....which became official in 1913. It took that long to solidify it. Since that time it went down hill..from the loss of the gold coins in 1933 to the silver in 1968. You see what has happened to our moneys value since 1968.
The US Constitution is one of the few success stories of a government coming to power after a hyper inflation where crooks carte blanche did not move in a take over..though it was a constant struggle to keep them at bay till 1913. Where would we be at if it had happened in the early 1800s?

THe key to this change is to go back to the bi metalic standard of gold and silver...something the banking system will never allow. Any nation which declares its independence from the banking system in this manner will find itself immediately at war with the banking powers and the nations which are the bootlackys for the banking powers. The United States is currently one of these bootlacky nations for the banking powers. We lick boots when required..with our finest blood.

Sorry to be so depressing but this is what the history tells me.
Gotta go...things to do around here.
More later..

Thanks,
Orangetom