Religion is not the big killer. Masonry is.

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posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 02:15 PM
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Originally posted by Hobbes

Originally posted by pepsi78
How many share you view on the bible from the masonic ranks?
Do you all sustain the same?


I am within the 'Masonic ranks', and I do not share his view on the Bible.

To me, the Bible is a creation of generations of men and politics, a (poorly edited and contradictory) collection of stories, fables, and anecdotes, and a great look at how organized religion has been used as a historical political motivational tool for the unwashed masses.

Does that opinion make me evil? Not quite...

Does that opinion mean that Masonry is incompatible with 'crestinity'? No. It is *my* opinion. *Many* of my brothers have religious views that are different than mine. And that's the beauty of it... we treasure faith. The specifics of what or whom you put your faith in are up to each brother.


I dont really care if that is your opinion, it does not bother me at all, but making this statements makes you contrary to it, not that I would invoke that you are wrong , this is not up for discusion now, but in contradiction, there for you are in contradiction good or bad, so masonary is in contradiction with the bible.





posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 02:16 PM
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Originally posted by pepsi78
No it's used, by masons, by sites created by masons, saying it's not used would be a lie, furtehrmore I told you the problem is the bible and it does not fit with anithing you say.
Where is the paragraf sustaining all those simbols
you cant seem to find them?
Ohh that must mean they dont relate to the god from the bible.

You're just rambling, and I can't follow you. If you want a direct answer then ask me a direct question, preferably spelled correctly.

If you just want to rubbish and mock my answers then stop asking questions that appear to be a clumsy attempt to trap me into something, although for the life of me I can't work out what it is exactly.

No-one on this forum can offer anyone proof of anything that will satisfy everyone. If you aren't interested in my 14 years experience of Freemasonry then say so. A little bit of honesty wouldn't go amiss here.



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 02:21 PM
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The direct aswer is , where is the piramid with the eye, in the bible, where is the interpretation of the sun being the simbol of god?
Please suply a quoting from the bible.



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 02:31 PM
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Originally posted by pepsi78

Originally posted by Trinityman
So, to conclude, the word Altar is not used universally across freemasonry. I have no idea why this information is important to you, but there it is.

No it's used, by masons, by sites created by masons, saying it's not used would be a lie,


This has already been answered... some jurisdictions (mine, for instance) have items in them called 'altars'. Some do not. Religious importance is not attached to them, regardless of what they are called.

If you ask a question, but are unwilling to listen to the response, this is a bit one sided, no?


Originally posted by pepsi78
furtehrmore I told you the problem is the bible and it does not fit with anithing you say.
Where is the paragraf sustaining all those simbols
you cant seem to find them?
Ohh that must mean they dont relate to the god from the bible.


The problem is that you don't understand the concept of universal symbolism.

The book of sacred law that my religious views hold as holy state that god is a carrot, and should only be represented as such. Nowhere in the Bible does it state that the carrot is a symbol of god. Therefore, we cannot display a symbol of god that will satisfy each of us *per the letter of our respective books*.

So, we compromise. We settle on a symbol that we agree will represent our individual faiths... something that appears in neither the Bible or my Carrot-Worship Guide... something that is fairly neutral.



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 02:34 PM
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Originally posted by pepsi78
The direct aswer is , where is the piramid with the eye, in the bible, where is the interpretation of the sun being the simbol of god?
Please suply a quoting from the bible.

1. The pyramid is not a masonic symbol
2. The Eye is a SYMBOLIC representation of the omniscient Lord
3. I'm not aware of the Sun used in freemasonry as symbolic of God. Some representations of the all-seeing eye are surrounded in a Glory, but that's not quite the same thing.

Now tell me why you want to know these things. What are you trying to find out?



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 02:40 PM
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Originally posted by pepsi78
I dont really care if that is your opinion, it does not bother me at all, but making this statements makes you contrary to it, not that I would invoke that you are wrong , this is not up for discusion now,


Well, actually... you asked if all Masons shared a particular view. So does it matter, or doesn't it...?


Originally posted by pepsi78
but in contradiction, there for you are in contradiction good or bad, so masonary is in contradiction with the bible.


Ok, simple high-school logic for you:

If (Hobbes' views = Masonry's views) and (Hobbes' views != Christian views) then (Masonry's views != Christian views)

Sure, I'll agree with that. That would make perfect sense... except that my views are different than the other masons on this forum, nevermind organization wide. Therefore, the first statement is not true, and therefore you can't use such logic to say that Masonry conflicts with Christianity.



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 02:54 PM
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This has already been answered... some jurisdictions (mine, for instance) have items in them called 'altars'. Some do not. Religious importance is not attached to them, regardless of what they are called.

So why do you call them altars? what is the reason? It does not matter that some do and some dont it matters why those who have it, have it at all.
So why have an altar if it's not religios.
Religios importance is not atach to them, what did you do striped them of their name? you are beating around the bush with this quote, an altar by definition is what it is.


Originally posted by pepsi78
furtehrmore I told you the problem is the bible and it does not fit with anithing you say.
Where is the paragraf sustaining all those simbols
you cant seem to find them?
Ohh that must mean they dont relate to the god from the bible.




The problem is that you don't understand the concept of universal symbolism.

The bible........
Do not make idols for yourselves, nor set up carved images, nor erect stone sculptures for the people to worship, for I am the Lord your God



So, we compromise. We settle on a symbol that we agree will represent our individual faiths... something that appears in neither the Bible or my Carrot-Worship Guide... something that is fairly neutral.


if you look at the bible, simbols dont mean anything, there are no such things as simbols in the bible, there never was a simbol representing god in the bible, there for it's imposible to represent the god from the bible by a simbol.

second statement from the bible
You shall not make for yourself any carved image -- any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.

There for.....masonari is in direct contradictionwith the bible.......


The problem is that the bible does not specify any piramids with eyes on top of them, it even condemns it, while in acient egiptian it's specified as horus, the god of the sun.

Furtehr more explenations provided by masons on things on which they represent ingeneral are no where to be found in the bible, unitl there is proof that there is a conection betewn the bible and free masons I have every reason to belive masonary is in contradiction

[edit on 16-6-2006 by pepsi78]



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 02:55 PM
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Originally posted by pepsi78
The direct aswer is , where is the piramid with the eye, in the bible, where is the interpretation of the sun being the simbol of god?
Please suply a quoting from the bible.


It's not in the Bible, it's a cultural issue. Same thing with the ancient Egyptians you're so fond of talking about. Nowhere in the Papyrus of Ani is it written that it was a symbol of Horus either.



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 02:58 PM
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Originally posted by pepsi78

So why do you call them altars? what is the reason?


Why not? Why does it matter to you so much?


The bible........
Do not make idols for yourselves, nor set up carved images, nor erect stone sculptures for the people to worship, for I am the Lord your God


We're not talking about idols and worshiping rocks, we're talking about employing symbolism. You seem to have a hard time distinguishing the difference for some reason.



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 02:58 PM
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I just posted up why it can not be what you keep saying.



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 03:01 PM
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Originally posted by pepsi78
I just posted up why it can not be what you keep saying.


No, you didn't. In reality, we just posted why it cannot be what you're saying. Your facts are screwy, your logic is nil, and your posts are all but unreadable rantings. I can't even believe I'm still posting to this thread!




posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 03:06 PM
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Pepsi

I think you've got this 'graven image' thing a bit mixed up. The Lord doesn't want us worshipping the item itself. Reminders of the Lord are fine, right? How else can you explain the crucifix?

Freemasons do not worship a picture of an eye any more than they might worship a picture of Jesus Christ at home. In fact the only thing a freemason will worship is his God. In my case, and the vast majority of freemasons in the Western World, that's Jesus Christ. I am thinking of Him all the time, but only actively worship Him at church, or with friends.

I don't worship him at work, down the pub, at a football match, in a restaurant or at lodge. I've prayed to Him in all these places, but not worshipped. Sorry if you don't approve of that



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 03:12 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light
I can't even believe I'm still posting to this thread!

Don't 'these people' realize the World Cup is on at the moment! The ENTIRE WORLD stops for the World Cup (apart from the US, obviously
) and right now I ought to be concentrating on a quite exciting Mexico vs Angola game.

But no... I'm on ATS... and quite frankly I'm not too sure what the topic under duscussion is



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 03:15 PM
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Why not? Why does it matter to you so much?

It does, in this world there is a reason for everything.
I guess you cant shake it.
Find a plausible explenation why there are altars inlodges.
With no explenation it's just hard to prove the contrary.
I see no explenation.


Do not make idols for yourselves, nor set up carved images, nor erect stone sculptures for the people to worship, for I am the Lord your God



We're not talking about idols and worshiping rocks, we're talking about employing symbolism. You seem to have a hard time distinguishing the difference for some reason.

The problem is that the god from the bible can not be represented by masons because he can not be represented by simbols either if you worship them or just make them as a representation of god, god does not have a simbol, if you can find it for me in the bible I will gladly look it up.



[edit on 16-6-2006 by pepsi78]



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 03:19 PM
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The problem is that the god from the bible can not be represented by masons because he can not be represented by simbols


Sure he can. The cross is a Christian symbol of God. So is the dove.



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 03:23 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light


The problem is that the god from the bible can not be represented by masons because he can not be represented by simbols


Sure he can. The cross is a Christian symbol of God. So is the dove.

Show it to mi in the bible
prove it with the bible.
There is nosuch thing nada, nothing, zero, take the bible and see that I'm right.
the cross is descriebd as a torture instrument and that is about it.
There is no refernce that you have to worship it or make it a simbol of god.
With out any clames to your side of the argument I dont see how this will work, since the bible is the only world of god then I dont see how.



[edit on 16-6-2006 by pepsi78]

[edit on 16-6-2006 by pepsi78]



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 03:30 PM
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The Pope isn't in the Bible either. But I take it you and I can agree that he exists?

[edit on 16-6-2006 by Trinityman]



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 03:34 PM
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Originally posted by pepsi78
The bible........
Do not make idols for yourselves, nor set up carved images, nor erect stone sculptures for the people to worship, for I am the Lord your God


That's setting off the Catholic School alarm in me, so let's see what the Bible actually says on the subject, verbatim:


Excerpt from Wikipedia
God spoke all these words, saying: I am the Lord your God,who brought you out of Egypt, from the place of slavery. Do not have any other gods before Me. Do not represent [such] gods by any carved statue or picture of anything in the heaven above, on the earth below, or in the water below the land. Do not bow down to [such gods] or worship them. I am God your Lord, a God who demands exclusive worship.


Hmm, looks like the Bible allows for images and symbols of God... just not of other gods. (Kinda has to be that way, or else every church in existance is sinning). So, if I'm Christian, and that all-seeing eye represents God to me, I'm kosher by Bible guidelines.

Regardless, I can't say I've ever worshipped any object in lodge.


Originally posted by pepsi78
if you look at the bible, simbols dont mean anything, there are no such things as simbols in the bible, there never was a simbol representing god in the bible, there for it's imposible to represent the god from the bible by a simbol.


So, why aren't you up in arms about Christians that use a cross-symbol to represent God, since logically that can't represent the god of the Bible?


Originally posted by pepsi78
The problem is that the bible does not specify any piramids with eyes on top of them, it even condemns it


Where in the Bible does it condemn pyramids with eyes on top. Chapter and paragraph, please. The commandments just say not to make images of 'other gods'.

Regardless, none of the lodges I've visited have pyramids with eyes in them.


Originally posted by pepsi78
while in acient egiptian it's specified as horus, the god of the sun.


And the swastika was a symbol of good luck and prosperity. Different people can have different meanings for a symbol.


Originally posted by pepsi78
Furtehr more explenations provided by masons on things on which they represent ingeneral are no where to be found in the bible


See my Carrot-Diety example, above. To remain a non-sectarian institution, we need to represent individual faith in a neutral manner.

Actually, there are a large number of Biblical symbols in our 'culture'. And in my jurisdiction, quite a few Biblical passages are used in our rituals. In fact, the core of our 'doctrine' is based upon a story right out of the Bible. Christianity has had a very significant role in the way we are as an institution, regardless.


Originally posted by pepsi78
unitl there is proof that there is a conection betewn the bible and free masons I have every reason to belive masonary is in contradiction


Why would there be? We're not a Christian organization.

That said, I think we've pointed out that we are *not* in contradiction to anything dictated in the Bible.



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 03:35 PM
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Originally posted by Trinityman
The United States isn't in the Bible either. But I take it you and I can agree that it exists?

I can see your responce is more and more low, of course without any contra argument I would do the same thing, the fact that united states is not in the bible is because united states does not refer to god personaly , it's not about god so why should it show up in the bible.
You can pray to god, that is specified in the bible, you can falow the 10 commandmends , that is also specified there, and god said worship united states
because it's me, your hilarius.
I think you've been reading too much alebrt pike, time to read the bible.
I asure you , even if you dont belive in it, it's a fascinating book.

[edit on 16-6-2006 by pepsi78]



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 03:40 PM
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Originally posted by Trinityman
The Pope isn't in the Bible either. But I take it you and I can agree that he exists?


Funny you should mention that... I just overheard a very convincing argument that the pope is anti-catholic.

I suggest that if this discussion goes in that direction, we all agree to just let it go, and go watch the game.





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