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The Implications of John 8

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posted on Apr, 1 2006 @ 01:34 PM
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KJV
8:22
Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
8:23
And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
8:25
Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.


It is clear from this that the Jews did not accept Jesus as the Christ, the Messiah.


KJV
8:39
They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
8:40
But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
8:41
Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
8:42
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
8:43
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
8:45
And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.


Jesus is clearly questioning the mandate of the Jews and their covenant here. He tells them they are not of God, the Father, but of the devil, the liar.

Were the Israelites, the original Hebrews, corrupted somehow during the first captivity, or afterwards? Was the mandate, the covenant of Moses with God, usurped by this corruption, if it occurred?


KJV
John 7:19
Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?




posted on Apr, 1 2006 @ 02:15 PM
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I think he was saying to them that they were not the children of Abraham because Abraham kept God's word by following the biblical laws, knowing that it would lead to heaven., or "if you actually want to tie yourself to Abraham's actions, then you would honor and respect me like Abraham did. Since you don't honor and respect me like Abraham did, then you are the children of the devil."

The church at that time was run by the Sanhedrin and it became a matter of rote or dogma for them to follow the laws of the church to be a christian.

Abraham knew that it was God's laws, and to abide by them would reward him. The church just followed it as a doctrine, or a way of life, and the belief wasn't there for the afterlife.

Does that make sense?

JDub



posted on Apr, 1 2006 @ 02:24 PM
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Are you saying that, at the time, there was just lip service paid to the covenant? That is kind of what I am getting at, I guess. Jesus was pointing out the disparity between the actions of the Jews and their purported beliefs. He was calling them liars and fakes.

Btw, I just had split pea soup for lunch! I'm whirling in peas, or vice versa, actually.

[edit on 1-4-2006 by Icarus Rising]



posted on Apr, 1 2006 @ 03:24 PM
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Originally posted by Icarus Rising
Are you saying that, at the time, there was just lip service paid to the covenant? That is kind of what I am getting at, I guess. Jesus was pointing out the disparity between the actions of the Jews and their purported beliefs. He was calling them liars and fakes.

Good observation. But the Jews of that time were far from 'lip service' only. If they had been, Jesus would not have gone on trial for blasphemy (something originally outlined in the Mosaic laws).

The problem wasn't that they were without the law--but rather that they had grown overly attentive to the law given to Moses. As complicated as those laws seem to us today, reading Leviticus--by the time Jesus lived, the Sanhedrin had convoluted and complicated the original law with so many minute details and sub-clause type additions that they had another book to contain these things, altogether. The Jewish religion today is more of a reflection on those laws than the original Mosaic laws. They have the Talmud and the Mishna--both very weighty tomes.

Remember how the Israelites were punished for their repeated offenses of idolatry? In Jesus's time, they no doubt felt sure they had finally overcome that penchant, and certainly it would appear that they had--no graven images, etc...

But they had become idolaters in another, more insidious manner: they worshipped their body of laws and their temple instead of God. That is why Jesus said what he did and also why he prophesied about the impending destruction of the temple in 70AD.

Remember the Israelites wandered in the desert for 40 years--for doubting God would ensure they prevailed over the giants they had seen in the land of Canaan on their scouting mission? The 40 years between the crucifixion and the destruction of the temple was also a period of testing like that earlier time under Moses. The test was--would the Jews of the day trust God instead of the Sanhedrin and recognize Christ as the one God had sent? Or would they continue to sacrifice (needlessly) in the temple twice a day and shun and persecute those Jews who, to them, seemed to be apostates of the worst kind, abandoning the law in favor of following the teachings of Christ.

Also--to claim Abraham as one's father had a deeper meaning that was just beginning to reveal itself at that time--it was about faith instead of law. God did not promise the Messiah conditionally as part of a covenant--he promised it of his free-will, to Abraham, on Mt. Moriah when Abraham did not withhold his only son from the LORD. That Messiah came and then entered a new covenant with those who accepted who he was, but his coming was a promise, not a conditional reward.


Btw, I just had split pea soup for lunch! I'm whirling in peas, or vice versa, actually.

By that, do you mean 'peeing in whirls?'



posted on Apr, 1 2006 @ 03:32 PM
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Queen said what I was trying to say much more eloquently than what I did.

They were "liars and fakes" in that they believed in the laws more than why the laws were created.

Yep yep!

and for QUEEN: He/she was making a play-on-words on my signature line



posted on Apr, 1 2006 @ 03:59 PM
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Originally posted by BlueTileSpook
and for QUEEN: He/she was making a play-on-words on my signature line


Oh.


I guess I need to pay more attention. :shk:



posted on Apr, 1 2006 @ 04:52 PM
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It seems also to me like they applied the law as they saw fit to their benefit, not necessarily to the benefit of the people as was originally intended by Moses.

The 40 years in the desert served an additional intent for Moses, in my reading of the OT. It served to allow the old generation of warriors, that brought with them the now unacceptable practices of the Egyptians, to pass away, and a new generation steeped in the values of the new covenant to take their place.

Oh, and by vice versa I meant the peas are whirling in me.



posted on Apr, 2 2006 @ 11:48 PM
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Originally posted by Icarus Rising
It seems also to me like they applied the law as they saw fit to their benefit, not necessarily to the benefit of the people as was originally intended by Moses.

Intended by God, I thought. But yes, I agree.


It served to allow the old generation of warriors, that brought with them the now unacceptable practices of the Egyptians, to pass away, and a new generation steeped in the values of the new covenant to take their place.

That is an excellent point, Icarus Rising--one I hadn't really thought of until now. And see how that purpose, too, was repeated from 30 to 70 AD? Kind of a changing of the guard, during which those who had no true faith in God died out or were killed (sadly in the Jewish revolt this is what happened to many that would not flee and so stayed in Jerusalem only to come to a bitter and grisly end, usually).


Oh, and by vice versa I meant the peas are whirling in me.


Hee hee.



posted on Apr, 3 2006 @ 01:05 AM
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Originally posted by Icarus Rising

The 40 years in the desert served an additional intent for Moses, in my reading of the OT. It served to allow the old generation of warriors, that brought with them the now unacceptable practices of the Egyptians, to pass away, and a new generation steeped in the values of the new covenant to take their place.


This is a point so many who see God as a bully don't understand, I'm glad you raised it IR.

As all die once, and all will be resurrected for their lot to be perfectly weighed and balanced, removing those who know no better but to create more strife for future generations (when it's God doing the pruning), untill that "Perfect" judgement, is neither cruel or unjust.

Too many New Age Peace Freaks focus on a battle here, mass deaths there, and don't read and compare all in context, for the warnings of how to avoid worse and countless other lessons.



posted on Apr, 3 2006 @ 09:41 AM
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Intended by God


Very much so, yes. Handed down by Moses, I should have said.

After a bit of searching Deuteronomy, I found the passage I referenced in my last post in Joshua 5.



5:6 For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD: unto whom the LORD sware that he would not shew them the land, which the LORD sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey.


I also find John 15:2 to be very relevant, especially to me in my own life. I'm not so much preaching from a pulpit here as sharing how I relate to my own reading of the scriptures.



The words of Jesus Christ according to John the Apostle

15:2
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.


That's just how it is.



posted on Apr, 3 2006 @ 09:53 AM
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That is why Jesus said what he did and also why he prophesied about the impending destruction of the temple in 70AD.


Did he really? Or was it just an addition to the NT by Mark? The gospel was written around the same time as the destruction of the temple, it would be rather easy to just add in after the destruction that Jesus predicted it. To lie and make it appear that Jesus was a prophet. One thing we have to remember, NOTHING of Jesus appears untill atleast 30 years after his death. That's a long time to remember something word for word. How many people here in this thread can remember a conversation they had with their mom on March 24th 2003? Heck, I'm lucky to remember word for word a conversation from even just yesterday. Let alone 30 years or more in the past.



posted on Apr, 3 2006 @ 10:10 AM
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Originally posted by Prot0n
One thing we have to remember, NOTHING of Jesus appears untill atleast 30 years after his death


Really? Jesus is written of all through the bible, even BEFORE His birth.

Genesis 49:10 (that's a good starting place)

But remember...The bible won't reveal anything to you as it IS sealed from those who choose NOT to believe!



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