Well, definitive proof that prayer does not help the sick...

Something I have known ever since I shed the infection known as religion many years ago. Prayer does not help the sick, it’s now been proven.

Even as a person of no organized faith I believed that at the very least the “positive” feelings of prayer may make a difference. People tend to be healthier if they are in better spirits. But even that is not the case.

So when somebody is sick, you aren’t helping them one little iota by praying for them. I think its YOU who gain from the prayer…not the target of your prayers.

Prayer dose not heal

“CHICAGO (Reuters) - A study of more than 1,800 patients who underwent heart bypass surgery has failed to show that prayers specially organized for their recovery had any impact, researchers said Thursday.

In fact, the study found some of the patients who knew they were being prayed for did worse than others who were only told they might be prayed for -- though those who did the study said they could not explain why.

The patients in the study at six U.S. hospitals included 604 who were actually prayed for after being told they might or might not be; another 597 patients who were not prayed for after being told they might or might not be; and a group of 601 who were prayed for and told they would be the subject of such prayer.

The praying was done by members of three Christian groups in monasteries and elsewhere -- two Catholic and one Protestant -- who were given written prayers and the first name and initial of the last name of the prayer subjects. The prayers started on the eve of or day of surgery and lasted for two weeks.”

Some even reported they were feeling worse!!! Prayer HURTS people!!

So please: Don’t ever pray for me, I don’t need it and apparently its wasted breath..

1.) A "failure to show" something is not "difinitive proof" against it, as you have stated.

2.) Prayer and religion aren't necessarily connected. Religion is an invention of man. Prayer is between a man and his God.

3.) Science cannot be used to prove something about religion any more than religion can be used to prove something about science. Science is about facts. Religion is about faith.

4.) From your source:

"One caveat is that with so many individuals receiving prayer from friends and family, as well as personal prayer, it may be impossible to disentangle the effects of study prayer from background prayer," Manoj Jain of Baptist Memorial Hospital, Memphis, Tennessee, another author of the report.

The authors said one possible limitation to their study was that those doing the special praying had no connection or acquaintance with the subjects of their prayer, which would not usually be the norm.

"Private or family prayer is widely believed to influence recovery from illness, and the results of this study do not challenge this belief," the report concluded.

I read somewhere, (can't remember the website but shouldn't be hard to find something similar on it) that prayer is about as effective as the placebo effect. I'm not sure if I'd put much faith into prayer curing a life threatening disease regardless of the 50/50 placebo effect chance of it appearing to work.

I dont even know why this is being debated. How could it possibly help someone to sit and talk to yourself? As much as you would like to beleive some imaginary figure is going to solve all of your problems for you, at some point you have to say "hey this just isn't working" and then possibly do something meaningful and worthwhile.

Originally posted by Prot0n
I'm not sure if I'd put much faith into prayer curing a life threatening disease

Prayer takes faith. I've actually seen prayer in action from a family member and a minute later her prayer was definitely fulfilled, even I was astounded by the works of our Lord that day!

There is no one study that is ever going to convince me that praying cannot help someone we love. Prayer takes three things: Belief. Faith. Love. That's all you need. So if there was no other alternative for someone that I knew, then you can bet I'd be down on my knees praying for them without hesitation but we need not forget that God has a plan for all of us and sometimes His plan can override what we "want"-so I don't have an expectation that when I pray it will be fulfilled!
Mags

Prayer takes faith. I've actually seen prayer in action from a family member and a minute later her prayer was definitely fulfilled, even I was astounded by the works of our Lord that day!

What was the problem with your family member? Can you explain more about it?

There is no one study that is ever going to convince me that praying cannot help someone we love.

Of course not. Despite the amount of evidence against monotheism, or any *theism, it's quiet hard to shake one of their belief in such. It's much easier to believe in a happy place.

Prayer takes three things: Belief. Faith. Love.

I understand that, but prayer doesn't work in alot of cases. Medically or otherwise. Simply too much to list here. There is a direct correlation between prayer being just as effective as the placebo effect. It's not that bad of a thing, but to put all your faith into it as some people do can be rather harmfull. Be it yourself or a loved one. Imagine if doctor's did nothing but pray instead of actually learning howto cure and fix problems. We'd still be having 30-40 year lifespans. Not something I look forward too.

so I don't have an expectation that when I pray it will be fulfilled!

Why not? God (Or Jesus, forget which), says all prayer's will get answered. You tell that to the religous folk who were praying when they died in 9/11.

Originally posted by daedalas
How could it possibly help someone to sit and talk to yourself? As much as you would like to beleive some imaginary figure is going to solve all of your problems for you, at some point you have to say "hey this just isn't working" and then possibly do something meaningful and worthwhile.

I think it may help the people who are praying quite a bit. And without KNOWING everything there is to know about the Universe, spirituality, the paranormal and "God" (whatever that is - or IF it is) then I don't understand how you can say that someone putting healing energy out into the ethers definitely doesn't help the situation.

I don't pray myself, but I would never assume that those who do are just 'talking to themselves'.

If that's the case, then anyone who practices any kind of religion or believes in a God, is just living in an imaginary world. And that's certainly possible, but I don't think any of us knows the answer to that.

Why not? God (Or Jesus, forget which), says all prayer's will get answered. You tell that to the religous folk who were praying when they died in 9/11.

Maybe the answer just wasn't the one they wanted or expected. Maybe the answer was NO!

Your anger over "something" is evident just by your two responses I've read here in this post and in another religious area.

It isn't relavent the "reason" the person in my family was praying as that is not what was being debated in the original topic. I gave an alternative- and quite valid in my opinion- reason why I believe prayer does work. What does it matter whether it comes from just me or Reuters?

Prayer, for me isn't something I'd call a happy place. Generally, when I've prayed it was because I was NOT in a happy place, be it physically, spiritually or emotionally.

Sure prayer doesn't *seem* work in a lot of cases but medical technology doesn't work on a lot of people either. Some people can have chemotherepy and thrive and live long healthy lives, some die.

I think believing that prayer is harmful is even more foolish than believing it doesn't even work. You have taken one piece of someones little study and gone haywire with it. This is the first time in my life I've ever heard that prayer can cause harm, ever!

The reason I don't have an expectation each time I pray is because I keep in mind that God has a plan for us all. What "I" may want for someone or even myself, may be totally different to what God has in store, down the road. Plus God has His time and we have ours. I may pray for something to happen and it indeed may happen, but not tomorrow or next month or even next year but eventually, my prayer may be answered if that is what the Lord Himself wants. And when I do pray, I'll state always towards the end of my prayer that "if this is what YOU want Lord" because my needs and wants and desires are not going to always be His. And that's pretty much what I would say to those who lost people whether it's 9/11 or in some hospital bed or anywhere else...

Your anger over "something" is evident just by your two responses I've read here in this post and in another religious area.

As I stated, the anger stems from the ignorance, arrogance, and the hypocrits. Those who preach "love" and practice the opposite. Basically, love those of the same belief and tell the rest they're heathen satan worshippers. Or those who enjoy twisting the bible for their own purposes. Another thing that really irritates me are those religous people who don't even know their bible. It's quiet aggravating holding a discussion with someone who will sit there and deny that a particular verse exist's even when shown which verse and where it is. The "anger" isn't towards individual people themselve's, just the whole belief system.

It isn't relavent the "reason" the person in my family was praying as that is not what was being debated in the original topic. I gave an alternative- and quite valid in my opinion- reason why I believe prayer does work. What does it matter whether it comes from just me or Reuters?

Sorry for being curious. Next time you post a vauge statement I won't ask for a clearer explanation!

Prayer, for me isn't something I'd call a happy place. Generally, when I've prayed it was because I was NOT in a happy place, be it physically, spiritually or emotionally.

Never did state that prayer was about a happy place.

Sure prayer doesn't *seem* work in a lot of cases but medical technology doesn't work on a lot of people either. Some people can have chemotherepy and thrive and live long healthy lives, some die.

There's reason's for that. Ask a doctor.

I think believing that prayer is harmful is even more foolish than believing it doesn't even work. You have taken one piece of someones little study and gone haywire with it. This is the first time in my life I've ever heard that prayer can cause harm, ever!

Not saying prayer itself and of itself is harmfull. Why do people take thing's out of context? Putting faith in prayer working over medical technology CAN BE harmfull. Prayer isn't a "cure all" thing. Prayer work's just as effectively as the placebo effect.

And that's pretty much what I would say to those who lost people whether it's 9/11 or in some hospital bed or anywhere else...

I honestly do have a problem with that mode of thinking, but that's a tale for another time.

I don't think I'm being ignorant, arrogant or hypocritical. And I don't think it's appropriate to insult or name call as we are all adults here (i think) and I have no problems continuing to answer you so long as you cease with that behaviour.

Of course not. It's much easier to believe in a happy place.

You actually did basically say prayer was a happy place.

Why is it that we expect a "yes" or "no" answer to prayers? I think there is a third answer that God gives us when we pray:

"WAIT."

We tend to ask (or pray) for immediate healing, but I don't think that is what God has in mind for us. Isn't this kind of the lesson that God taught using Job in the bible? Just wait and I will take care of you?

We can't know sweet without sour, joy without sorrow or peace without disruption.

I think that God allows us (not forces us) to get "bumped around" with illnesses or injuries to make our lives more complete. It allows us more understanding of how fragile life is, it forces us to deal with difficulty and challenges, and it allows us to identify and forge relationships with those around us that have gone through similar things. We just don't see that it is okay to get "hurt" in the short term, we want to have pretty much of a stress-free, problem-free life, and we cry out to God when a situation pops up and ask him to solve it all right now.

To me, prayer has two sides to it. The person praying can have 100% belief that the person for will be healed, but if the person on the receiving end doesn't believe in the power of God to heal, then I don't think the prayer for healing will be answered with a "yes" from God unless it would plant a seed in the sick person's heart or life. There may be a miracle healing for the sick person who doesn't believe, but I think you have to have a fertile garden to raise a crop.

JDub

What's the need to take what I'm saying out of context?

I don't think I'm being ignorant, arrogant or hypocritical. And I don't think it's appropriate to insult or name call as we are all adults here (i think) and I have no problems continuing to answer you so long as you cease with that behaviour.

I never did say YOU in particular, this should have been quiet clear when I said..

"The "anger" isn't towards individual people themselve's, just the whole belief system."

Perhaps I should also state that I also have a problem with people who lack reading comprehension. As your also having a wrong impression here as well.

You actually did basically say prayer was a happy place.

This is what I said, in full.

Of course not. Despite the amount of evidence against monotheism, or any *theism, it's quiet hard to shake one of their belief in such. It's much easier to believe in a happy place.

This is about the belief system itself. Not of prayer. No where in that statement is prayer itself mentioned as a "happy place".

Perhaps I won't have such a problem with religous people if they could comprehend what they're reading and learn to quit taking thing's out of context. You and Sun Matrix would get along quiet well.

That was an amazing post that I could have in no way worded better myself.

We certainly need to keep in mind that His time is not the same as our time, so a little patience could be learned from prayer that's for sure.

mags

You keep stating over and over that "people" are taking things out of context, maybe you could try a little clarification when you use a particular persons quotes. I know that when I quote someone here I'm directly speaking to them about what they've stated. So why confuse it by speaking of many others without clarification on that? Who are the "those" you are referring to? I apologise but I thought you were talking about religious people or believers of prayer and because I happen to consider myself one of "those" I thought you were insulting me.

Personally, I don't feel it's even necessary to insult anyone here or any "group". Your gonna find it hard to get your questions answered if you do that. And if you have anger towards an entire belief system then I can't possibly help you can I? You've generalised and summed up a certain group and then project hostility toward anyone who comes close to be a member of that group because of your own refusal to listen or attempt to understand even though I'm sensing that you want to?

Perhaps it might be easier if you tried understanding the person you were typing to rather than catagorizing them in some "group" you call "those".

You keep stating over and over that "people" are taking things out of context, maybe you could try a little clarification when you use a particular persons quotes. I know that when I quote someone here I'm directly speaking to them about what they've stated. So why confuse it by speaking of many others without clarification on that? Who are the "those" you are referring to? I apologise but I thought you were talking about religious people or believers of prayer and because I happen to consider myself one of "those" I thought you were insulting me.

I'm sorry, but I don't know how I can get any clearer then

"Of course not. Despite the amount of evidence against monotheism, or any *theism, it's quiet hard to shake one of their belief in such. It's much easier to believe in a happy place."

I honestly thought it was pretty clear that I wasn't speaking of just YOU alone.

Personally, I don't feel it's even necessary to insult anyone here or any "group". Your gonna find it hard to get your questions answered if you do that. And if you have anger towards an entire belief system then I can't possibly help you can I? You've generalised and summed up a certain group and then project hostility toward anyone who comes close to be a member of that group because of your own refusal to listen or attempt to understand even though I'm sensing that you want to?

I scoff at religous belief's just as much as religous people scoff at scientific fact's. Two wrong's don't make a right, right? Most religous people I've had dealing's with associate people like me as immoral, or incapable of morality. They also associate people like me as heathen satanist's bound for hell. Most if not all may look down on another religous belief system, but think even worse of those without. This is part of the problem I have, and of course I generalize the whole population as being this way as it's been my ONLY dealing with them. I know of no other experience with a religous person. I've yet to meet a religous person who doesn't hold certain attitude's that I myself consider as wrong, such as your attitude towards gay's.

Perhaps it might be easier if you tried understanding the person you were typing to rather than catagorizing them in some "group" you call "those".

This could be said the same in regards to scientific reasoning. Or hell, towards those without faith. I'm NOT saying you in particular, I'm just saying in GENERAL. But as I've stated previously, the reason I generalize is very good imo. Atleast untill I can meet a religous person who doesn't fall under those principle's I've previously mentioned.

Originally posted by Prot0n
I read somewhere, (can't remember the website but shouldn't be hard to find something similar on it) that prayer is about as effective as the placebo effect. I'm not sure if I'd put much faith into prayer curing a life threatening disease regardless of the 50/50 placebo effect chance of it appearing to work.

This was the first time I'd read anything of yours posted here on ATS/BTS, as for one, I don't post a whole lot anymore, so how would I have known that in other places on ATS/BTS you insulted groups of people who believe a certain way?

Now that we have that cleared up, I hope. Then can I ask you this? What purpose or what intention do you have coming into a thread such as this and debating or attemting to, with people you have labled as ignorant, arrogant and hypocritical? So that you can feel better about your assumption? Or so that you can understand the reasoning why someone such as myself, believes in prayer therefore defends prayer over some Rueters article? If you've already labled me a certain way, without hearing me, then how can I aim to surpass "your" expectation(s)?

Nowhere in my posts ever have I said that "your particular kind" is immoral or heathen satinists bound for hell LOL! Those words would never even come out of my mouth much less out of my thoughts.

You and I, whether "religious" or not are going to disagree. I've disagreed with people in my own family and for the most part our belief system is very close. But I also understand that not everyone can behave as me or believe fully as I do and some people even oppose my beliefs. I don't think they are ignorant for that, I think wow, God created a world of individuals!
Nothing wrong with that!

I believe prayer works because I believe in God and I believe in the Word, I have faith, not as strong as it could be, but not as weak as it used to be and lastly because I love the person I choose to pray for. Jesus prayed all the time and that alone gives me 100% proof that praying is worthwhile and important. For one thing, when I pray I feel closer to God than I did one minute before. I feel a certain bond with Him that no man or angel can sever because it is something sacred between the Lord and I that no man can take from me, even if I was placed in a black hole naked, I'd have my faith and my prayers to get me out. That's just me and that's what makes me different, accept it or don't it's your choice.

[edit on 4/1/06 by magestica]

This was the first time I'd read anything of yours posted here on ATS/BTS, as for one, I don't post a whole lot anymore, so how would I have known that in other places on ATS/BTS you insulted groups of people who believe a certain way?

I'm not sure what your reasoning behind this statement is. I'm assuming this has something to do with the whole scoffing point? If your insisting that I'm again talking to you personally as an indivudual in that statment, please re-read it, in context.

Now that we have that cleared up, I hope. Then can I ask you this? What purpose or what intention do you have coming into a thread such as this and debating or attemting to, with people you have labled as ignorant, arrogant and hypocritical? So that you can feel better about your assumption? Or so that you can understand the reasoning why someone such as myself, believes in prayer therefore defends prayer over some Rueters article? If you've already labled me a certain way, without hearing me, then how can I aim to surpass "your" expectation(s)?

If I'm not mistaken, I gave you a chance to speak. I did ask about your personal experience that you posted about. The vauge statment made didn't help me much at all to understand you in that regard. Kinda pointless to post something so vauge anyways. You achieve nothing by it except more questions on it, but then instead of answering, you decide not too. Your not making any point's worth "hearing out" when they are so vauge.

And no, my whole reason isn't to "feel better" about myself. If that were the case then we should assume this of everyone right? We all debate the issue's at hand on this site. Does this mean we all debate out of an attempt to "feel better" about ourselve's? I come in where I feel or know something is wrong. Such as Sun Matrix's idea of 120 years meaning something that it doesn't mean. Or such as being gay is a sin, or doing "gay things" as being a sin. If you caught someone discriminating against the way people are born, wouldn't you step up and show them how they're being rude and discriminating?

Nowhere in my posts ever have I said that "your particular kind" is immoral or heathen satinists bound for hell LOL! Those words would never even come out of my mouth much less out of my thoughts.

And nowhere in my post's did I say you were. I did say one of my problem's with people was how they take thing's out of context didn't I?

You and I, whether "religious" or not are going to disagree. I've disagreed with people in my own family and for the most part our belief system is very close. But I also understand that not everyone can behave as me or believe fully as I do and some people even oppose my beliefs. I don't think they are ignorant for that, I think wow, God created a world of individuals!

I want you to really think about that statement ...

"I think wow, God created a world of individuals!"

And think about your attitude toward's gay people and the love they show towards each other.

I believe prayer works because I believe in God and I believe in the Word, I have faith, not as strong as it could be, but not as weak as it used to be and lastly because I love the person I choose to pray for. Jesus prayed all the time and that alone gives me 100% proof that praying is worthwhile and important.

As I said, your entitled to your belief's, but I still deem it harmfull to hold faith in prayer as being a "cure all" as some people do (just so we're clear, not saying YOU in particular.) If Jesus said jump off a bridge ... ah nvm... you probably would.

For one thing, when I pray I feel closer to God than I did one minute before. I feel a certain bond with Him that no man or angel can sever because it is something sacred between the Lord and I that no man can take from me, even if I was placed in a black hole naked, I'd have my faith and my prayers to get me out. That's just me and that's what makes me different, accept it or don't it's your choice.

If you were placed in a black hole ... I'm not even gunna go there. It's too easy.

Originally posted by Prot0n
As I stated, the anger stems from the ignorance, arrogance, and the hypocrits. Those who preach "love" and practice the opposite.

SNIP...

Proton -

I think what you have written above is a failure in many of today's churches in my area. In the case of homosexuals and one church in particular in my area, they aren't allowed to walk in the front door, let alone become a participant on Sunday.

Originally posted by ProtOn
Or those who enjoy twisting the bible for their own purposes.

SNIP...

There are churches that do this and there are members that do this. Everyone wants to feel safe and secure in what they believe or want some form of justification for their actions.

BUT

It doesn't go:

God
l
church
l
individual christian

IT IS:

God
l
individual christian
l
church

If a church is being misled by the pastor or priest, then I have no responsibility for their downfall unless I am taking a direct part in that downfall. The bible does teach that I have a responsibility to go to an individual or a church that is not following the teachings of God and tell them how they are not following correctly, but there are stipulations for how to do this.

The important thing is that I have to maintain my relationship with God. I am responsible for doing what God wants me to do.

The church is supposed to help nuture me and bring me together with like-minded individuals, but it is not a supplement for God. If I am not being spiritually fed in a church or I feel that they are not following God's word like they should be, then it is my responsibility to speak my peace (as I said above), and if there are not changes made, then I am to go find another church that IS following God's word.


Don't become so hard in your feelings that you write every church and every christian off as being corrupt or hypocritical.

Cheers,

JDub

It all is beginning to seem quite circular to me, so it's easy for both of us to draw things/words out of context. The point I was trying to make is that you quoted me and then added this response:

As I stated, the anger stems from the ignorance, arrogance, and the hypocrits. Those who preach "love" and practice the opposite. Basically, love those of the same belief and tell the rest they're heathen satan worshippers. Or those who enjoy twisting the bible for their own purposes. Another thing that really irritates me are those religous people who don't even know their bible. It's quiet aggravating holding a discussion with someone who will sit there and deny that a particular verse exist's even when shown which verse and where it is. The "anger" isn't towards individual people themselve's, just the whole belief system.

How, how how could I have known that you were not referring to me?? It wasn't that your response was taken out of context, it was actually given out of context! The first three words you wrote were "as I stated", however this was the first time I had ever seen you state this??

So let's get back on track please and if you do choose to insult, please try not to suggest it toward some unknown group you call "those" because I seriously had no idea who you were referring to. That's what I was trying to relay to you.

I chose not to go into details about the persons prayer because there was no relavence, really. Does it matter what the prayer was???? All that matters is that I happened to witness the prayer "aloud" and then witness the prayer being anwered a moment later, and I was in awe. And being the thread topic, I thought it was valid to share that with you guys. It's not the first time, it's just the most recent experience I've witnessed to an answered prayer.

I did say one of my problem's with people was how they take thing's out of context didn't I?

Again, in order to NOT take what you say out of context can you please elaborate on what "people" you are referring to?? If your referring to me then say so, if you are referring to John Doe or his committee then say so.

And think about your attitude toward's gay people and the love they show towards each other.

What attitude is that? Talk about taking things out of context. Perhaps you need to take a breather and then re-read all the things I've stated in this post topic and the one you are bringing into this one. I think that your shere anger is causing you to jump into something and put words where they are not without actually reading what I'm saying. Then you bring another memeber into it, "Sun Matrix" and again, I have no idea of what you have going on with that person?? So why is it brought up?

I'll ask you again, what is your intention? Do you want to listen to me talk to you about believing prayer and debate with me cordially or do you want to throw a bunch of animosity at me which makes me think "what are you on about"??

Btw, if a voice told me to jump off a bridge, I'd know it wasn't a voice of reason therefore no, I would not heed to it. And I never stated that prayer was a cure all. I will say it again, I will pray and have faith whether my prayers are answered or not. And I will remain adament that my prayers are not in vain and I'll certainly share that view with others, such as you.


[edit on 4/1/06 by magestica]

I think what you have written above is a failure in many of today's churches in my area. In the case of homosexuals and one church in particular in my area, they aren't allowed to walk in the front door, let alone become a participant on Sunday.

See, I don't get that at all. It's not like it's their fault for being born that way. I view such attitude's as ignorant discrimination.

If a church is being misled by the pastor or priest, then I have no responsibility for their downfall unless I am taking a direct part in that downfall. The bible does teach that I have a responsibility to go to an individual or a church that is not following the teachings of God and tell them how they are not following correctly, but there are stipulations for how to do this.

Point taken. While the bible may teach that, how many actually do so? How many people actually question what the church is preaching or the action's of the higher ups in the church? How many "christians" actually follow their god's word to the letter or close to it? Not many, atleast from what I've learned and seen. I actually got into an argument over sabbath and offerings with a couple people. But of course, Jesus changed all that. I smell a verse coming!