Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Well sadly this is wrong. Labour had no real competition in thse years in my opinion. The choice was well it wasn't really a choice. The british
public voted for labour yes which included the id card policy, that in no way means they support that policy. Don't lump the voting for a party
together with that.
- You seem to have missed the idea of how representitive democracy works.
Of course the public vote on an entire program.
If they find something so repellent they refuse to vote for it.
That is how it works.
......and claims about not voting to approve bits of it is simply standard tactics opposing what they do.
However on such well known and very major parts of that program that kind of claim is frankly rather silly.
You missed the point here, yes you need a passport to travel and a license to drive. No one is disputing or against these things here unless i
missed something. The difference is i don't have to have those things, i can opt out. ID will be compulsory and invasive.
- I think you have missed something here.
What the HOL agreed was that from 2010 an ID card will be compulsory with a new passport application.
If everyone did that then we wouldn't have a vote we would just go along with whatever we were told.
- OK, it was a flippant comment, what I meant was that this is a completely legitimate and legal course of action by the duly elected government of
By all means oppose them and it but let's not pretend the sky is falling in with this either.
It's similar to what happened with the tories and their 'poll tax'.
Personally I opposed that one but I paid it, protested it and eventually saw the government change course and replace it.
But it was part of the well known, legitimate and lawful program of government the people elected the tory party in on in 1987.
Back then we too had people leaping to every extreme imaginable. Plenty of people claimed that the electoral databases then being compiled were the
dawning of a fascist intent (if you tried to 'hide' from the tax you lost your vote......and it was people most unlikely to vote tory doing the
I would say you are a labour supporter by nature.
- Actually I was brought up quite tory (so I know the truth about so many of the real underlying attitudes come around 11.30pm at the local tory club
when enough beer and GnT's have been swilled down).
But yes, having suffered almost 20yrs of tory rule as an adult I am indeed a Labour supporter today.
When they came in i didn't know what they were going to do but they messed varies things up.
- We'll get warned if we 'hijack' the thread but feel free to begin a new one detailing these things you believe have been 'messed up'.
I'd love to hear what you think, really.
Gordon Brown has grown our country mostly through loans.
- Not true.
Firstly UK debt is, contrary to certain press reports, actually quite low (current account borrowing - the current approx £36billion figure certain
of tory press fans love to point to - compares very well with our competitors and is historically low as a % of GDP......as is the whole 'national
debt' at the moment).
In todays money Major left government with debt at record levels and accelerating at a record rate (in todays money his current account borrowing
would have been £90billions+ )
I shouldn't have a card to live in this country, my family grew up here and raised me here. It is actually our country not the governments,
democracy for the people and all that. Therefore i shouldn't as i said have a card to let me live here and be criminalised if i don't have
- Er, you don't and you won't.
But besides all that, ID cards in themselves are not anti-democratic.
Germany and Italy have compulsory schemes and are free and democratic countries.
France, Belgium, Greece, Luxembourg, Portugal and Spain have a voluntary systems (with 'perks' and incentives which guarantee a very large take up)
and are free and democratic countries.
One can look at this in isolation if one wishes but I find that unrealistic and far too simplistic.
I (and for that matter my
family) have a right to a life free from terror and crime.
It's not a perfect world and if these cards will reduce the risks that me and mine face from criminal behaviour or terrorism then I am prepared to
listen to what is said in their favour - and I don't expect them to be a perfect and total solution either.
When it comes to balancing conflicting 'rights' taking absolute black and white views on one alone rarely helps, IMO, wouldn't you say?
My iris, dna, retina, fingerprint and anything else belongs to me. If they pass a law saying they can just take those things then i believe
that is against my civil liberties.
- Well 'they' haven't (not in relation to ID cards anyway).
You are complaining about something that has not happened and, given the protracted fuss over what has just been agreed, is very unlikely to
But you do realise 'they' can
just take those things in relation to a criminal investigation?
(But you'll have to remember to blame your tory mates for that one, it was the tories that set up the national DNA database in 1995.
I wonder if that has you reconsidering who you'd vote for, hmmmm? )
What's next, they can come into my house and take the tv?
It's a joke in my opinion.
- Jayzuss wept man, if the example you come up with to illustrate the height of your concerns when it comes down to it is 'the state' coming in to
take your tv then yes that is a very depressing and sad joke.
[edit on 7-4-2006 by sminkeypinkey]