WAR: Army bans privately purchased body armor.

Again Disturbed, I agree, Bush didn't spend that 2+Trillion on Iraq, most of it went into parites for 13 year old girls, new cars, mansions, and bank accounts in Switzerland. WHy do you think the Preisdent of Halliburton is flying around in a new Private Jet? Has bought more/new cars each costing at least 200 thousand dollars, while the troops don't have armor for anything, or food, or clean water!

I wouldn't mind spending 2+Trillion dollars on our troops, they are out there fighting a war for oil, they are dying! WHy not get them Grade 5 armor? They are the ones dying, and if we are going to spend 2+Trillion for oil we should have the best for our best. Support the troops not the war.

Again Disturbed, I agree, Bush didn't spend that 2+Trillion on Iraq, most of it went into parites for 13 year old girls, new cars, mansions, and bank accounts in Switzerland. WHy do you think the Preisdent of Halliburton is flying around in a new Private Jet? Has bought more/new cars each costing at least 200 thousand dollars, while the troops don't have armor for anything, or food, or clean water!

The money pumped into Iraq adds up to about 200 billion no matter how you want to spin it. If you don't understand that America has always been in debt, and that it has little to do with the war, then you have no knowledge of economics.

The troops have always had armor. 90,000 of the 130,000 troops from the start had the latest armor. No food or clean water? That's absurd. Those bases are large. They are air conditioned. Many are so large they are stationed with fast food restaurants.

Do you know what the British call American soldiers? Spoiled. No other nation gives their soldiers as much as what Americans do. The British don't even have simple things like the supply of ammunition Americans have.

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
The attempt at putting together an Iraqi security force started shortly after the invasion

They didnt put up a decent police force in 9 months time forget an army !

They still have protection. They aren't defenseless.

You have no clue do you ?

Your suggestion that some insurgent leaders may be equipped better is what's laughable.

If anyone can buy this extra armour over the net, I guess it would be impossible for terrorists to procure it ! That makes sense.

What exactly is your point? They are adding armor to a humvee, which is luxury most in the world simply do not have.

Sheesh.
Pay attention: The Humvee is NOT meant to deal with the role the US military is playing there(guerilla warfare). There are NO vehicles in the US army that are specifically designed for countering guerilla warefare that were used in Iraq.
Attention: Our Allies dont have Humvees not because they cant BUY them but because they dont want them.
If greece can buy Humvees anybody can buy them !! (note: rhetorical! )

The government never promised to give them anything. Nor have they all been training with armored humvees and the very best body armor.

BS! It is the duty of the army to provide its soldiers with all required equipment failure to do so, is failure of command. If this was done on purpose, generals can face diciplinary action and even get court marshalled ?
What next, are you going to tell them, we didnt promise you bullets, go buy your own?

America is constantly phazing out equipment and introducing new pieces. When, exactly, is it ok to go to war? Every soldier is never going to have the top of the line material. The kevlar and armored humvees are both new.

What are you talking about? , I am talking about providing soldiers with adequate body armour and adequately armour vehicles be they Humvees or APC's to enable them to work with greater effecieny.
Hello ACAV's ?

America was completely unprepared heading into, WW2,....

America was unprepared for WW2 ???
I am wasting my time here........

The IDF is a force trained specifically to fight low-tech, guerilla conflicts. In case you haven't noticed, they have a little spat going on with the Palestinians, and have for some time.
I don't know if the Israelis have armored humvees and the interceptor armor. Going to bet you don't, either.

IDF is a professional military whether you believe this or not. And yes they do have "up-armoured" humvees and FYI it is called up-armoured not armoured because basically all Humvees are armoured to withstand a .22 but few can with stand 7.56rounds thus extra armour is added to it.
Not only do they have up-armoured Humvees they also have a whole range of vehicles that are specifically designed for urban combat.
So I guess you just refused to read the link- propaganda peice apparently !
Ignorance is NOT Bliss.
Nagmachon
Hey, its all a joke cause as you say, # happens !

[edit on 4-4-2006 by IAF101]

[edit on 4-4-2006 by IAF101]

Actually... The troops are having to buy their own bullets, and guns... SOme only have a rifle, which is nice on a battle feild, but in close combat of a street a handgun is used, but few have them, so either had them shipped to them or had to buy them. Same with bullets, having to buy their own bullets as the 2+Trillion dollars went into bank accounts and a New Private Jet and parties and bribes and cars and mansions instead of armor, bullets, guns, food, and water.

They didnt put up a decent police force in 9 months time forget an army !

9 months isn't practically after the invasion....

If anyone can buy this extra armour over the net, I guess it would be impossible for terrorists to procure it ! That makes sense.

Yeah, and it's real easy to get the stuff in Iraq, isn't it? I mean, the insurgents are just so high-tech, with loads of resources...

And, once again...That's why they can't find American forces head-on, and have essentially given up trying. Hey, judging by how you describe the American forces, they are completely outgunned and outmanned...

Pay attention: The Humvee is NOT meant to deal with the role the US military is playing there(guerilla warfare). There are NO vehicles in the US army that are specifically designed for countering guerilla warefare that were used in Iraq.
Attention: Our Allies dont have Humvees not because they cant BUY them but because they dont want them.
If greece can buy Humvees anybody can buy them !! (note: rhetorical! )

No, the Europeans and them would all love to just keep their smaller jeeps...And, no one wants them, huh? That would be why the Chinese are attempting to copy them?

A humvee isn't designed to do it. It isn't an APC. No army in the world has APC's for an entire army.

And...Funny thing is, American soldiers have lost not even 1% of their forces in Iraq. Once again, find me another war you can say that about.

BS! It is the duty of the army to provide its soldiers with all required equipment failure to do so, is failure of command. If this was done on purpose, generals can face diciplinary action and even get court marshalled ?
What next, are you going to tell them, we didnt promise you bullets, go buy your own?

The leaders of WW1, WW2, Korea and Vietnam were all horrible failures, then. Not to mention the Civil and Revolutionary Wars. How about the 1812? The military has never been more prepared for a war as it has been for Iraq.

America was unprepared for WW2 ???
I am wasting my time here........

America didn't even have a tank force going into WW2. The tanks America ended up fighting with were completely useless against what they were facing in North Africa. The army was in complete shambles, and suffered nothing but setbacks in the innitial stages of the war.

You have no clue what you are talking about.

Don't even bring up Korea, when the foolish politicians tore apart and decomissioned much of the military after WW2. Most of the American equipment didn't even work when the war started.

IDF is a professional military whether you believe this or not. And yes they do have "up-armoured" humvees and FYI it is called up-armoured not armoured because basically all Humvees are armoured to withstand a .22 but few can with stand 7.56rounds thus extra armour is added to it.
Not only do they have up-armoured Humvees they also have a whole range of vehicles that are specifically designed for urban combat.
So I guess you just refused to read the link- propaganda peice apparently !
Ignorance is NOT Bliss.

You're a fool. Try addressing what I actually say instead of what you would like to. The IDF has been dealing with the Palestinians for decades now. They are going to have a military specially built to fight such wars.

from a diferent but related thread, some new infomartion out with regards to this.....

Murray Neal, CEO of Pinnacle Armor, has told us that both Level III/III+ and Level IV (classified) Dragon Skin have undergone testing at the U.S. Army Aberdeen Test Center (ATC) and Army Research Laboratory (ARL)--to Secretary of Defense Standards (military standards), no less--and passed those tests. This information would seem to be at direct odds the following statements made by Mr. Sorenson: "In some cases we haven't seen this capability ... has done anything to provide force protection we evaluate is even standard," and "all other claims being made (about Dragon Skin are) ... exactly what they are: claims." It’s our understanding that the DoD ballistic test standards mentioned above are more stringent than NIJ standards. In those tests (which did happen, by the way), Dragon Skin reportedly...

proved to be superior to Interceptor body armor. ATC and ARL are both recognized and trusted Department of Defense (DoD) test facilities (including ballistic testing), but they don’t appear to be Natick’s and PEO’s preferred ballistic testing facilities. That now dubious honor goes to H.P. White Laboratory, Inc., a civilian test facility. Interestingly, a number of professionals in the ballistic armor field that we’ve spoken with do not trust H.P. White Laboratory to conduct fair ballistic testing of their products, as they believe H.P. White to be biased towards U.S. Army Natick Soldier Center/Soldier Systems Center (Natick) and PEO Soldier. In fact, H.P. White is so preferred by these two organizations that General James R. Moran (James R. Moran) would reportedly only agree to test Dragon Skin/SOV body armor at this facility. Hmh.

a little bit more background about what alot of people in the field and in the know have concluded from the current interceptor vs dragon skin farce

Natick and PEO have basically declared war on Pinnacle Armor and Dragon Skin. It’s DefRev’s opinion that what we’re all seeing here is an economic and political fight, a high-stakes turf war, if you will. It would appear that U.S. Army Natick and PEO are actively protecting their Interceptor body armor program and preferred contractors (soft armor and ceramic hard armor components), and blocking Dragon Skin from being adopted/procured, even though (we believe) these organizations are already aware that Dragon Skin is superior to Interceptor, with Dragon Skin offering superior ballistic protection to Interceptor in terms of coverage area at the same weight, multi-hit capability, threat level protection, and durability.

If we’re right, these organizations (U.S. Army Natick and PEO Soldier) are working against the best interest of our infantry warfighters, because they’re keeping them from receiving the best ballistic protection that’s currently available--technology that could better protect them from enemy ballistic threats. And, the worst part is, they’re doing this during wartime. If we’re correct in our assessment, then the actions we’ve described could actually rise to the level of treason. We don’t use the “T” word lightly. The actions that have been taken so far by certain individuals are potentially criminal and thus prosecutable acts. Our warfighters’ lives are at stake (again, during wartime). Remember, our infantry warfighters are currently suffering approx. 95% of all combat casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan (and anywhere else in the world, for that matter), so they deserve the best weapons and ballistic protection they can get. In our opinion, as well as the opinions of a number of military and PSC/PMC professionals we’ve spoken with, Interceptor simply ain’t it, and SOV/Dragon Skin is (the best existing body armor for anti-rifle protection).

Pinnacle Armor has challenged the army to side by side test by mutuality agreed upon independent tester...

Murray Neal, Pinnacle’s CEO, recently told DefenseReview that "Pinnacle Armor has a standing invitation for the U.S. Army to do a side-by-side [live-fire test of Dragon Skin body armor vs. Interceptor body armor], that when the smoke clears, that the Army agrees that whatever's left standing without holes in it gets outfitted to the Army soldiers [immediately]--and the Interceptor won't be that system . They can put the best Interceptor body armor they have, and we'll put ours [Dragon Skin] next to it...[reiterates challenge]". Mr. Neal added that information (written ballistic test data and video footage) to Pinnacle's level IV SOV/Dragon Skin would of course have to remain classified (as it is, currently). Pinnacle Armor's Level III/III+ Dragon Skin has not been classified by the U.S. military.

"If someone finds the holy grail we will be right there to back up the dump truck and buy it," Sorenson has said. Defense Review would like to believe him (for the sake of our troops).

However, as much as we’d like to see the U.S. Army take Pinnacle Armor up on Mr. Neal’s challenge (under fair and video-taped conditions, with Pinnacle Armor representatives and independent witnesses present), we’re guessing they won’t. It’s our belief that they can’t, because Dragon Skin will beat Interceptor hands down, and they know this. If this were to happen, it could potentially prove fatal to the Interceptor body armor program—and Natick and PEO won’t allow that to happen.

check out the link below at the bottom they have vids of dragon skin taking on 21 Rounds 7.62x39mm FMJ at 20 feet from AK-47 and 120 rounds 9mm FMJ at 10 feet from a MP5. The more you read up on this the stranger it gets, I'm bout to start this topic over in the conspiracy forum....


www.defensereview.com...

It wouldn't really surprise me if Interceptor is being used simply because some officials are lining their pockets. I would be a bit surprised at the pettiness of actually banning regular soldiers from wearing it during combat. I do not see how that would actually matter to them. The Interceptor armor won't go anywhere, whether something is shown to be superior or not.

Murray Neal, CEO of Pinnacle Armor, has told us that both Level III/III+ and Level IV (classified) Dragon Skin have undergone testing at the U.S. Army Aberdeen Test Center (ATC) and Army Research Laboratory (ARL)--to Secretary of Defense Standards (military standards), no less--and passed those tests. This information would seem to be at direct odds the following statements made by Mr. Sorenson: "In some cases we haven't seen this capability ... has done anything to provide force protection we evaluate is even standard," and "all other claims being made (about Dragon Skin are) ... exactly what they are: claims." It’s our understanding that the DoD ballistic test standards mentioned above are more stringent than NIJ standards. In those tests (which did happen, by the way), Dragon Skin reportedly...

It's funny that their main source of information is, in fact, Pinnacle Armor itself. I would be much more interested if they had more credible sources...

Another factor, that may be coming into this is sheer cost. The army may not want to use the Dragon Skin simply because it is more expensive than the Interceptor Armor.

on the total loss of life during this 'war' , our gov. doesn't count or report the 'friendly fire' deaths, 'suicide', soliders who were injured in iraq but didn't die until they left the country, 'natural' causes, etc. also, they don't accurately count and report the number of severly wounded soliders, with head wounds, loss of limbs, PTSD suicides after they come back etc. we have soldiers coming back going crazy and killing their wives for goodness sakes!! we need an accurate count of ALL deaths and wounded, and the truth would probably make you sick. remember, the caskets being brought back aren't even shown, so what are they hiding? a friend in the war zone told me that if you die while being flown to another base you aren't considered a war casualty, even if you are still in the air leaving the war zone. that's wrong. not only is it a lie and a cover up, it is denying those dependents left behind accurate info on the deaths, and in some cases they don't get the benefits they deserve because they didn't 'die'in the conflict.

Originally posted by Disturbed Deliverer
It's funny that their main source of information is, in fact, Pinnacle Armor itself. I would be much more interested if they had more credible sources...

Another factor, that may be coming into this is sheer cost. The army may not want to use the Dragon Skin simply because it is more expensive than the Interceptor Armor.

my post here was originally for another long running thread I started on dragon a while back, the particular article I was quoting is in direct response to the Army's New line that dragon skin failed DOD standard or army standard testing, which is quite fishy to anybody who has followed the dragon skin vs interceptor fiasco. It has been individually proven and battle proven:
www.military.com...

here some more info and pics

heres a link of a vest shot with 7.62x51mm M80 ball steel-jacketed round (2850-2900 fps) at a distance of 15ft (muzzle to body ELEVEN HITS NO PENETRATION)

direct link to pic: www.defensereview.com...

heres another pic of one of the panels after being shot with 7.62x39mm armor-piercing round (mild-steel-core penetrator)

link to pic: www.defensereview.com...

link to complete article: www.defensereview.com...

granted Dragon skin is a lot more expensive than interceptor, so there may be some grounds there but the initial interceptor kit was something under a grand and a half I think (not sure feel free to correct me) before the additional side plates and other addition protection was added after performance problems in Iraq, now it’s somewhere around 2000 or slightly less for a complete kit. While dragon skin is in the 5,000 range, but it’s a huge leap in improvement, it’s flexible due to it’s design and significantly stronger and more protective than the interceptor vest whose ceramic plate has to be replace after a significant hit because it shatters with a big enough hit. While dragon skin is small individual platelets which take the hits and leave the others undamaged unlike a single large Plate with limited protection. And another big part of the fiasco is that interceptor is and in house project with a lot of government money and time invested in it.