Should Israel Divide Jerusalem???

The Nation of Palestine: According to Oslo agreements Palesine is the lands that were occupied in 1967 . So any occupied land after 1967 is for the palestinans.



The Eastren Jerusalem was occupied in 1967 , so it belongs to the palestinians . The palestinians will be satisfied if they are given the 1967 lands including Eastren Jerusalem (which is the most important part of the city for the palestians).



Deep blue you are talking about year 1967 and did you know that israel was belong to jews along time ago(The bible time)

[edit on 2-4-2006 by Legion877]

Originally posted by Legion877
Deep blue you are talking about year 1967 and did you know that israel was belong to jews along time ago(The bible time)

Wrong... the Bible said that Israel belongs to the Jews. Just because it's written in a book doesn't mean it's true.

Originally posted by Legion877

Deep blue you are talking about year 1967 and did you know that israel was belong to jews along time ago(The bible time)

When the Israelites left Egypt and they ended up in what is now Israel, weren't other people living there then too? That whole country was just all empty? I thought at one time Phoenicia was that whole area.

posted by ThePieMaN: “You guys are funny. Now I see why there is so much fighting.

Riwka : Do you really believe that if they acknowledge Israel it would help?

T/P/M If they did, I bet the first thing out of your mouth would be "I don't believe you!"

Deep_Blue: I like the "Hit my hand with his face" analogy. It sounds like its accurate since the answer for a tank running over a kid was "what was he doing near the tank."

T/P/M Arguing and Haggling is a handicap for the people of the Middle East. [Edited by Don W]

Post 1967, 250,000 (est.) Jewish people have moved into the West Bank area. The so-called “settlements.” Not so often mentioned, is the 200,000 settlers who have moved into the expanded Jerusalem. Unfortunately for the world, these people have the right to vote. No Israeli government can take the steps for peace they know need to be taken because the settlers would be the most unified voting block in the history of election, excluding those elections held by Hitler and Stalin.

Going back - in history - to prior 1967 is futile. It’s worse than watching a bitter divorce arguing over who get’s the dog. There are no reliable population statistics - demographics - available before 1922 when the British began taking periodic census. I am one who holds to much lower populations in the far distant past than some estimators, basing my views on what I have learned working in the water industry.

For example, I believe the permanent population of Jerusalem in the First Century CE, was more likely less than 15,000. On the feast days - Passover - I do not see the population going to more than 25,000 people. I’m using 3 gallons of drinkable water per day, per person. I’m thinking also of the need to dispose of waste water and other garbage. These practical considerations would have sharply limited the population any city could have handled.

Travel by donkey? A donkey’s “work cycle” is measured in half hour increments. Work, rest, eat and drink. Work, rest eat and drink. So, you cover 1-2 miles an hour. While Semitic tradition demands hospitality to a traveler it would not extend to large families traveling en mass. Travelers would need money or things of value to barter, to buy food and lodging, and this is one thing very few people ever had.

But I digress. Back only to 1967 conditions. The instant rejection of Hamas by the Israelis and their mentors, the United States, was forced on both because the Israeli government cannot negociate at any genuine give and take level. PM Sharon recognized this, and decided to move unalterably to establish long term defensible borders.

Israel cannot offer Palestinians what everyone knows must be offered to have peace. Let us put blame where it belongs, and that is equally on the shoulders of Yassir Arafat and the PLO that allowed him to dominate Palestinian policies. The choice of leaders is so very important. Look at the United States in 2000. The people often live to regret bad choices.

posted by ThePieMaN: “

posted by Legion877[/I] Deep blue you are talking about year 1967 and did you know that Israel belonged to the Jewish people a long time ago (the Bible times)?

When the Israelites left Egypt they ended in what is now Israel; weren't other people living there then too? That whole country [Canaan] was just all empty? I thought at one time Phoenicia was that whole area. [Edited by Don W]

I agree with you PieMan. Canaan was not empty. Read the Book of Joshua. But isn’t this whole thread a sad commentary in itself? Here we are, educated people, in 2006, arguing over what may or may not have happened 3,000 years ago?” Wow! And maybe worse, debating with all seriousness what significance to give it today? Wow! We can’t all agree on what happened in Florida in 2000.

I’ll bet this (pointless) debate does not happen anywhere else in the world! Does this mean we are so rich we can now afford to count the number of angels on the head of a pin? Or we can engage in serious debate whether angels are male or female? Or both? Or neither? Is this phenomenon peculiar to the West? Do Chinese still debate whether the Great Wall was a good investment? Do Japanese still recount the number of dead in the 1281 Mongol fleet a typhoon destroyed and was named Kamikaze - Divine Wind. I don’t know.

Secular scholars discount the story of Joseph and the Israelites getting into Egypt, followed by Moses and the Exodus story getting out of Egypt. (Mimicked in the Book of Matthew, portraying Jesus as another Moses.) Egypt was the oldest, richest and greatest power in that era. It is not hard to imagine how lesser accomplished peoples wanted to associate their ancestors with Egypt. “Pyramids? Hey, we built’em!”

Serious studies show the Book of Genesis incorporates the writings of at least three different authors - Genesis should have been named the “Book of Origins of the Hebrew People.” Aside. Had it been, imagine how the anti-Darwinian evolutionists would have been cut off at the knees!

Regardless of your take on history, we must ultimately deal fairly and honestly with the situation we now find ourselves in. Or will we forever commit ourselves to “I was here first” or the “you started it” cycles of violence that so many desperate people find themselves locked into. I can see Nirvana at the end of a long road, but it is mostly uphill.

[edit on 4/2/2006 by donwhite]

Oh man.. another thread of "battle of the faiths".

Just got back from some serious travelling and trying to get caught up on the goings on here at ATS. Found this thread and going to focus on it for awhile. Got to read through some serious postage so will pick up here in a few. For now:

Deepblue

"Regulator-Boy I don't Care about the Biblical claims , keep those claims for yourself.

I only accept Historical facts and Codes of human rights, keep your religious believes for yourself.

Hate to break it to you Deep but you don't have that kind of control here so why don't you save yourself some energy and realize that you are not in any position to tell anyone to keep Biblical claims as you say to themselves.

The Bible is the bedrock of my faith and belief and if you don't like that then your just going to have to lump it because like I said, unless a power much greater than yourself intercedes, I'll expound on my Biblical claims and "religions beliefs" to my hearts content, HERE.


That said...

I'll start off my argument with some scripture:

Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be CUT IN PIECES, though ALL the people of the earth be gathered together against it.


Interesting eh?

Alot of nations and people (Including America and our beloved president Bush with his "roadmap to peace") are heading on a collison course with the most High God Himself. We are going to loose, big time. You may not believe in the Bible but it is pretty clear about who has right to the land that Israel resides on and what is going to happen to anyone who tries to divide the land.


I've only scanned this thread so far but I'll be reading back through it throroughly. (I'm really curious about all the 'historical facts' being thrown around) I'll run it all by my faith and let you all know what I think.





[edit on 2-4-2006 by TxSecret]

Zec 12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be CUT IN PIECES, though ALL the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

this scripture is paramount in understanding what is about to take place in jerusalem ...during the coming apocalyptic events in which god himself will intervene on israels behalf ....

we live in an unpresedented time in history where all these signs are pointing to the coming antichrist & true messiah . having a showdown over the city & land god himself gave to the jewish people ..

no matter which side of the fence your on at the end of the coming battle over this land ........you will know who god really is.........AMEN!!

Originally posted by TxSecret

Oh man.. another thread of "battle of the faiths".

Well,

That's just the difference between real life and what people outside the situation think.

Negotiations between Isarel and the PA in regard to land and borders are done on international political level, not between rabbis, imans and rpeists.

Originally posted by Riwka
Negotiations between Isarel and the PA in regard to land and borders are done on international political level, not between rabbis, imans and rpeists.

Well its another thorn in both of your sides that there are religious zealots who don't want to see a peace between your peoples and who don't want to see Israel give up any of its land no matter what.

And you see them in Israel exact where in the political landscape?

Just FYI: This are the final results of the 17. Knesset Elections (March 28,2006)

wow riwka that's some graph and makes it easy to see why power so easily shifts from one party to the next ..

posted by Riwka: “ . . you see exactly where in the Israel political landscape? Just FYI: This are the final results of the Knesset Elections March 28,2006 . . [Edited by Don W]

If you are like me, you are deeply disappointed in the general political landscape in America. The most glaring example is the fact we are stuck with a failed president, Geo W, until Jan. 20, 2009. All of ’07, all of ‘08, and much of ‘06. Come hell or high water. Our best hope is he will get into a shorter learning curve. But how realistic is that to wish for?

Just look at Canada. A couple months ago they got rid of the Liberal Party government due to too much corruption. After just 2 years in office. Well short of the 5 year term to which they were elected. Same in England. Tony Blair “lost” the last election although the Labor Party was so far ahead that it still holds a majority in the House of Commons.

However, there has already been one vote Tony Blair lost. Should he lose anther vote, there will be a vote of confidence and if he loses that, he is out. It could happen anytime. Like, if 50 or 60 Brits were killed in Iraq. The UK, like Canada, would then call a new election not sooner than 30 days, nor later than 60 days. Praise God! An election campaign just 2 months long!

Proportional representation. A person votes two times. At the same time. First, he designates his choice of party. Then he votes for candidates. Each party is assigned a number of seats in the 120 seat Israel Knesset - 650 seats in UK House of Commons - then the seats are assigned to the party candidates getting the most votes until the party’s seats are assigned. In 2000, the Green Party would have been awarded 13 seats in the U.S. House. The Dems would have received 213 seats, the GOP 208 seats, and 1 seat for the next largest vote getting party. If we used this system, it is very likely we’d have many more parties. Many more points of view. Many more rational compromises. Better governance.
Not just black and blacker.

I'm in the camp on of making Jerusalem a UN world open city, since people can't back away from the hatred from each other. Or we can be asking the same questions 50 years, 100 years in the future with many dead. More pissed off people ad hate. Let's just bite the bullet and end this freaking situation. Of course Israel and Palestine will become small players on the world stage, and will they be willing to accept that for peace. Nahhhh hate an war is where it is at. More money and recognition.

sbob you are wrong who told you that israel want this stupid war with palestines its just them that dont want the peace!

Originally posted by Legion877
sbob you are wrong who told you that israel want this stupid war with palestines its just them that dont want the peace!

You just proved him 100% right. For as long as neither of you will accept the fact that there are factions on BOTH sides that do not want peace and you both put your feet down and put a stop to them there will never be peace. Instead of blaming the other side constantly and accepting no responsibility whatsoever.
If you are honestly able to say that a child being run over by a tank is a totally innocent act and that its the responsibility of the child , then you have problems. I know as a parent of 3 children, that I'd want to hurt someone that did that to my kid too, especially if the person that did it was never placed in jail or unpunished in any way.

Palestine-Net: Chronology of Palestinian History
Following is a compiled chronology of Palestinian history from early stages till the beginning of the current occupation. This chronology (up to 1949) is summarized from the well-known reference All That Remains (ed. Walid Khalidi). The historical events beyond 1949 are taken from the PASSIA diary (year 2000 issue).
The original copy of this page stopped at 1914 - World War I. We received many requests from our dear visitors to complete it and we just met their request. Thank you for visiting.
DO READ IT...palestine-net.com

mod edit: removed huge cut/paste.

[edit on 5-4-2006 by sanctum]

ThePieMan i know what you are talking about i hate palestines only because my friend was killed in my first mission by them,and i want revange!

[edit on 5-4-2006 by Legion877]

Revenge is a bad thing.

Look up in the Tora - it strictly warns us against taking revenge. (Kedoshim [Levticus] 19:18.)
And in the book of Deut (32:35), G'd tells us, "Vengeance belongs to Me."

Revenge is an act which you want to commit when you are powerless. But the State of Israel is not powerless at all, we are able to defend the safety and well-being of the entire people in it - according to the laws.

[edit on 5-4-2006 by Riwka]

Originally posted by Legion877
ThePieMan i know what you are talking about i hate palestines only because my friend was killed in my first mission by them,and i want revange!

[edit on 5-4-2006 by Legion877]

Im sure a lot of people there feel the same way on both sides. A lot of people want that to happen. They make a lot of money from it. The people who supply israel with weapons and all the high tech security stuff and the people charging the palestinians (Im sure a LOT of money) to smuggle in small arms and explosives.
At the point both of you are at...ANYONE and I mean anyone could go and dress like a Israeli soldier, or a palestinian terrorist at this point and lob a bomb or shoot someone. You wouldn't even know it and you all start fighting again.

People have lost close friends and even family from both sides of the fence. Get over it and move forward instead of dwelling on it and making it worse. Maybe next time it won't be just a friend. It could be a mother or father. The longer you delay it the longer the bloodshed will last.

if it would be so easy!
We where only guarding one of the hamvees when 4 palestines came shot us i got bullet in my leg my frieng in head and dont tell me to forget it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!