Should Israel Divide Jerusalem???

Originally posted by Deep_Blue
Bla bla bla... The regular Hate BS from a typical brainwashed person with low IQ.

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The Jewish claim to Palestine has no historical basis. Zionists claim the extent of the Kingdom of David and Solomon which lasted for only about 73 years. Settled populations have inhabited Palestine for some 9000 years. Much of the land that the Zionists claim as exclusively theirs has been predominantly populated by Jews for less than 1% of its history. From AD 70, when the Roman emperor Titus destroyed the Jewish Temple, the Jewish community in Palestine practically ceased to exist until Saladin, the Muslim conqueror, retook Jerusalem in 1187 and allowed the Jews to return.

Modern anthropologists believe that today’s Palestinians are descended from the Canaanites who are the earliest recorded inhabitants of the land and the Philistines. The Palestinian people, despite the infusion of other peoples, have remained the natural inhabitants of the land.

Source

The palestinians are descended from the Canaanites. And the Canaanites inhibited palestine in 3000 B.C therefore the palestinians inhibited Palestine for 5000 years !

The following quote (from the same source) will make this clear:

Source
Much of the land that the Zionists claim as exclusively theirs has been predominantly populated by Jews for less than 1% of its history.

Originally posted by Deep_Blue

The palestinians are descended from the Canaanites.

That is wrong.

Paelstinains are Arabs:

The Palestinian people living today in Israel and the GazaStrip and WestBank are Arabs from Saudi Arabia, Syria, Yemen, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Egypt, and the nations of North Africa.

The main symbol of cultural unity among them is the Arabic language.

Most of them are Muslims, that's why the religion of Islam provides another common bond for the majority of Arabs.

But there are also Christian Palestines living in Israel and the Gazastrip/Westbank


[edit on 31-3-2006 by Riwka]

Originally posted by kenshiro2012
Actually the proof is in the media.
I have just finished up a debate here on ATS that addresses the question of weather or not Hamas would become more moderate.
Take a look at the information in the debate as it will cover much in the way of the questions that I have seen here in this thread.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Thanks great link - I'll read through it

Originally posted by Riwka

Originally posted by Deep_Blue

The palestinians are descended from the Canaanites.

That is wrong.

Paelstinains are Arabs:

Big misconception. The Palestinians are not originally Arabs.

Arabs are the people how inhibited Arabia (which is now Saudi Arabia and Yemen now). So Egyptian, Syrian, Iraqi's, Palestians, Tunisians and Moroccans are not originally Arabs.

Palestinians are originally Canaanites, Tunisians and Moroccans are originally the Barbers.. and so on.

Back to the Jewish claims:

When you say Jewish you mean a person how follows Judaism Religion. Who can a religion be a standard for claiming ownership of a land? Doesn't it make sense that race would be more accurate standard?
Now the Jews than occupy Palestine now, where did they came from?
They came from Holand, Germany, Russia, Ethiopia, ….... Long list.........
Jews who are living in Palestine now are in fact mixed races. How can a mixed race claim the ownership of Palestine while the original owners who lived in Palestine for thousands of years cannot?

Where did you think Palestinians came from ? outer space ?!!

And it was only 58 years ago when they occupied Palestine , and only 39 years ago when they stole Jerusalem.

My grandfather lived in Palestine before 1948, he is alive and he still remembers our village. He described our beautiful farm for me , he told me how the Israelis savagely kicked him out of the land and how he was going to be killed. For what guilt he was going to be killed? for living as a human being in his farm?

Isn't it harsh and Ironic that every single nationality is allowed to visit Jerusalem except Palestinians the original owners !




[edit on 31-3-2006 by Deep_Blue]

Originally posted by Deep_Blue

Back to the Jewish claims:

When you say Jewish you mean a person how follows Judaism Religion. Who can a religion be a standard for claiming ownership of a land?

1. I say: Each person who is born by a jewish mother or converted to Judaism is a Jew.
   
   
2. claiming private ownership of a land is done via documents that proof the ownership according to the laws. There are laws according to that in Israel - and also laws in Gaza and the Westbank
   
   
3. State land in Isael is land that belongs to to State of Israel

Originally posted by Deep_Blue

Now the Jews than occupy Palestine now, where did they came from?
They came from Holand, Germany, Russia, Ethiopia, ….... Long list.........

Oh you forgot that it is ISRAEL...it is not "the Jews" - there is a difference.
Furthermore, the WestBank under international law is "disputed territories" to which both, Arabs and Jews have claims and since there was no other sovereign authority, Israel, representing the Palestinian Jews, had as much right to settle people there as the Palestinian Arabs.

Originally posted by Deep_Blue

My grandfather lived in Palestine before 1948, he is alive and he still remembers our village. He described our beautiful farm for me , he told me how the Israelis savagely kicked him out of the land and how he was going to be killed. For what guilt he was going to be killed? for living as a human being in his farm?

I am sorry for your grandfather. I can understand that he flew (most have ben told to flew by the Arab world themselves and not by Israel), because it was war.

But, unfortunately it was the Arab world who started a war one day after the State of Israel was born. The Arab World LOST that war.

Originally posted by Deep_Blue

Isn't it harsh and Ironic that every single nationality is allowed to visit Jerusalem except Palestinians the original owners !

Huh? Where does your grandfather live today?

If he would be e.g. Iranian or Saudi Arabian citizen, he could not come to Israel - but that only because this countries do not allow this.

If he owns a 'normal valid' passport - of course he can come

- as tourist, since he is no Israeli citzen.

Gaza citezins and Westbank citezin cannot visit Jerusalem.

Got it

The anticipated personal sniping aside, this thread serves to illustrate to the readers the incredibly long span over which this land has been fought. Lying adjacent to the ancient 'fertile crescent', the geographical area of Israel before, during and after the it's existence as a kingdom exhbited multiple occupations and ownerships. Various peoples, cultures or religions wielded control at some point in time. Each, if they so desire, can offer up an example of 'their' era as justification for CURRENT demands.
There is no solution. There will be continuing conflict. It is madness.

Where did you get that rumor from?

Of course they can - but they have to look for permisssion papers first, since they are no citizens. (what do you think busses full of worshippers each Friday en route to Al Aqsa mosque come from, hm?)

Originally posted by Cylent773
Please dont get all mad at me people, this is just a hypothetical in relation to the topic.

What do you do when two children are fighting over the same toy and they just wont quit?

Answer: You take it away from BOTH of them until they calm down, or can come to an agreement to share it equally.

I understand that you just cant "take away" an entire city, but it would solve alot of the conflict over there if they had nothing to fight over in the first place.

I have thought about that too. Sort of what is done in Rome dealing with the Vadican. It is considered a seperate "counry in a country" with it's own laws and such.

Originally posted by Deep_Blue
Gaza citezins and Westbank citezin cannot visit Jerusalem.

Got it

Outright lie. Go visit the holy Muslim sites in Jerusalem on a Friday and then come back and say that again. For someone who seemed to be posting intelligently and well researched it is tremendously disappointing to see you say something like that.

The Muslim holy sites in Jerusalem are controlled by a Muslim authority and are filled to capacity by Muslim visitors daily. This is of course in direct contrast to the Western Wall (Jewish Holy Site) that was turned into a public toilet/garbage dump when under Arab control until 1967.

Research is healthy.

The only key thing to watch in Jerusalem is the Dome of the Rock and who's sights are on that.

Originally posted by ProudCanadian
Jerusalem is rightfully the Jews homeland so is all of Israel! They should not have to divide what was originally theirs. The muslims have enough land for themselves. They need to butt out of Israel and leave the Jews alone. What do people have against Judaism anyway? It's the one major religion that's NOT out to convert everyone else. Jews just want to practice their religion in peace without being disturbed. But everyone has to keep picking on them and it's about time everyone just gave them a break.

The land of Israel was guaranteed to Abraham and his seed, not the Jewish race or any race or people for that matter.

Genesis 12:7 King James Version
And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.

Galatians 3:16 King James Version
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Notice it says in a futuristic tense “Will I give” not “I give”. The giving has yet to be done. The play is setup so that the Anti-Christ will appear to be “given” the land, but he won't have it but a short time before God's true Covenant with Abraham is granted and Jesus Christ rules the 'land' and the earth forever.

The reason I used KJV is because of the fact that the NIV was improperly translated in Genesis 12:7 as it says "and to your offspring" which is wrong because 'seed' is singular. There is beyond a shadow of a doubt that this was purposefully misinterpreted to suit the elite luciferian jews' desire for world domination on the account of being 'God's chosen'. God's chosen was Jesus Christ and look what they did to him.

The deal with Hitler appears to be nothing more than a scheme to develop a global pity for "God's chosen", because, hey they really must be 'God's chosen' if persecuted in that fashion. This can be seen because Hitler was indeed kin to the so called sacred, lucifer worshiping, born and bred generation carrying the Davidic blood. Trace his finances back and you'll come face to face with none other than the very ones he was killing. It's amazing also how many Christians he killed but yet the Jews always fetch all the pity. Hitler was a fabrication just as the present day Osama bin Laden is, only on a larger destruction scale (or maybe not, as we have yet to see what else will be done in the name of Osama).

This topic is only a racial topic because they designed it that way, to put one tiny group of people up on a pedestal and create so much global pity that someone like myself would be frowned upon for speaking negatively about them (going against their N.W.O. Agenda) even though it is the truth and the truth will stand forever.

As far as a Jew is concerned my quote of the New Testament is useless, because they choose to believe that it isn't genuine. Their loss!

[edit on 31-3-2006 by WiseSheep]

Jerusalem should be accessible to all the three religions, but I think that Isreal wont accept it.
International surpervising would be a good alternative.

The whole Jerusalem IS accessible to all the three religions, up from 1967 when Israel won the war.

Before that time, Jeruslam was devided and the part that was annexed by Jordan, was NOT accessible to all religions.

[edit on 31-3-2006 by Riwka]

I, an American citizen, not an Israeli citizen, have freely visited holy sites of all 3 religions the last time I was in Israel.

Prior to 1967 this was not possible. I don't understand what part of that is hard to accept.

posted by WiseSheep: “The key thing to watch in Jerusalem is the Dome of the Rock . . “Gen. 12:7, KJV, And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.” The land of Israel was guaranteed to Abraham and his seed, not the Jewish race or any race or people for that matter.[Edited by Don W]

First, W/S, I think everyone understands that “seed” as used in this context is plural, and not one sperm cell. Or Isaac. And meaning thereby to exclude Ishmael. Had that been God’s intention, Him being prescient, I’m sure He could have said so in plain English. Oops, I mean in plain Hebrew. Next, I’m at a loss what you meant by saying I should keep my eye on the Dome of the Rock Mosque. If there is a list, I think Muslims regard the Dome Mosque as #4 in Holy Sites, just behind the al Aqsa Mosque, which would be #3, if numbered.

The Dome covers a large rock or boulder which was said to be the rock on which Abraham was about to make a child sacrifice with Isaac. Secularists like myself see this story as marking the abandonment of child sacrifice probably practiced by the Israelites. Which would make both Abraham and Isaac representational rather than historical figures. I forget what prompted Abraham to get ready to make this sacrifice.

“The reason I use KJV is because the NIV was improperly translated in Genesis 12:7 as it says "and to your offspring" which is wrong because 'seed' is singular . . “

I have already dealt with this ‘seed’ claim, above. As to the stated preference of KJV over NIV, I would look with more favor, and more confidence on the NIV, it being the later of the two by over 300 years. Further, strongly against taking KJV as authoritative, it was first translated into Elizabethan English which no one speaks today. NIV on the other hand, has the befit of a great deal of scholarship and was translated into a language spoken today. I’d say it was NIV over KJV, 2 to zip!

“ . . beyond a shadow of a doubt this was purposefully misinterpreted to suit the elite Luciferin Jews' desire for world domination on the account of being 'God's chosen'. God's chosen was Jesus Christ and look what they did to him.

I started to delete this rant, W/S, but then I thought our readers should have this to keep things in context. What can I add to this malevolent anti-Semitic accusation?

The deal with Hitler . . “

Some boards have a rule the first person’s post to mention Hitler is is deleted. Let me say this, there was no deal with Hitler by or for the benefit of any Jewish person.

“ . . It's amazing also how many Christians he killed but yet the Jews always fetch all the pity. Hitler was a fabrication . . “

You make it hard for me to continue, W/S.

“This topic is only a racial topic because they designed it that way, to put one tiny group of people up on a pedestal and create so much global pity that someone like myself would be frowned upon for speaking negatively about them going against their N.W.O. Agenda even though it is the truth and the truth will stand forever.”

You are wrong, W/S.

“ . . As far as a Jew is concerned my quote of the New Testament is useless, because they choose to believe that it isn't genuine. Their loss! [Edited by Don W]

Well, W/S, I guess a plea for tolerance will fall on dear ears? A plea for humility likewise? A plea for generosity also?

Q. W/S, who said, “There are 2 commandments; Love God with all your heart, and your fellow man as yourself?”

A. _______________

[edit on 3/31/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by ProudCanadian
Jerusalem is rightfully the Jews homeland so is all of Israel! They should not have to divide what was originally theirs. The muslims have enough land for themselves. They need to butt out of Israel and leave the Jews alone. What do people have against Judaism anyway? It's the one major religion that's NOT out to convert everyone else. Jews just want to practice their religion in peace without being disturbed. But everyone has to keep picking on them and it's about time everyone just gave them a break.

So the USA should give all of its land back to the native americans? I think the jews need to stop fighting a battle with no end and come up with a compromise.

Yeah, except for the fact that everyone you would have them compromise with has "destroy Israel" on their list of demands...........

As far as I'm concerned, I think the Israelis should treat Jerusalem in the same fashion that the Saudis treat Mecca. Have a little religious parity, right? After all, if its perfectly OK to completely deny access to Meeca simply because you are a non-Muslim, why should the same rules not apply?

Everybody should be allowed one and only one "holy city" where only they can enter....the Jews can have Jeruslam, Catholics can have Vatican City, Mormons have Salt Lake City, etc, etc,...and the Muslims can pick one of the three they currently revere. If they get smart and pick Jerusalem, fine. But watch out! That means the Moonies are free to pick Mecca and then the Muslims are SOL, baby!

Really, the muslims whining about lack of access to Jerusalem is the biggest crock to come down the pike in a long while. Talk about double standards. But then again, in most muslim societies, double standards (one for believers, and one for infidels) is a long-standing and perfectly acceptable tradition. People must learn that in many parts of the world, when muslims negotiate with non-muslim, they are bound by their own religion to be a dishonest broker.

Originally posted by Riwka
Where did you get that rumor from?

Of course they can - but they have to look for permisssion papers first, since they are no citizens. (what do you think busses full of worshippers each Friday en route to Al Aqsa mosque come from, hm?)

I didn't get the rumor , I tried to visit Jerusalem my self. and I was denied.

Also it is very very very very hard to get the permission papers you are talking about , And if you are from Gaza it is impossible to even visit the westbank.





[edit on 31-3-2006 by Deep_Blue]

posted by ProudCanadian [/I] All of Israel and Jerusalem is rightfully the Jewish homeland . . Muslims have enough land . . they need to butt out of Israel . . what do people have against Judaism anyway? It's the one major religion that's NOT out to convert everyone else. Jews want to practice their religion in peace . . But everyone has to keep picking on them . . it's about time everyone gave them a break. [Edited by Don W]

Well, P/C, I agree in a small part, disagree in large part. The old League of Nations 1922 British Palestine Mandate - that is really the first time a map was drawn setting out the boundaries we are arguing about today - is a troubled land for many reasons, most of which are in furtherance of a cynical foreign policy practiced first by Great Britain and France and now the United States.

About ½% of the population of the Middle East is in full control of the place and people who live there. Those people are universally pro-West. If not, we’ll replace them. Patriots like Gamiel Abdul Nasser and Moammar Quddafi changed or they knew they would soon be gone. King Hussein of Jordan was probably the best “puppet” for his people and the longest lasting. But he was also co-opted for the West. Your dream of a just and lasting peace is not yet ripe. And, P/C, you cannot honestly write a title deed to land based on a Book 3,000 years old. Forget that. This is 2006.

“So the USA should give all of its land back to the Native Americans?

Impractical. Unpopular. This too, is not going to happen. Even today, with the dividends from casinos, it is a real problem determining who is and who is not a real Native American.

I think the Jews need to stop fighting a battle with no end and come up with a compromise. [Edited by Don W]

P/C, do you have any idea how many military excursions the US has engaged in since 1918? We sent 20,000 soldiers to Russia, but came home in 1920, like Napoleon and Hitler, beaten by the Russian winters. We “took” Haiti in 1919, and gave it back in 1933. Still the poorest nation in the Western Hemisphere. Why is that?

America invaded Nicaragua, Costa Rica and Guatemala several times. We invaded Granada and Panama. We would have invaded Cuba but there was no oil there. Korea. Vietnam. Cambodia. Laos. Afghanistan. Iraq. We were not the only large nation running rampant around the world. To help anyone understand what and why, I highly recommend a book “Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies” by Jared Diamond.


[edit on 3/31/2006 by donwhite]