Should Israel Divide Jerusalem???

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posted on Mar, 31 2006 @ 02:25 AM
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There is a difference between individuals owning property and a country having administrative powers over a city (i.a. Jerusalem being "owned" by Israel)

The fact is, Israel claims it because of a 3,000 year old religious story about God promissing something. All is fine and good, people believe in lots of things. When you start to legalise such beliefs by laws though, you are bound to create trouble.
Imagine if we gave half of Asia to Macedonia now because of Alexander the Great once "owned" it.

Everybody who owns a house, business building and such in Jerusalem should keep on living like they do. Individual property ownerships should not be touched.
The administrative "ownership" of Jerusalem should be in international hands.

Similar situation existed in Bosnia after the war in 1995 in the city of Brcko and it worked quite well.
I'll explain more later, I'm working now, don't have time




posted on Mar, 31 2006 @ 02:55 AM
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Originally posted by paperclip

There is a difference between individuals owning property and a country having administrative powers over a city (i.a. Jerusalem being "owned" by Israel)



I know this difference.

That's why I am interested in any proof provided by deep_blue that the whole city 'belongs to Palestinians' .

I highly doubt that to be true


[edit on 31-3-2006 by Riwka]



posted on Mar, 31 2006 @ 03:28 AM
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The land is for the palestinians.
They owned the land before 1967 (remember Israel took Jerusalem in 1967).

I don't care about the bibical claims. Keep those claims to yourself.

Who owned the land before 1967? (hint: Palestinians)



[edit on 31-3-2006 by Deep_Blue]



posted on Mar, 31 2006 @ 03:41 AM
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i don't know about anyone else, but i distinctly remember the palestinians dancing in the streets, having a parade, even giving out candy to palestinian children in celebration of the 9/11 attacks on america. since that day, any muslim country who celebrated in such a way deserves no fair diplomatic treatment from any country in the civilized world. we should have destroyed the palestinians a.s.a.p. but we didn't and now a terrorist organization has been elected to govern the palestinian state. how much further are we gonna allow hate to flow? the palestinians refuse to accept israel as a legitimate state. to them i say TOO DAMN BAD!! palestine is not a super power, and i think its time they wake up and realise that. the only reason they exist is because they are ALLOWED to exist. my point is this this:we invaded afghanistan, and in as little as a few weeks we removed the taliban from power,we invaded iraq, and in as little as 2 weeks we removed the ba'athist party and saddam from power.the palestinians have always been treading on thin ice when it comes to diplomacy with israel and the u.s. when the old way no longer works a new method must be implemented. i'm not suggesting we destroy them just that we should round them all up, and bring em down to guantanamo for an indefinite amount of time. anybody agree?



posted on Mar, 31 2006 @ 04:12 AM
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Originally posted by Deep_Blue
The land is for the palestinians.
They owned the land before 1967 (remember Israel took Jerusalem in 1967).

I don't care about the bibical claims. Keep those claims to yourself.

Who owned the land before 1967? (hint: Palestinians)



Huh?

Do you want to rewrite history?

  • From 1517 onwards Jerusalem was under Ottoman rule.

    Jerusalem was never the capital of any Arab State.

  • Since 1830 Jeruslem has had a Jewish majority -- at first merely a relative majority, but subsequently an absolute one.

  • The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan annexed East-Jerusalem following the 1948 Arab-Israeli War. They divided Jerusalem for the first time in its history and drived thousands of Jews — whose families had lived in the city for centuries — into exile.J ordan denied Israelis not only access to the Temple Wall but also to the cemetery on the Mount of Olives, where Jews have been burying their dead for 2,500 years.

    About 19 years, the city of Jerusalem was split then (Israel established its capital in western Jerusalem) - until the 1967 war.

    To view a stunning collection of Jerusalem maps visit the Jewish National Library.








    Their collection dates from as early as about 1200 up until the first decades of the 20th century. Click on box 4, and you can view over 250 maps in order of date of publication. Zoom into any one of them with a magnification that allows you to read the original detailed notes embellishing them.



  • posted on Mar, 31 2006 @ 04:33 AM
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    Originally posted by descendantofclairvoyance
    i don't know about anyone else, but i distinctly remember the palestinians dancing in the streets,


    Yeah I remember them dancing. You are talking about the time they caught the 4-5 guys across the river from the World Trade Center having a ball laughing and giggling as 3000 people died...oh wait they were Israeli spies..sorry my bad.
    And you wonder why they were singing and dancing in the streets? You talk about them as tho they are just dirt..."round'em up and shippem to Guantanimo" is a great attitude. Oh and please don't use 9-11 as an excuse for that type of attitude as thats how they have always been treated for quite some time now. I think they have been rounded up enough to last them a lifetime. There are people on BOTH sides of the fence who would like nothing more then to profit and prolong this war between Israel and Palestine and we as Americans should be the ones to make them both stop before we all die over religious squabbles and profiteering.

    mod edit: quote length



    [edit on 31-3-2006 by sanctum]



    posted on Mar, 31 2006 @ 05:58 AM
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    hmmm......the US was originally owned by the native americans......anyone want to offer the god knows how many non native americans living on their land a new homeland? gee.....if we go back far enough in history and trace back the original owners of all the lands and return it to them, I bet we could uproot every person on the planet!! and possibly confine them all to one little area of the world, since I think humanity kind of branched out from onlly one or two places. I don't think the "It was our land before it was theirs." is a feasible justification for dealing with problems like this. seems to me it would open up alot of headaches.

    as for jerusalem being divided, I don't think it will happen. if I remember right, it seemed that clinton was doing a pretty good job at striking a peace deal between the palestinians and the isrealis until the topic came up. then it was like both parties had an all or nothing mentality about jerusalem. maybe we should give the UN control of jerusalem and divide the rest of the area between the two parties, aim a few nukes at the area and tell them to play nicely from now on?

    [edit on 31-3-2006 by dawnstar]



    posted on Mar, 31 2006 @ 06:22 AM
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    The United Nations Do not want to have Jerusalem.

    Furthermore, there is no basis in international law for the position supporting a status of 'Corpus Separatum' (a separate entity) for the city of Jerusalem - including Bethlehem(!) in the south, Ein Kerem in the west, Abu Dis in the east, and Shu'fat in the north), such a suggestion was nothing more than one of many inappropriate historical attempts made to examine possible solutions for the status of Jerusalem and Bethlehem, Ein Kerem, Abus Dis and Shu'fat.....(I think the PA would not be amused to be remembered to this)


    The joint Declaration of Principles on August 19, 1993 created a framework for areas of negotiation. According to the agreements, major fundamental and controversial issues, such as Jerusalem, would be deferred to the permanent status negotiations.



    posted on Mar, 31 2006 @ 06:23 AM
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    Originally posted by descendantofclairvoyance
    i don't know about anyone else, but i distinctly remember the palestinians dancing in the streets, having a parade, even giving out candy to palestinian children in celebration of the 9/11 attacks on america. since that day, any muslim country who celebrated in such a way deserves no fair diplomatic treatment from any country in the civilized world. we should have destroyed the palestinians a.s.a.p. but we didn't and now a terrorist organization has been elected to govern the palestinian state. how much further are we gonna allow hate to flow? the palestinians refuse to accept israel as a legitimate state. to them i say TOO DAMN BAD!! palestine is not a super power, and i think its time they wake up and realise that. the only reason they exist is because they are ALLOWED to exist. my point is this this:we invaded afghanistan, and in as little as a few weeks we removed the taliban from power,we invaded iraq, and in as little as 2 weeks we removed the ba'athist party and saddam from power.the palestinians have always been treading on thin ice when it comes to diplomacy with israel and the u.s. when the old way no longer works a new method must be implemented. i'm not suggesting we destroy them just that we should round them all up, and bring em down to guantanamo for an indefinite amount of time. anybody agree?


    Bla bla bla... (*removed unneccessary comment and personal insult)

    [edit on 3-31-2006 by worldwatcher]



    posted on Mar, 31 2006 @ 06:28 AM
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    Originally posted by Riwka

    Originally posted by Deep_Blue
    The land is for the palestinians.
    They owned the land before 1967 (remember Israel took Jerusalem in 1967).

    I don't care about the bibical claims. Keep those claims to yourself.

    Who owned the land before 1967? (hint: Palestinians)



    Huh?

    Do you want to rewrite history?

  • From 1517 onwards Jerusalem was under Ottoman rule.

    Jerusalem was never the capital of any Arab State.


  • are you kidding the Palestinians were living in palestine through out the history, Many governments changed .. Umayads , Ottomans ... etc . But no one savagely kicked the Palestinians from their lands like the Israelis did.




    [edit on 31-3-2006 by Deep_Blue]



    posted on Mar, 31 2006 @ 06:35 AM
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    Originally posted by Deep_Blue

    are you kidding the Palestinians were living through out the history,



    And so did the Jews.

    Furthermore, Israel has not only Jewish, but also Palestinian citizens.

    I am still waiting for a source you deliver to proof your claim.



    posted on Mar, 31 2006 @ 06:39 AM
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    Please dont get all mad at me people, this is just a hypothetical in relation to the topic.

    What do you do when two children are fighting over the same toy and they just wont quit?

    Answer: You take it away from BOTH of them until they calm down, or can come to an agreement to share it equally.

    I understand that you just cant "take away" an entire city, but it would solve alot of the conflict over there if they had nothing to fight over in the first place.



    posted on Mar, 31 2006 @ 06:43 AM
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    ".....(I think the PA would not be amused to be remembered to this) "
    ------------------------------------------------------------

    good!! then may I suggest that both parties work together to solve the problems in a practical way instead of being so stubborn about it. Somewhere along the line, both parties gave me the idea that they are not gonna be willing to give up one inch of their sacred city! how many lives is one little city worth anyways? there is one thing that I have learned in life. it's that when two parties disagree, it is much better for both of them to come up with an resolution that benefits both of them than it is to drag in a third party, weather that be the UN, a court or whatever, and hand that decision making over to it. since more than likely that third party will also have their benefit in mind also. if things get too hot, well, the UN, or the US (UN's official peacekeepers) could be forced to take things into their own hands....and then hey, who would get the sacred city?



    posted on Mar, 31 2006 @ 06:55 AM
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    posted by paperclip: “In my opinion the best thing would be to put Jerusalem under some kind of international UN protectorate, to make it a neutral territory. It is a holy place to all three abrahamic religions who are not at the best terms with each other. If we had a country there that is not based on religion, we could give Jerusalem to them. [Edited by Don W]


    Sorry, P/C, but that was tried in 1948-49 when it was given to Jordan. It is or was as close to secular as you can get in the region - excluding Lebanon. Jordan mishandled its “possession” by denying Jewish people access to the Wailing Wall. I feel sure the unspoken bottom line for Israeli Jews is to give away everything won in the 1967 Six Days War except the Wailing Wall. And that, never!


    Since that is not the case, we should deny the ownership to everyone in order to allow access for everyone. It could solve quite a few problems. [Edited by Don W]


    Sounds reasonable to us, but this is not reasonable to Muslims nor to Jewish persons. At this point Christians have been satisfied to remain outside the debate as their Holy Sites are presently accessible and under traditional control. FYI, the one time since 1967 when Israel assumed more immediate control over the top of the Temple Mount followed several episodes of Arab children throwing rocks and garbage over the top to rain down on Jewish worshipers. I am neither an Arab nor a parent but I am told Arab children do not do anything they are not told to do by their parents. Arabs rebelled over the intervention by the IDF, so a new regime was arranged which has the unstated premise “don’t do that again.”


    [edit on 3/31/2006 by donwhite]



    posted on Mar, 31 2006 @ 06:57 AM
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    Originally posted by Riwka

    Originally posted by Deep_Blue

    are you kidding the Palestinians were living through out the history,



    And so did the Jews.


    For more than 2000 the jews in palestine were less than 3% . the ownership is for the 97%.
    The type of execuse that Jews were living there is a joke. Jews were living everywehre . Jews lived in Spain did that make it their homeland.

    Palestinians are the legal owner for palestine for more than 2000 years



    posted on Mar, 31 2006 @ 07:12 AM
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    Originally posted by Deep_Blue

    Palestinians are the legal owner for palestine for more than 2000 years


    You may probably want to rethink that.

    200 years ago, the term 'Palestinians' has been used for whom exactly?

    • The word itself derives from "Peleshet", a name that appears frequently in the Bible and has come into English as "Philistine". The name began to be used in the Thirteenth Century BCE, for a wave of migrant "Sea Peoples" who came from the area of the Aegean Sea and the Greek Islands and settled on the southern coast of the land of Canaan. There they established five independent city-states (including Gaza) on a narrow strip of land known as Philistia. The Greeks and Romans called it "Palastina".

      The Philistines were not Arabs, they were not Semites. They had no connection, ethnic, linguistic or historical with Arabia or Arabs. The name "Falastin" that Arabs today use for "Palestine" is not an Arabic name. It is the Arab pronunciation of the Greco-Roman "Palastina" derived from the Peleshet.

      Did you ever take a look to the Palestinian National Charter [the charter of the PLO] - who definded after the 1967 war the term "Palestinians'?

      Probably especially intersting to you in their definition who is an 'Palestinian' is Article 6 of the PNC:

    • Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the "Zionist Invasion"
      [ed Riwka: which means before 1917]


    So .. ?



    posted on Mar, 31 2006 @ 07:17 AM
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    Originally posted by Malichai
    Acording to this Article the Old City will be on Israels side of a divided Jerusalem and that includes the Al Aqsa Mosque.
    They are planning to steal the most important Islamic holy site in Palestine.

    Not true. There is no Palistine first off, secondly the idea that the third holy site being more important that the first holy site is crazy. The Jews only have a single place to pray. The muslims have three, who can honestly say that your only place to pray is less important than my third and keep a stright face.

    I also think that if you look at history, it is pretty obvious that the jews have a stake in the area. Most of the folks who lived there a long time ago have no claim that is recognized by international law. Israel does on the other hand. You can't have it both ways. The palistinians do not have an internationally recognized border or state. Israel does. Unfortunately the arabs want to keep making war and Israel responds and occupies. If the arabs would just figure out that Ghandi and MLK had it right Israel would be in a world of hurt. You cannot kill on international tv people who are just marching and doing sit-ins. This is the ONLY way that international community will side completely against Israel. It is the only way the prime backer of Israel (the US) would stand with the UN against Israel. It is the only way to make a possitive outcome with the Israeli population. The Israeli population reacts like its government, if they have bombs going off, they scream at the government to do something to make it stop. They do then the arabs cry about it being too harsh...boohoo. Like the suicide bombers care anymore, they are roasting in hell. The families left behind say "we are so proud of Ahknaad for blowing up those foul Isralis", what is the population to do. Sit back and take it in the bum? Would you? I think not. You'd be screaming at whomever would listen that something, anything needed to be done and right now!!! You need look no further than 911. Right after people were criticizing the President for not acting soon enough, I mean we wanted blood and PDQ. Look at the 7/7 bombing same thing. In Australia, you had riots between muslims and everyday folks over something silly. There is no room for half measures anymore in the world it seems. If you want peace, act but within the rule of law. It is the only way that you keep your credibility in the eyes of those with the nukes and big armies that can put a hurting on you. That my friends is my .02



    posted on Mar, 31 2006 @ 07:22 AM
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    Originally posted by Cylent773
    Answer: You take it away from BOTH of them until they calm down, or can come to an agreement to share it equally.


    Hypothetical? Why can't this work in practise!?

    Nice post by the way. It really sums up the mental age of the argument quite nicely. Agreement probably will be reached, just I feel sorry for the people who have to unneccessarily die while both sides are throwing their respective strops.



    posted on Mar, 31 2006 @ 07:27 AM
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    Originally posted by Riwka
    I am still waiting for a source you deliver to proof your claim.


    Are the following enough:

    5000 years of palestian History:


    Jewish were minority in 1945:

    Also those percentages are after jewish imigration that started since 1917. SO before that the percentages were much lower.

    Palestine in the period 1947-1967 :



    Want more?

    Educate your self about palestine:
    An Atlas of palestine



    posted on Mar, 31 2006 @ 07:28 AM
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    posted by Deep_Blue: “For more than 2,000 years the Jews in Palestine were less than 3% . The ownership is for the 97%. The type of excuse that Jews were living there is a joke. Jews were living everywhere . . Jews lived in Spain; did that make it their homeland? Palestinians are the legal owner for Palestine for more than 2,000 years [Edited by Don W]


    Sorry, D/B, I’ve tried that approach and it will not work. For example, to my best knowledge, there never was a census - despite the story found in the biblical Book of Matthew - in old, Roman Palestine (Judea) until the 20th century. The Hebrew Bible does contain a story about the Israelite (Hebrews) conquest of the land of Canaan, but frankly, it is mostly mythological. Most geographers and demographers I have read - I don’t rely on the maps in old KJV bibles - say the Israelites never conquered all of what came to be known as the British Mandate under the League of Nations.

    Post War 2, everyone knows why Jewish people longed so desperately for a safe homeland. Let’s not revisit that. Throw in Theodor Herzl and Lord Balfour for not revisiting. To avoid the irresistible force vs. the immovable object argument, lets start this argument in 1967. That is real politick!

    One more thing. Let’s dispose of the Right of Return which is a strong arguing point you obliquely reference, D/B. I for one, completely discount the Arab slogans like “Push the Jews into the Sea” which I regard as the equivalent of America’s “Remember Pearl Harbor” or the French “Vive La France.” Pure hyperbole. Sloganeering. Etc. To give the Right of Return short shrift, the Arabs LOST the war in 1948-1949! End of argument. (I know the UN Charter disclaims annexing conquered territories, but in this instance, the conflict more nearly resembled a civil war and for sure was not an invasion by one country of another’s defined territory. Fini.)

    I am a subscriber to the Machiavellian theorem that the West - first Britain and France now the United States - uses the cynical ‘divide and conquer’ policy in the Middle East for the simple reason to assure the West of easy and cheap access to oil. In other words, turmoil is the handmaiden of Western policy toward the Middle East in general and Palestine in particular. Now called Israel, West Bank, Gaza, East Jerusalem and Golan.

    Since 1922, the West has given the ME rule by autocrats. Or plutocrats? It’s a tough world we live in. There is very little justice and almost no righteousness. Get over it. Make the best of what you have. It’s likely all you will see in your (and my) lifetime. Don't be another Iraq.


    [edit on 3/31/2006 by donwhite]



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