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What Happened to the White Russians?

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posted on Mar, 30 2006 @ 01:33 PM
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The Gog/Magog thread in the Conspiracy Masters forum got me thinking about this question, and I can find very little to go on as to what happened to the White Russians after the Crimean withdrawal of the last remnant in November of 1920. What happened to the majority of them seems to be a mystery. Could they have retreated to the far north above Siberia? Possibly to Severnaya Zemlya? Where they visited by Admiral Byrd in 1947?

Specifically, I'm connecting the White Russians with the King of the North aspect of the Gog/Magog thread, and possibly with the Tunguska Explosion of 1908.

Anybody with any real knowledge they would like to share on this topic, please do so. Be advised, I am not talking cocktails here, Molotov or otherwise.



The whites withdrew from southern Russia in March 1920, leaving only a minor detachment under the command of Wrangel on the Crimea. As the Soviet troops were engaged in battles against Poland, Wrangel made one more attack towards the north in June 1920. At the close of the Polish War, the Bolsheviks drove Wrangel’s troops out of the Crimea in November 1920, and later out of Russia. The U.S. troops left Vladivostok in April 1920 and the Japanese finally in October 1922. The Soviet regime remained in Russia.


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Gog/Magog

Tunguska Event

Adm. Byrd's secrets




posted on Mar, 30 2006 @ 04:44 PM
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Many of the surviving White Russians after the Revolution, I don't know if it was a majority by any means, but it was a significant number ended up settling in the area around Homer, Alaska, and are heavily involved, or were in the late 1980's, and early 1990's, in the fishing fleet there. We used to see at least a dozen of their little boats in Sand Point, Alaska every spring and summer.

So that's where some of them ended up. I also heard somewhere, I don't remember where, that a lot of them ended up in South America somewhere.



posted on Mar, 30 2006 @ 05:35 PM
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My Grand-father and his Father were both involved in the War [on Lenin's side]. From what I was told about it, with the fall of the White Russian Army against the Red Army they pretty much disbanded. They went into the Middle East, Asia, Alaska, Europe, etc anyone that wouldn't/couldn't turn them over so they wouldn't face death.

Teh only problem is, Communist Russia destroyed a lot of the records and information.



posted on Mar, 30 2006 @ 06:04 PM
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posted by Icarus Rising: “The Gog Magog thread in the Conspiracy Masters forum got me thinking about this question . . I can find very little as to what happened to the White Russians after the Crimean withdrawal of remnants in November of 1920. Anybody with any knowledge they would like to share on this topic, please do so. Be advised, I am not taking cocktails here, Molotov or otherwise. [Edited by Don W]

The Whites withdrew from southern Russia in March 1920, leaving a minor detachment under the command of Wrangel on the Crimea [peninsula]. At the close of the Polish War, the Bolsheviks drove Wrangel’s troops out of the Crimea in November 1920, and later out of Russia. The [20,000] U.S. troops left [Archangel and] Vladivostok in April 1920 and the Japanese withdrew in October 1922. The Soviet regime remained in Russia [until 1989]. Don W’s comments in brackets.


I believe the White Russians supported the Czar. Or the restoration of the Romanov monarchy. Some of them were members of the Russian nobility and other privileged classes. One of them, who claimed to be Princess Anastasia, lived to a ripe old age in Paris. Archival evidence released under Pres. Gorbachev revealed she was a fraud. I think everyone knew that all the time.

Of course the soldiers were just ordinary men who made a bad choice. I don’t know how they came to be called “White” Russians. Perhaps their flag was white? Note “Wrangel” was Baron Petr Wrangel, a general. He may be the man for whom the island in the Arctic Ocean was named. It was in “dispute” by the American Right and Far Right during the 1980s. No one else disputed it.

[edit on 3/30/2006 by donwhite]



posted on Mar, 31 2006 @ 11:03 AM
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I believe the White army is the proper term since White Russians refer to the Belorussians that live in the modern country of Belarus.

They were called the White army in respose to the Bolshevik Red army. After being defeated they disbanded or simply surrendered and many had to leave Russia. Some came to the US as I am a friend to the grand daughter of one of the White generals.



posted on Mar, 31 2006 @ 01:48 PM
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I know I am really reaching trying to piece all this together, and I may never be able to prove anything due to the confusion of the time and the destruction of records. What strikes me is this group was the elite of Imperial Russian society, a society which made great strides during the industrial revolution in both arts and sciences. Their surrender in WWI and their defeat by the Red Army set Russian (Soviet) industry and society back at least a generation.

Tesla came from this group, as well as many other prominent scientists and artists whose names escape me at the moment. What great untapped discoveries and innovations disappeared with them may never be known, or may be yet to be rediscovered.



posted on Mar, 31 2006 @ 04:29 PM
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actually tesla was serbian, but yes I understand you point. But what you have to remember is that by the time the russian civil war was raging - the writing was already on the wall. Between the "january" revolution where the provisional gov't took over from the Tsar and the "october" revolution where the bolsheviks took over many of the best and brighest either left russia, or died on the eastern front. Not to mention the others that were sent to the Tsarist gulags or the Jews killed or imprisoned during the pre wwI pogroms.

You also must remember that many of these best and brightest of the russian upper classes were not pro-Tsar. Men from well establshed families were often the ones crying the loudest for reform and sometimes rebellion ( good exampls are authors Turgenev and Cherneshevsky)

The reasons for this are deep and partly stems from emancipaiton of the serfs in 1861 which left many landholders broke. Men in the class including the two above as well as Herzen, Tolstoy and many others were known as the "superfluous men"



posted on Apr, 1 2006 @ 08:55 AM
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As the others said, nothing in particular happened to the "White Russians." It was a political faction and they merged into the countryside or moved as needed. So, in a sense, they're still around.

There's no "hole in the world" (Admiral Byrd was wrong -- the area has been thrououghly mapped and cruised by international vessels. My son's sub went that route several times.)

If I can be blunt, so much of Revelation has been pretty thoroughly dismissed as a screed that never came true. Yes, I know folks are trying to shoehorn various incidents into fitting the prophecy, but if you study the Old Testament, Gog is a tribe from the area north of Israel and joins up with another group of tribes from the same area and gets rather thoroughly defeated. This doesn't exactly mesh with Revelation -- which hasn't stopped people from trying to make it Russia or China or various other nations.
en.wikipedia.org...

Revelation was a controversial book when the Bible was originally being compiled. It was left in as the result of a compromise (after a number of excommunications and a hundred years of bitter factional wrangling.) There are churches that don't teach it or accept it. en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Apr, 1 2006 @ 09:22 AM
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I agree, it seems that Revelation walks that fine line between orhodoxy and the gnostic apocalypic tradition - and the fathers of the church knew it.

If they only knew just how many christian sects would end up heavily relying on something that was not considered part of the "core" - I think they would have changed their minds and banned it.



posted on Apr, 1 2006 @ 09:50 AM
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merged into the countryside or moved as needed


Exactly what I'm getting at. Were they dispersed, or did they remain a cohesive unit? The victors win the privilege of writing the record that becomes history, so we don't have their story. Anastasia, the 'last Romanov' could very well have been a smokescreen.



There's no "hole in the world"


I'm not saying there is. I'm saying there may be what has become a super-terrestrial society that has been hiding itself in the Arctic for 100 years. After the 1905 revolt, they may have seen what was coming and set up a fallback position north of Siberia, then set off the Tunguska Blast in 1908 as a 'don't even try to come up here' message. Then when things fell apart all the way in 1917 and they were unable to salvage Mother Russia from the Communists (or the Jews if you believe the propaganda spewed by the IHR), they retreated there.

Some of the more recent advances made in magnetics and field manipulation make it more likely they would have eventually been able to 'cloak' themselves and avoid detection. Again this is pure speculation. I am convinced there is more going on in the world than we are being led to believe and I am determined to pick at the edges of the veil, so to speak, and try to see what's behind it. If it makes me sound crazy, then so be it. I'm not saying is, I'm saying might be.

As I see it, there are two main factions, Zionists and anti-Semites, and they have been going at it throughout recorded history. The truth, to me, lies somewhere in the middle of all the lies each side tells about the other to make themselves look like the 'good guys'.



If I can be blunt


Of course you can, I am. Revelation is the chronicle of a vision that purportedly came to John around 100 CE while he was in exile on the Island of Patmos. It can easily be dismissed as the hallucinatory ramblings of a senile 92 year old man. That being said, I believe there is also a lot of wisdom contained in Revelation and maybe John just had a hard time, being who he was and when he was, describing all that was revealed to him in his vision.

As the Arctic Ice melts, more will be revealed. It is promised to us that we will know the truth, and the truth will set us free.



posted on Apr, 1 2006 @ 10:10 AM
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I think you are giving the White army too much credit, it was never a large cohesive unit - it was a scattered force of nobles, loyal cossacks and loyalist generals. When they could no longer keep fighting most surrendered some joined the red army and some left russia. Like I said previously I know the granddaughter of General Dmitri, the last to surrender.

The only thing the Romanovs at this late period saw comming was the next banquet. They were completely out of touch and the feeble attempts after 1905 (like setting up an impotent duma) show how little disregard they had for their subjects.

Even if they were to flee, the soviets had a much tighter hold on all of Russia than Nicholas ever had. And most of the high arctic islands such as Novaya Zemlya are nearly glowing with radioactivity from their illegal dumping. Don't forget siberia during the soviet era was littered with stalinist cities, huge gulags, secret military installations, nuclear dumping grounds, massive lumbering and mining operations - and don't forget numerous indiginous populations who had no love for the Tsar.



posted on Apr, 1 2006 @ 10:21 AM
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Like I said previously I know the granddaughter of General Dmitri, the last to surrender.


I'm happy for you. Is that like some kind of badge of authority?



The only thing the Romanovs at this late period saw comming was the next banquet


I am not speaking specifically of the Romanovs or the White army, and you are showing your true colors and orientation with this comment.



and don't forget numerous indiginous populations who had no love for the Tsar.


The statement you end this quote with could be construed to support my argument, and this type of environment would create a good buffer zone for the society I postulate may exist. I'm not saying this group were loyalists to the Tsarist regime, just that they may have been trying to escape the Communist takeover and keep their technology out of the hands of the usurpers.

[edit on 1-4-2006 by Icarus Rising]



posted on Apr, 1 2006 @ 10:50 AM
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What technology are you talking about? And what people, if you're not talking about Romanovs or the White Army? Do you realize how backward Tsarist Russia was before the revolution?

There were only a few industrial centers in the whole country, there wasn't a paved road outside Moscow city limits. The only way to get to siberia was by the worlds longest train ride.

The country was so (industrially) behind euorpe that the socialist movements (of which there were many) that identified with Marx and Engles had to modify the doctrine since russia was still a feudal (marxist terminology) society. It was a country of peasant farmers not steel workers. Plekhanov basicaly had to rewrite Marxism in order for it to take shape - so where is all this thechnology you speak of? Care to share any evidence?

Oh and on General Dmitri - take it for what you will, but at least I have a source close to the time period that actually witnessed these events. Have you've ever been displaced by war and famine? She has - not to mention uncles and cousins sent into exhile to freeze to death in siberia.

As far as you thinking I'm red, I'll leave this whole argument with this statement: Whatever horrible and cruel things Imperial Russia invented to make it's people suffer, the Soviets perfected.



posted on Apr, 1 2006 @ 12:59 PM
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Touchy, touchy. I've already made it clear who I talking about, not the Romanov Family (the figurehead), nor the White Army, but the elite of Imperial Russian Society they were supposed to be protecting.

As far as the technology I'm referring to, I've already mentioned Tesla and his work, as well.

I'm not calling you a Commie at all, just more speculation, based on your comments, as to your vested interests in the direction of this thread, if you have any. Maybe you are a Zionist, and you think I might be anti-Semitic.



Have you've ever been displaced by war and famine? She has - not to mention uncles and cousins sent into exhile to freeze to death in siberia.


Is this is the real reason you mention her and your connection to her, the emotional currency she provides you in your attempt to say "shame on me" for doubting you, or having the temerity to question your conclusions? Cue the violins! Trot out the sacrificial lamb! Oh, the suffering! End of story, right? Not!



Do you realize how backward Tsarist Russia was before the revolution?


No, I don't. During the Industrial Revolution, Tsarist Russia produced some of the finest scientific and artistic minds the world has ever known. They made huge advances in science and mathematics. Its a shame those advances never had an opportunity to benefit the average Russian peasant. The Revolution saw to that. Or was it because of that?



There were only a few industrial centers in the whole country, there wasn't a paved road outside Moscow city limits. The only way to get to siberia was by the worlds longest train ride.


Maybe they were working on ways around all these difficulties before things fell apart.

Peace to you, and my apologies if I have offended you.



posted on Apr, 2 2006 @ 06:13 AM
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Originally posted by Icarus Rising
'm not saying there is. I'm saying there may be what has become a super-terrestrial society that has been hiding itself in the Arctic for 100 years. After the 1905 revolt, they may have seen what was coming and set up a fallback position north of Siberia, then set off the Tunguska Blast in 1908 as a 'don't even try to come up here' message.


100 years is not a long time to set up something like and especially not with such a relatively small start. The Tunguska blast can more likely be attributed to Tesla or to alliens than to anything they could put together in that short space of time.


Then when things fell apart all the way in 1917 and they were unable to salvage Mother Russia from the Communists (or the Jews if you believe the propaganda spewed by the IHR), they retreated there.


Well the "communist revolution" was a wall street run and funded operation and i think it's probably a stretch to call the rockeffeler brothers Jews. Unless your one of those people who call all rich people ( what else could they BE?) Jews.



Some of the more recent advances made in magnetics and field manipulation make it more likely they would have eventually been able to 'cloak' themselves and avoid detection.


Well in THEORY yes but where would they get all the help from?


Again this is pure speculation. I am convinced there is more going on in the world than we are being led to believe and I am determined to pick at the edges of the veil, so to speak, and try to see what's behind it. If it makes me sound crazy, then so be it. I'm not saying is, I'm saying might be.


With pure speculation you can convince yourself of just about everything but i am glad to see your at least here to suffer the likely consequence of such speculation.
There is far more going on in the world than we are led to believe but i suspect you could do better focusing your attention on some more mundane questions first? I might have missed some of your earlier posts so i guess you could point out the basis of this speculation in more detail if you like.


As I see it, there are two main factions, Zionists and anti-Semites, and they have been going at it throughout recorded history.


Well i have seen nothing to indicate any of this as the whole Zionist thing is based on a book you should not be trusting much anyways. If these are the two factions you are trying to wave a story around then i think you have been led far from material that would really expose what is happening around you.


The truth, to me, lies somewhere in the middle of all the lies each side tells about the other to make themselves look like the 'good guys'.


If there are actually two such factions. I am sure you must have your sources ligned up for me.



As the Arctic Ice melts, more will be revealed. It is promised to us that we will know the truth, and the truth will set us free.


I just left out the other part as i have nothing positive to add.
As the arctic ice melts we might find some very interesting things but i am sure the truth will no more set us free then than it has so far. The truth is there to find even now and it is just human society avoiding it that makes it so obscure.

Stellar



posted on Apr, 2 2006 @ 10:42 AM
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With pure speculation you can convince yourself of just about everything


Wrong. With pure speculation you can delude yourself into thinking almost anything is true. That's why I started this thread with a question, not a statement. This is a quest for knowledge and understanding, not a foregone conclusion. I have my suspicions, and I'm on a fishing expedition.



100 years is not a long time


I disagree. Look at what all the societies we know about have accomplished in the last 100 years. What is commonplace today was science fiction 100 years ago, and the pace of discovery is accelerating.



you could do better focusing your attention on some more mundane questions first


Well, could I now? Thank you very much for the admonition. I reject it outright. My attention is focused and honed and acute.



I might have missed some of your earlier posts


Yes you have. I have been around and about more than you could possibly know, unless you've had a peek at my dossier.

The Zionist/anti-Semite conflict reference is based on my reading of the OT, and the last 60 years of activity as the Jews face off against their adversaries in the Holy Land. They and their opposition have been going at it throughout recorded history. Why would I need to line up sources?



The truth is there to find even now and it is just human society avoiding it that makes it so obscure.


Agreed. As I said earlier, I'm picking at the veil, fishing for a whale.



posted on Apr, 2 2006 @ 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by Icarus Rising
Wrong. With pure speculation you can delude yourself into thinking almost anything is true.


And most deluded people can tell the difference?


That's why I started this thread with a question, not a statement. This is a quest for knowledge and understanding, not a foregone conclusion. I have my suspicions, and I'm on a fishing expedition.


And my point being that it seems to be a fishing expedition without water in sight.


I disagree. Look at what all the societies we know about have accomplished in the last 100 years.


A couple billion people pitching in to help yes. Economy of scale being quite important imo.


What is commonplace today was science fiction 100 years ago, and the pace of discovery is accelerating.


The pace of discovery is actually pretty slow considering how many areas of knowledge are being almost completely avoided by main stream scientist.
That still does not explain how a small group of people would have put together a high tech industrial base.


Well, could I now? Thank you very much for the admonition. I reject it outright. My attention is focused and honed and acute.


Well i can understand if you feel insulted but after reading your posts here i felt i had to advise you to stick to more factual issues instead of going so far from any beaten track. My attention is also rather focused and honed IMO but i know where there are facts enough to work with and where not.


Yes you have. I have been around and about more than you could possibly know, unless you've had a peek at my dossier.


Well if this is any reflection on your past performance ( i always assume it's related) then we will disagree on more than a few things.


The Zionist/anti-Semite conflict reference is based on my reading of the OT, and the last 60 years of activity as the Jews face off against their adversaries in the Holy Land.


Reading of the OT? Do you think that the OT is a historical document that deals with real events in a logical and accurate manner? If so then i can see why you are where you seem to be. Jews are not ZIONIST ( another big scam visited on Jews everywhere) and confusing the two issues is why you have been so misled.


They and their opposition have been going at it throughout recorded history. Why would I need to line up sources?


Well that is only so according to the bible which is lies/fiction with a few folk tales mixed in. To imagine that you can form a historical view based on the bible is wasting time imo.


Agreed. As I said earlier, I'm picking at the veil, fishing for a whale.


And i am back where i started asking you to find water first , and see if you can manage some fish first, before moving on to try catch whales.

Stellar



posted on Apr, 2 2006 @ 12:16 PM
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And my point being that it seems to be a fishing expedition without water in sight.


This is not a point of fact, it is your opinion, and you are entitled to it.



A couple billion people pitching in to help yes. Economy of scale being quite important imo.


Wrong again. The bulk of these advances can be attributed to a very few, very intelligent, people.



considering how many areas of knowledge are being almost completely avoided by main stream scientist.


Agreed. Have you ever wondered why this is? The secret treaty of 1948 perhaps?



Well i can understand if you feel insulted


I don't feel insulted. You gave me some advice, I rejected it completely, no problema, no dilemma.



Well if this is any reflection on your past performance ( i always assume it's related) then we will disagree on more than a few things.


I reject this also, and consider you unqualified to even judge my dirty laundry. Your disagreement doesn't change my opinions.



Do you think that the OT is a historical document that deals with real events in a logical and accurate manner?


I think it has some validity, yes.



Jews are not ZIONIST


We may need to clarify terminology here.

Zionism - a movemnent formerly for establishing, now for supporting, the Jewish national state of Israel.

If you don't think most Jews are Zionists, then I think you may be talking out your butt.

I've been a fisherman all my life and have landed some whoppers in my time.

Now that you have successfully derailed my thread, why don't you just buzz off?



posted on Apr, 2 2006 @ 01:45 PM
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Maybe this belongs in one of the conspiracy threads?
INTRODUCTION. The Berlin Wall was taken down in 1989. This was symbolic of the loosening of Soviet control over Eastern Europe. All around, even the designated leaders of Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, the Baltics, Poland, and so on, were reluctant to either report the truth-on-the-ground to the Kremlin or to accept directions from the Kremlin.

And we do not give enough credit to Mikhail Gorbachev. Sometimes leaders in deep trouble at home try to foment trouble abroad, to give the public a point around which to rally. Pres. Gorbachev did not do that. He was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize and I for one think he richly deserved it. His successor, Boris Yeltsin, continued this very untraditional trait of character for Russian leaders.

On December 21, 1991, the successor to the USSR was formally introduced, the Commonwealth of Independent States. On Christmas Day, 1991, Mikhail Gorbachev formally resigned his post as President of the Union of Soviet Socialists Republics. As they say, it was all history. The October Revolution - 23rd of October, 1917, OS - is celebrated on November 7. NS. Seventy-four years, 1 month, 18 days.

Now, Ronald Reagan fans and John Paul 2 fans are each claiming their man “defeated” communism as proclaimed and exported by the USSR. Reagan’s fans completely discount the historical fact that American presidents from Harry Truman, without fail, opposed the machinations of the rulers in the Kremlin. The fans of the Pope John Paul II overlook that after he visited Poland in 1979, a full decade passed before the collapse of the communist government of Poland.

Poland’s communist government made its own first move to liberalize life in Poland in 1956 when it released thousands of imprisoned persons. A further liberalization - economic this time - occurred in the early 1970s. The Gdansk (old German city of Danzig) labor movement of the late 1970s saw a pipe fitter, Lech Walesa, find himself the head of government. Badly served by those around him, the movement lost most of its early impetus for reform and Walesa was a beaten man.

Polish people, perhaps next worst dealt with by history to Jewish people, never lost their religion and ultimately Poland’s own leaders permitted a greater liberality there than in any other place under the Soviet heel.

ARGUMENT. We heard a lot after the downfall of the USSR as we learned first hand how badly off the country was as a whole and economically and militarily in particular. Many times well informed people have speculated how our own Central Intelligence Agency could have “gotten it so wrong?” Instead of posing a danger to the very survival of the United States in particular and the West in general, the USSR was barely able to keep the gas tanks in the Kremlin’s ZIV fleet filled.

We began to hear the term “command” economy used when talking about the Soviet Union, and when talking about our own marvelous system, the term, “market” economy and very frequently in association with the word “free.” So it all came down to ‘command’ versus ‘market.’ Hmm? I didn’t know that.

It seems the CIA had consistently - since its inception in 1947 - and until caught by surprise either in 1989 or 1991 or both, misread the potentials of the USSR. About a half century. More or less. Not good for a multi-billion dollar agency employing a secret number but estimated to be close to 20,000. Mossad has less than 1,000 and MI6, fewer than 3,000. Maybe that is our problem, too many employees?

I cannot grant the CIA missed the obvious for so long. I suspect there were proper but secret briefings - eyes and ears only - for the succession of rather smart men who made it to the top of our system, and then, a second, quasi secret report that was frequently and conveniently “leaked” as domestic politics dictated. Don’t forget there are 6 House and 6 Senators who supposedly oversee the budget and internal affairs of the CIA. A re-run of the Lee Marvin 'Dirty Dozen?'

ASIDE. Sometimes I do wonder. The US was once said to have 20 human assets on the ground - spies - in Moscow. Over a 7-8 years period, Aldrich Ames - No. 6 in the CIA hierarchy - gave up every one of those agents! All of them were tortured, half of them summarily executed and the remainder imprisoned. Yet it was not the Internal Security Section of the CIA that caught him. That sweet tidbit of espionage and counter espionage remained for a defecting KGB agent to disclose. Hmm? Who “sleeps” the soundest, the internal security boys at the CIA or the FBI spy-catchers?

Q. Did the CIA miss it all, or did the CIA mislead us?

[edit on 4/2/2006 by donwhite]



posted on Apr, 2 2006 @ 03:42 PM
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First off, I agree with your assessment of Gorbachev. Quite a miraculous feat he managed in the transition from Soviet Union to the Commonwealth. He deserved the NPP.

I also agree that Walesa, for whatever reason, was not allowed to live up to his promise. Popular leaders of the people seldom are.

I'm not sure exactly how we got from the White Russians to this next bit, but I'm game.



I cannot grant the CIA missed the obvious for so long.


Me neither. I have a friend who was ATT6, detached, and claims he served in the Moscow sewers planting listening devices, so I believe we had a pretty good idea of what was going on over there.

For some reason, the PTB in the MIC felt it was important, apparently still think it is important, to keep us on a war footing, hence the Cold War and now the WOT, I mean the Long War, or whatever.

Do you think there is a threat out there they aren't telling us about, and they need the war footing and the invasions and the continued military investment in R&D to come up with new weapons systems to combat it?





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