'Real' Magic

Originally posted by aniiohsowtf
even praying to god is magic, willing something good... or bad to happen.

No, it is not. Wow, I got a warning before finishing editing, sorry guys. Give me a sec, it'll be complete.

[edit on 5-4-2006 by saint4God]

Originally posted by saint4God

No, it is not.

just leaving it at that? lame.

until i see your edit, which will probably tomorrow, this post will remain like this.

[edit on 5-4-2006 by aniiohsowtf]

Looks like I have to start a whole new response. You and the mods are on the stick, aren't ya? Kudos to both.

As I was saying, the Bible makes clear the differentiation between the two. Also, why would the Bible tell people not to use magik if prayer is magik? In addition, there are examples of those using magik in the Bible included with not only the reasons not to but the consequences which can be tested and verified...but per previous warnings issued, who would want to? If someone started a thread titled, "Let's all drive off a cliff!" then I'd most certainly respond, "Let's not!" All should know it's each of our own decision. These things are said out of love, not hate, anger or intent to disrupt. It's impossible to "talk over" someone here, we all get a chance to post and listen (or ignore) who we want.

Finally, those who have participated in both prayer to God and magik can tell you what the differences are.

Okay, done editing now, I'll be more careful in the future hitting the Preview button.

[edit on 5-4-2006 by saint4God]

i will add my two magical sense in to this


God even the crhistan god uses magic in his healing words this his mircales of cureing the blind and the lame to walk ..

what did you think it was some other wordly source its magic.. but i dont want to start a relgius war here i agree with aniiohsowtf she has the right outlook on magic it is the will of ever one the point i was trying to make is you have to want to use your own will and most people cant figure it out or think its evil so * shrugs*

thats my two cents

[edit on 5-4-2006 by Vash]

Originally posted by forestlady
He may not be a member but he seems to practice OTO or some other related magick - but then again it's just my impression, I don't know that much about OTO magick, but you do use Lesser Banishing rituals, etc. I think? I remember asking him about his trad, but I don't remember the answer.

MM is just plain ol' Ceremonial Magick. Really it's almost a generic version of Ceremonial Magick.. a little bit of this and a little bit of that. Modern Sex Magick has the same type of feel to me. Just for the record other than Sex Magick, the O.T.O. really doesn't have much magical teachings. Crowley used th A.'.A.'. for that.

Originally posted by saint4God
If someone started a thread titled, "Let's all drive off a cliff!" then I'd most certainly respond, "Let's not!" All should know it's each of our own decision. These things are said out of love, not hate, anger or intent to disrupt.

OK but if someone started a thread on salvation and wanted to know more about it, and I kept Posting "Don't do it! Don't fall for the Slave God!" because I truly believe the Christian God is a Slave God, and following him is dangerous, and want to stop people from becoming slaves. What kind of reaction do you think I'd get?

Honestly I'd bet I'd start raking in the warns faster that you are.

Finally, those who have participated in both prayer to God and magik can tell you what the differences are.

I have... and there are none.



[edit on 4/6/2006 by Cug]

@The Libra
We do agree on the following

Now the reality would appear to me that we both actually agree in full:
People need to be cautious when using magic.
People shouldn't use magic for overly selfish or capricious means.
People shouldn't do it because they think it will make them cool.

But you're explenation leaves a lot of holes. Seeing that Right/Wrong and Good/Evil are subjective opinions it was indeed a bad choice of words. But stating that it was only due to my experiences or opinions that what you said was incorrect is not so. The way you explained didn't show that you have the experience within the world of magick. At least not the amount to give you a true understanding of what it is. If so you'd dismiss is for reasons that showed your own oppinion about true teachings that you disagreed with.

The analogy of a gun still holds no ground. It is the individual that is in charge of the gun and he is the one that pulls the trigger whether it be by choice or due by accident. Someone who has training in a gun understands how to reduce the danger a gun can have when held in unqualified hands. Ergo removing bullets from the chamber as well as the safety pin for extra measurements. The only way you can then hurt an individual with a gun is by making the choice of throwing the weapon at someone. It never is the fault of the gun to kill it is the person who chooses to own the gun and disregard any safety precautions and decides to pull the trigger. The gun is an inanimate object and has no will itself nor has it any conciousness to decide for what it is about to do. There is NO symbiant relation other then the one you create yourself in your own psyche. And by doing so the owner of the gun is still the one who makes the final decisions of what the gun does.

The same goes with universal energies. You have to take precautions in the way of choosing your words carefully leaving little to no room for faulty interpetations of your "wish". Second take precaution to make sure everything is prepared properly sealing of many holes and mazes into your workings. Universal energies always take the most direct route to the goal, but when you seal of many possibilities you'll be directing it into the direction you want with little to no side effects. You can't tell it 100% where to go to, but you can close of doors of possibilities reducing the room for the energy to move to. Similar to shooting a bullet where you can use a scope to improve your aim on the target.

The excample of casting rain shows to me that you're talking about inexperienced practitioners of magick. One who has the experience will also study the scientific counterparts so a study of basic astronomy and weather is stressed on weather witches/mages. They will also be taught the cause and effect and a mage will ALWAYS try to find the balans. A proper practitioner understands how it works, the consequences and will not "play" with weather and the likes unless there is a real need for it (which is seldom). Just because childish practitioners do, people who will quit eventually, doesn't mean a proper practitioner does so as well.

Most people do for sex and power to stand out. Hmmm this applies mainly to teenagers who are finding their way in life. Those people will drop out eventually when they figure out that true Magick is not like how society has formed an image of the practice. I can't believe idiotic adepts like that are even taken seriously, but seeing they always come with bad experiences society jumps on it in order to be able to cast a negative judgement on the entire Occult stream. Most practitioners, luckily, do understand what magick is and use it as a means of self exploration and understanding in order to grow and also as a means to connect with their divince self and the divinity of the universe. It's a spiritual path like there are so many others available in life.

Can you honestly tell me, with a straight face, that there aren't at least a healthy portion of "magic users" who got into the whole mess because they ultimately wanted to get laid? Especially among teen agers? I sure as hell did.

Yes I can say that with a straight face because I know that that portion aren't the majority nor are they proper re-presentitives of the true teachings. They are fools who were attracted to ideas generated by society and when they noticed that true magick is a lot different then what everyone beliefs it to be they drop it. Just because you studied it with false pretencies like so many, and get bitten in your arse by reality, doesn't mean every occultist or magick user is like that. It's similar to people doing alchemy because they want to turn lead into gold which is a fools way because alchemy is about spiritual growth through the Great Work turning the leaded personality of an individual slowly into the golden divine soul. A lot of symbolic talk which outsiders take way to literal.

Life has many problems and the answers and solutions to it are very simple. This is not a fools way. Each situations comes along with emotions and those emotions are experienced overwhelmingly and combined with the hectic experience of the issues it becomes very difficult to see. If people did enough psycho analysing and exploration of oneself they'd understand themselves and others. I mean TRULY understand oneself and not like everyone thinks they do and still wear so many masks. By understanding your emotions and looking beyond it you will be able to locate the true problems which caused the issue and thus you can solve it quite easily. How often doesn't it occur that someone gives another individual advice which is so simple, but the other individual dismisses that advice as nonsence. Weeks or months later the individual will solve their issue and see that the advice was actually correct. You don't need to be old in physical age to understand this, go through enough hardships and self development and you'll figure it out yourself.

As for me spelling Magick with a K shows absolutely nothing about whether someone is a teen goth. Making such statements, along others in your reply shows to me you're to lazy to read up. Everything pertaining what magick is and why it is spelled with a K is already explained. Just read the very short description on the very first page about the history of the CK at the end.

Okay, now thrice you accuse me of prejudice, and yet you support, each time, the very contention that you accused of being false. Yes. A vast majority of people who get into magic do so because of the wrong reasons (of which fantasy figures can be included). That was my whole bloody point. I fail to see how that is anything more than observation and warning.

If you warn, warn for proper reasons. I explained many times that those people are not proper re-presentitives. They know nothing about the occult or magick. It's like asking a simple monk who just studied casually for 2 months in a monastary of what the religious leader thinks and does who has been practicing for over 30 years. You really think the monk has a true grasp of what the teachings he follows is about? Hardly.

-------------

Kraig's book is one that has been acknowledged as a book which is to be studied to get the foundations down. But it is as loved by as many people as it is hated by. It seems Kraig has a certain undertone which bothers certain people, but I personally haven't noticed that myself. He seems like a decent guy who knows what he is talking about. So his background doesn't really matter to me in this case.

About the O.T.O. I got a funny story about that. The group I was a part of for 4 months at one time said that they were under attack from OTO mages from the future. I just said there thinking... "sure". Later Dion Fortune explained that people who think they are under siege in such a manner is a psychological manifestation of the inner troubles brewing within the group. I had to laugh at that because that was actually true and the funny part is...the group still has no clue. This just shows the incompetence of many practitioners who give the rest of us proper and dedicated practitioners a bad name.

It looks as if I'm trying to get in a role of victem here but I'm not. Just trying to show the faulty ideas many people have about magick and it's true practitioners. But unfortunetly there are still many people who don't look beyond their own nose and got no clue.
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@Vash

I can agree wholeheartedly. There is the all which is everything and is all around us and more. With everything you do you'll be using a part of this all, also called God or Allah or whatever people belief in. The name you use to utilize the Universal energies is not important because the fact remains that everyone uses the same energies.

You can utilize this energy by prayer or by a minor magickal ritual or by simply living your life like most people do. Each thought we have generates an effect in conjuction with the universal energies. Whether you're aware of doing so or not is not important.

------
Ok now lets take the discussion to a more fun lvl. The holidays that are a part of the many streams.

Many wiccans celebrate Esbats and Sabbats. Esbats are done almost monthly celibrating the new moon and the changes of nature. However many astrologica studies show that there are 13months and 13 zodiac signs however the scientific community decided to make it 12 to make it easier. The reason the moons are used to indicate a certain season and change in nature was because in the very distant past there were no clocks or means to measure time and seasons. With a certain moon the farmers and people living in the fields knew what they had to do like plowing the fields or planting seeds and such. Paganus means They who live on the fields after all.

Sabbats are associated with witches and wiccans however these celebrations are not theirs. Sabbats are from celtic folklore and celibrate seasonal change and equinoxes. These festivals were celibrated by people who lived on the island currently known as united kingdom where most of the celtic lore is attributed to. Druids and certain mages and the residents of those areas celibrated the equinoxes. Witches/Wiccans choose to celibrate it as well, but they are not the soul "owners" of it. The festivities for a witch/wiccan are the Esbats. They just happen to choose to celibrate Sabbats as well and over time got seen as a witch specific celibration as well.

Recently there was the celibration of Ostara a pagan festival which the christians adopted as Easter. During this time you will make eggnog, use a lot of various colors with symbolic meaning of fertility and new beginnings such as jellow. Any ritual performed will have a lot of symbolism and will be aimed towards Ostara. During Beltaine there will be a celibration towards the sun and rise of new oppertunities and friendships and hope. Each sabbat is also a time on which you take a step back and take your time to contemplate about everything that festival symbolizes.

Paganistic festivities also celibrated in their own ways by christians and other religions. Only difference seems to be, not stating as a fact that it is so, is that pagans are more conciously active with each festival instead of taking it all for granted.

Once more I'm not a pagan nor an witch/wiccan but a good book that I can recommend about this is "The Sabbats: A Witch's Approach to Living the Old Ways" by Edain Mccoy. THE SABBATS explores the origins of the eight solar festivals of old Europe; the equinoxes, the solstices, and the four crossquarter days of Samhain, Imbolg, Beltaine, and Lughnasadh. Recipes, crafts, ritual ideas, spells, and party suggestions accompany each chapter as a new festival is explored in depth. Full ritual texts for both covens and solitaries are included.



[edit on 6-4-2006 by Enyalius]

Originally posted by forestlady
He may not be a member but he seems to practice OTO or some other related magick - but then again it's just my impression, I don't know that much about OTO magick, but you do use Lesser Banishing rituals, etc. I think? I remember asking him about his trad, but I don't remember the answer.

At the time he was using a combination of traditional Golden Dawn techniques, mixed with Tantric sex magick and BOTA techniques. He mentioned AMOOKOS to me and gave me some of its background, but as mentioned, that was a long time ago when his "Modern Magick" was first published, and I don't remember much about it.

The sex magick techniques he mentioned in both "Modern Magick" and "Modern Sex Magick" strongly resemble those practiced by O.T.O., but by other non-Thelemic groups as well.

Anyway back to Real Magic...I've talked with Don a number of times about magick (he's an acquaintance of mine) and we agree that more evil magick has been done by the subconscious than the conscious, meaning we inadvertently practice harmful magick when we wish someone evil. I haven't found too many other mages who think about that aspect of magick.

In my experience, I have found that most occultists would agree with this. I remember Crowley somewhere saying that our daily subconscious "drippings" work more powerful Magick than the most beautiful, sublime ceremony could ever even come close to matching (which is also one of the reasons that Crowley stressed meditation and yoga in order to clear the mind of negativity...if we perform a ceremonial working to accomplish some end, yet continually worry that the Work will have no effect, then obviously we cancel our working out by sending mixed information to the subconscious). This would be true for anything else, even in the Profane, who work in Magick all the time without even knowing it, not understanding the Magickal nature of Thought and Will. Thus, the importance of "positive thinking".


[edit on 6-4-2006 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by saint4God
Also, why would the Bible tell people not to use magik if prayer is magik?

the bible also tells you not to eat pork, and inadvertently tells you that sacrificing your son or giving up your daughters for rape is good.

If someone started a thread titled, "Let's all drive off a cliff!" then I'd most certainly respond, "Let's not!" All should know it's each of our own decision.

yes. but you are thinking of magic differently than i am. consider for a second the possibility that magic is really only will power, and that the idea of god stems from the ability to use that power affectively. in that situation, then, prayer would be magic.

These things are said out of love, not hate, anger or intent to disrupt. It's impossible to "talk over" someone here, we all get a chance to post and listen (or ignore) who we want.

indeed, no harm done.

Finally, those who have participated in both prayer to God and magik can tell you what the differences are.

i actually have done both. they seem the same to me. you say "dear god, please heal timmy" and i say "dear (random healing goddess from a random pantheon), please take these herbs and heal timmy." the only difference is the herbs.

Originally posted by Enyalius
@The Libra
We do agree on the following

Now the reality would appear to me that we both actually agree in full:
People need to be cautious when using magic.
People shouldn't use magic for overly selfish or capricious means.
People shouldn't do it because they think it will make them cool.

Good. That means we can now have a rational discussion on magic.
For a moment, you had me worried.

Originally posted by Enyalius
The way you explained didn't show that you have the experience within the world of magick. At least not the amount to give you a true understanding of what it is. If so you'd dismiss is for reasons that showed your own oppinion about true teachings that you disagreed with.

Due to some grammatical errors in the last sentance, I'm not really sure what you're trying to say, but I'll hazard a guess. You're saying that I don't appear to have enough personal experience with magic to offer a valid explanation on how it works, because if I did I would offer my own opinion on teachings or style?

If that's the case, you're sorely mistaken.

I've walked the walk, talked the talk, made the same mistakes as everyone else, if not more. If I haven't gone on about specific traditions, it's because I don't want to get into a pissing contest over trivial crap.

Suffice it to say I've studied magic long enough to realize that no one tradition is correct, tools are unneccesary, and most alleged practitioners are full of s--t.

Magic doesn't care about your path/tradition/religion/dogma. It doesn't care if your method is through dancing nekkid in a doesil circle, or if you invoke the elements, or if you use a wand, or a cauldron, or an athame, or a frickin' spider-man action figure.

Tools (athame, mandalas, etc) and Dogma (chants, walks, dances) are nothing more than methods by which to get the caster in a frame of mind where they can accept the ability to redirect energy towards point X.

So technically, the devout Farreakazoid Cult who think the Mother Wheel Ship can beam miracles down to Earth, and contacts them to direct the miracles via the precise squeezing of a water wiggle and eating of chocolate cake, is just as capable of working "magic" as the recluse hermit wiccan who is descended from witches and trained under Scott Cunningham himself, and uses an altar, athame, boline, etc, that have been passed down to him from the age of Pre-Catholic Europe.

Originally posted by Enyalius
The analogy of a gun still holds no ground.

Fine, it holds no ground. I'm not about to argue semantics, and don't really care enough to prove if I'm right about something that was only supposed to be an illustration of how magic is a tool to make use of energy and can be dangerous in the wrong hands, regardless of intentions.

If you can at least agree with that, then there's no point in arguing the whole gun thing.

Originally posted by Enyalius
A proper practitioner understands how it works, the consequences and will not "play" with weather and the likes unless there is a real need for it (which is seldom).

Exactly. A proper practitioner will do their best to comprehend the consequences and minimize the collateral damage of whatever they do with magic. Unfortunately those are few and far between, because not all of them realize what they are dealing with, and those that do realize, do not always care. And of those that care, there are even a percentage that get off on causing that collateral damage. The percentage of "proper" practitioners are extremely few and far between. The only saving grace is that usually the ones who don't understand also don't have what it takes to pull it off.

Originally posted by Enyalius
Most people do for sex and power to stand out. Hmmm this applies mainly to teenagers who are finding their way in life. Those people will drop out eventually when they figure out that true Magick is not like how society has formed an image of the practice.

Agreed on both of those counts. No more need be said then.

Originally posted by Enyalius
Most practitioners, luckily, do understand what magick is and use it as a means of self exploration and understanding in order to grow and also as a means to connect with their divince self and the divinity of the universe. It's a spiritual path like there are so many others available in life.

Disagree on all those counts.

First off, I'd like you to qualify "Most". In almost 20 years, across three states, and several cities in each states, I have yet to meet more than a handful of "proper" practitioners, and no two of them held the same "religious" beliefs.

I needn't tell you how many pretenders I've run across. If you've spent any time in these circles at all, you know exactly how frequently you run into an alleged practioner. And don't even get me started about the crap you find on the internet.

I've also taught a lot of students in the past. One turned out good and proper. The rest were either weeded out as being kids wanting a way to be different or cool, or lacked the maturity to handle a dangerous tool. I'd have just as readily turned them away from using a circular saw.

A lot of new agers want to think they're better than the stock that came before them, but unfortunately I see the exact same thing happening to them that happened to Christians and Muslims. Repetition of the words without truly taking them to heart or truly thinking about them.

Originally posted by Enyalius

Can you honestly tell me, with a straight face, that there aren't at least a healthy portion of "magic users" who got into the whole mess because they ultimately wanted to get laid? Especially among teen agers? I sure as hell did.

Yes I can say that with a straight face because I know that that portion aren't the majority nor are they proper re-presentitives of the true teachings.

Sigh... I swear some of this is like talking to a tape recorder.
Re-read the question. I didn't say majority. I didn't say proper.

Originally posted by Enyalius
They are fools who were attracted to ideas generated by society and when they noticed that true magick is a lot different then what everyone beliefs it to be they drop it. Just because you studied it with false pretencies like so many, and get bitten in your arse by reality, doesn't mean every occultist or magick user is like that.

I never said "every". I said a healthy portion. A significant enough portion that it bears warning potentials about it ahead of time.

Now granted, originally I got in for the wrong reason. However, I continued my studies of it for the right reasons. Unfortunately, because there are still a vast majority that get in it for the wrong reasons, I got out of it. Any magic work I do now is purely solo, and only in the most dire of circumstances. Why? Because of all the damned fools who get into magic for the wrong reason.

Now I'm not saying a majority get into it for sex. I'd be willing to bet it is less than half. I do, however, stand by my statement that most people get into it for the wrong reasons. Perhaps later on they choose the right reasons, if they find a good teacher, or have enough character to soul-search themselves and be honest with themselves. But in the beginning, most choose the wrong reasons to start down the path of using magic.

Originally posted by Enyalius
It's similar to people doing alchemy because they want to turn lead into gold which is a fools way because alchemy is about spiritual growth through the Great Work turning the leaded personality of an individual slowly into the golden divine soul. A lot of symbolic talk which outsiders take way to literal.

Meh... The Book of Lambspring was a good read.

But be careful on assuming your interpretation is the only correct one.
Since the original plates were an anthology, and the actual verbage added a few years later, it could mean many things. I seriously doubt literal lead to gold has anything to do with true alchemy. But not all alchemy is about transformaion of the soul. This however, has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

Originally posted by Enyalius
Life has many problems and the answers and solutions to it are very simple.

...By understanding your emotions and looking beyond it you will be able to locate the true problems which caused the issue and thus you can solve it quite easily.

Bullsh-t.

Tell anyone with a chronic incurable illness or ailment that they "just don't understand themselves fully enough". How about you go tell that to my aunt who is currently dying of ALS, can no longer so much as speak, much less feed, clothe, move, or wipe herself, but still has a mind as sharp as before it took effect. I'm sure she'll be able to appreciate that, really, her problems are just the result of her not understanding herself, her fellow man, or the situation in full.

Tell the millions of children in Africa who get a choice between dying of starvation, being sold into sex slavery, or joining a militia, that they just don't understand how easy it is to solve their problems.

Tell me one more time how easy all of life's problems are, you pretentious little child. Go on. Tell me. Tell them. Tell the entire world. We would LOVE to hear your solution to everything, and how easy it is!

If you honestly believe this, then you know Jack Sh-t about the real world, kid.

I just wish I could see the look on your face the day you encounter a "real" problem, and not some little self-inflicted drama that you can overcome in the space of a few minutes of self-reflection.

Originally posted by Enyalius
You don't need to be old in physical age to understand this, go through enough hardships and self development and you'll figure it out yourself.

Says the kid with no concept of hardship.

Originally posted by Enyalius
As for me spelling Magick with a K shows absolutely nothing about whether someone is a teen goth. Making such statements, along others in your reply shows to me you're to lazy to read up.

On the contrary. I've probably got more in my personal library than most new age bookstores have on their shelves. I could give three hoots about whether someone named "RavenWolf SilverMoon" tells me to spell magic with a "K" in the same book she suggests using puffy paint to make ceremonial robes. I could give three hoots whether Buckner, Gardner, Cunningham, Crowley, Valiente, or spells it with a "Y" or a "J" or a "K" or three "F's" and a silent "Q"!

In point of fact, the spelling of magic with a "K" says the exact same thing to me as your own statement. Too lazy to read up. The person spelling it with a "K" is doing so for one of two reasons:

Because someone else told them to.

Because they thought they'd be "different".

As you get older, you come to realize that both are asinine reasons.

Originally posted by Enyalius
If you warn, warn for proper reasons. I explained many times that those people are not proper re-presentitives. They know nothing about the occult or magick.

I am warning for the proper reasons. I know there are proper representatives of magic out there. I'm one of them, if in a rather jaded and wary sort of way. I'm not worried about those who are "proper". I'm worried about those who aren't. Why the hell would I warn someone against proper training, and what on earth made you think I had?

Originally posted by Enyalius
It's like asking a simple monk who just studied casually for 2 months in a monastary of what the religious leader thinks and does who has been practicing for over 30 years. You really think the monk has a true grasp of what the teachings he follows is about? Hardly.

If you were as well read as you like to pretend you are, you would find this is actually quite a common occurrance throughout monastaries. Or have you not gotten around to Eastern cultures yet?


Okay... now I've gotten personal on a few notes in this post, I'll admit that. So before it degenerates into a flame war, let me say this:

You sound like someone who is on the right track, but are too naive and convinced of your own infallibility to be a healthy teacher at the moment.

You sound like you want to achieve good with magic, but lack the life experience neccesary to understand the scope of real-life problems.

You sound well read in a very narrow field, which has regretably limited your vision to that of what you are told to believe.

Now I am willing to consider the possiblity that I am wrong about you, but your responses to date have given me this impression.

Originally posted by thelibra
You sound like someone who is on the right track, but are too naive and convinced of your own infallibility to be a healthy teacher at the moment.

You sound like you want to achieve good with magic, but lack the life experience neccesary to understand the scope of real-life problems.

You sound well read in a very narrow field, which has regretably limited your vision to that of what you are told to believe.

Now I am willing to consider the possiblity that I am wrong about you, but your responses to date have given me this impression.

Since we agree on the global picture and we stated out opinions about the fillers. I'll only adress the last few parts.

I am indeed on the right track and am far from naive. It is true that I don't know everything and I don't mind admitting it. Even though I've studied about 173 books so far, do daily meditational excercises, hone my "paranormal gifts" and do weekly ritualistic excercises I still have a long way to go because this is nothing but the basics so far. And not even the basics of everything there is to know. And yes I'm still searching for the path which I want to specialise in. And just like you I am a solitary practitioner not a part of any group even though I had a few invitations. This is because I don't feel right about the quality about todays groups which I find all over the place like weeds. And the one group I was a part of for 4-5 months showed me just that.

I don't want to achieve anything with magick other then personal growth and development. That which I learn won't be used to cause harm to anyone or upset the natural balance. On occasions I do help people where possible such as I did with the mother of a good friend who was dying and I was asked to make sure she had a good passing over and arrived where she was ment to go and ease the pain during the transition.

As for real life problems...I might be "young" but I did have a fair share so far. I died and came back, I had severe financial issues which caused the government to get involved and confiscate everything, I had to deal with my grandmother getting a tumor to which she lost all her memories and how to use her motoric systems which I helped her to re-learn and see her as if she was a baby in an old womans body. just to name a few. Dealing with problems easy isn't only about self reflecting, but in general making sure your emotions don't overwhelm you so that you can asses the situation calmly and come to the simple solutions which are present.

The issue of people in 3rd world countries is simple, but it means that people have to stop being so damn greedy and materialistic and crave for power and excecute the oh so very simple solution which is to share everything equally. And to cause the change of mindset by the people in charge means indeed that those people need to understand their own shortcomings from which the need for power and greed comes from. Now this won't happen because those people are idiots and got way to accustomed to their fastfood life styles of which those poor people have to deal with. You can send all the money and help over there but those rich people will only keep it for themselves and say on paper that they distributed it all while in fact they did not.

However there is another side to the story which I've also experienced in parts of turkey and tunisia. People are very poor there and I wanted to give them some money. Due to the economy there my few coins ment a months pay to them. But I was told not to share my money because it would upset the economy there. people have grown up and this situation and got used to it and they manage just fine. It was very odd to see that those people with nothing and actually looked pretty happy. And one family I spoke with even said that they were. But we got so used to wealth that we can't see a life possible with less and thus feel bad for people who have less. Two different worlds and life styles.

And I understand that I can't be a teacher in the sense of teaching someone everything. However I teach people the basics and give them the tools needed so they can move on themselves from that point. Like a stepping stone, someone who makes sure those new adepts won't get overwhelmed by all that (false) information. And I don't just accept anyone they need to convince me that the reason for them to be interested is not induced by fantasy figures.



[edit on 6-4-2006 by Enyalius]

Originally posted by Enyalius
Since we agree on the global picture and we stated out opinions about the fillers. I'll only adress the last few parts.

Excellent. Okay, we are making good progress then.

Originally posted by Enyalius
Even though I've studied about 173 books so far, do daily meditational excercises, hone my "paranormal gifts" and do weekly ritualistic excercises I still have a long way to go because this is nothing but the basics so far. And not even the basics of everything there is to know. And yes I'm still searching for the path which I want to specialise in.

I don't know that any of us ever will, to be honest. What we seek cannot be found in any book or turn of phrase. Not all questions will be answered, nor will training ever be truly completed. When "enlightenment" (or whatever it is called in whichever path) truly occurs, it will most likely be during an unexpected moment, with little or no bearing on one's studies, tools, or dogma.

An example: A student asked his master "What is Buddha?" The master beat him with a stick. The student was then enlightened.

Originally posted by Enyalius
I don't want to achieve anything with magick other then personal growth and development.

Now I am curious, if magic is just a tool, how can it help you achieve personal growth and development? I can see how religion, dogma, spirituality, philosophy, meditation...all of these things lead to personal growth and development... but magic?

I have a circular saw at home. It's a great tool for certain projects, a terrible tool for others. While using it I may have thoughts that lead to a deeper understanding of myself, but I do not use it just in order to have these thoughts. Generally, I'm trying to get something done, and the rest follows suit.

Originally posted by Enyalius
That which I learn won't be used to cause harm to anyone or upset the natural balance. On occasions I do help people where possible such as I did with the mother of a good friend who was dying and I was asked to make sure she had a good passing over and arrived where she was ment to go and ease the pain during the transition.

This brings up an entirely new ethical question and one it seems you may have some interesting views on. What constitutes upsetting the natural balance?

For instance, let's say I have the ability to cure a deadly illness in a patient. Should I? Have I then upset the natural order by artificially extending their life with magic? My personal feelings in this have been that I should not cure that which is normally fatal. The less timelines that I'm responsible for, the better. However, I have no qualms about curing normal ills.

Originally posted by Enyalius
Dealing with problems easy isn't only about self reflecting, but in general making sure your emotions don't overwhelm you so that you can asses the situation calmly and come to the simple solutions which are present.

Okay, I believe I have misunderstood you then. You appear to be talking about coping as opposed to solving. Ergo, you can easily cope with any problem, but actually solving it is much more difficult.

That I can get behind. In Texas we call it "Cowboy up". Or apparently, if one is President, the saying is "When the going get tough, the uh... uh... the tough... uh... get back to work or something..."

Originally posted by Enyalius
The issue of people in 3rd world countries is simple, but it means that people have to stop being so damn greedy and materialistic and crave for power and excecute the oh so very simple solution which is to share everything equally. And to cause the change of mindset by the people in charge means indeed that those people need to understand their own shortcomings from which the need for power and greed comes from. Now this won't happen because those people are idiots and got way to accustomed to their fastfood life styles.

Ummm... I'm not sure where to start on this one. Third world countries barely have restaurants, much less a fast food lifestyle.

The problems yes, boil down essentially to people. You can say that about almost any problem on Earth.

"...'X' would not be so bad if only 'Y' were a better person."

Yes, if everyone was free of human ego, there would probably be a lot less problems in the world. There would be no greed that causes man to wish himself set above other men. There would be no jealousy that made man wish to achieve what others before him had. There would be no pride that made men unwilling to accept help or admit when they were wrong. There would be no nepotism, only the best at their field would be allowed to work in it.

We'd also be ants. Everything would be for the betterment of the colony. Your entire life would, from cradle to grave, serve one express purpose to which you would work every day, without pause except to eat and sleep, and you wouldn't find it odd or sad in the least. There would be no Shakespeares, no Einsteins, no Queen Elizabeths, no George Washingtons... all you would have would be units cut and molded to their purpose without a desire or need to become anything more.

Now, short of lobotomizing everyone and turning them into a hive mind, try to come up with a solution to deal with humans in their present state of capability. I realize it's very easy for you to cope with the fact that these problems exist. What I challenge you now for is a solution.

Originally posted by thelibra
Due to some grammatical errors in the last sentance, I'm not really sure what you're trying to say,

You know that always seems to happen when someone mentions poor grammar/spelling.

Tools (athame, mandalas, etc) and Dogma (chants, walks, dances) are nothing more than methods by which to get the caster in a frame of mind where they can accept the ability to redirect energy towards point X.

And that's why it's necessary to find the type of magick that fits you. For me I like the rituals of Ceremonial Magick, I'm guessing you like something more freeform. Viva La Difference!

This is a good example of why it's hard to explain what magick is, how it works, and what a practitioner does. Remember back on page one where I mentioned it would very easy to get an argument going about magick? Good example here

First off, I'd like you to qualify "Most". In almost 20 years, across three states, and several cities in each states, I have yet to meet more than a handful of "proper" practitioners, and no two of them held the same "religious" beliefs.

Well in over 20 years several states, 3 countries, I've have only met a handfull of magic wankers. But then I don't really hang out with teenagers (Wild guess 80% of the dabblers), or anyplace Magick is a "scene" or "Lifestyle."

In point of fact, the spelling of magic with a "K" says the exact same thing to me as your own statement. Too lazy to read up. The person spelling it with a "K" is doing so for one of two reasons:

Because someone else told them to.

Because they thought they'd be "different".

Why not Magick? You got to call is something. If you want to call it "Vega" fine but no one will know what the h you're talking about

I'm not worried about those who are "proper". I'm worried about those who aren't?

The worst those who aren't "proper" can do is scare themselves when they try to summon a demon. If you don't take the time to study the basics, (Such as preventing a bad side effect) it's likely your not going to take the time to really learn how things works.

::Edit: oops, you said that already but it is worth repeating so I'll leave it in.::

Oh as a side. I don't recommend any Magick for anyone who is not an adult. (I can't put an age to it.. some 16 y.o.'s are adults and some 50 y.o.'s are still children.)

@Libra

Enlightentment is such a big word used in so many different contexts, but what does being enlightent mean? Everyone has different definitions of it so I shall share my definition in order to make it known what I mean by the word when I use it.

To me being enlightent means having a complete understanding of oneself and thus have a firm grasp of their ego. You will see your positive as well as negative aspects and work at them to cause a change within yourself and grow into the individual you want to be. By understanding oneself and being free of the pains caused by emotions and situations you'd normally not understand you will be "ego"-free as some call it. You'll also gain a great deal of insights into society and other individuals. Being enlightent to me is having found balance in many points of life which consists of so many unhealthy dualities and attachments. Leading a life with a healty set of moral values and in general live healthy and balanced you will reduce the amount of emotional and psychological blockages within yourself allowing the universal energies to flow more freely and effectively within oneself and thus you'll slowly start to experience more and more "paranormal/magickal" aspects of life.

But you won't be free of ego when being enlightent according to my definition of it, but you'd have found balance and understanding of it. Thus an ant-like hive mentality is not something that would occur in my point of view. People will still be busy with their own lives but will be more willing and capable of helping others and society.

It is also true that in 3rd world countries there are no countries and fastfood way of life. But it was not them I was addressing with those statements but their political leaders. Those leaders withhold all aid given to those countries and keep it for themselves and in due time started to live greedy materialistic lives at the cost of the people on the streets.

The magickal way of life is more then just a tool. It is a tool when you start to perform rituals such as working with Goetic spirits. But it's only a tool in the esoterical part of magick. The other aspect of the magickal philosophy is a lot of study as a scholar as well as exploration and research of oneself during the included teachings such as meditation, yoga, self-hypnotism and more. It is also stressed that you need to be strong of will to perform the esoterical aspect of magick and thus psycho analysing is stressed to do as well. So self development and growth is a big part of magick as well. At least to me it is because I can't belief how often I have had to confront myself and learn to understand myself and my thoughts/emotions towards specific situations. To diagnose why I felt attacked or hurt in certain situations.

Natural Balance is ethical indeed. Take weather magick for excample. I can cause rain to stop but what would happen if I did? The plants need the water to grow, water is needed to cool down temperatures and reduce drought and keep the area habitable. What happens if I regularly keep the rain away because I don't want to get wet and cold when I'm outside. The fauna will have a harder time to grow, the atmosphere will get heavier and dryer which also effects the human mindset to some degree, the crops of farmers might dry out or be less healthy and less will be able to be taken from the fields for sale which effects the economy to some degree. There is so much to take into consideration when doing even the smallest things, but almost no one oversees the effects that follow and think "I don't want to get wet and dislike rain so I make the rain stop" and that kind of selfish thinking will only cause more harm then good. And to gain the correct mindset you need to look within and do self research and analysing why you have those selfish thoughts so that you can deal with it and get rid of that mindset to make proper decisions the next time.

As for healing people it becomes more of an ethical decision because you're directly active with another human being instead of having in-direct effect on an entire society which will feel more distant to yourself. I help people will minor physical injures but I stay away from people with more drastic health issues. 1. I'm not 100% proficient with my healing abilities and diagnosing so will probably cause more harm then good anyway. 2. the medicine world is capable enough to deal with most health issues. 3. those who can't be healed well...a lot of personal thoughts and theories are placed here which I won't share. I'm not a fan of prolonging lives artificially and am someone who would pull the plug on a coma patient when their braincells deteriorated beyond a certain point because I experienced 12 hours of coma myself and it is anything but pleasant to be inside darkness, hearing family members and friends in the distance and not being able to respond with sounds or being able to move a single muscle.

[edit on 7-4-2006 by Enyalius]

Originally posted by Cug

Originally posted by thelibra
Due to some grammatical errors in the last sentance, I'm not really sure what you're trying to say,

You know that always seems to happen when someone mentions poor grammar/spelling.

Very true. My own spelling is not that great. But the actual sentence I was referring to was:

"If so you'd dismiss is for reasons that showed your own oppinion about true teachings that you disagreed with."

I'm not one to nitpick on grammar or spelling if I can glean the meaning, I just honestly have no idea what that sentence meant.

Originally posted by Cug

Tools (athame, mandalas, etc) and Dogma (chants, walks, dances) are nothing more than methods by which to get the caster in a frame of mind where they can accept the ability to redirect energy towards point X.

And that's why it's necessary to find the type of magick that fits you. For me I like the rituals of Ceremonial Magick, I'm guessing you like something more freeform. Viva La Difference!

I alternate and adapt a lot. Keep in mind I might only cast one spell every year or two, because of my personal ethics, so what I used last time may have changed considerably. If I'm having trouble focusing, I'll use my tribe's customary songs, rituals, and dances. If the focus comes easily, I'll simply close my eyes, lay down and visualize what needs to happen, piece by piece.

Originally posted by Cug
This is a good example of why it's hard to explain what magick is, how it works, and what a practitioner does. Remember back on page one where I mentioned it would very easy to get an argument going about magick? Good example here

True, although we weren't so much arguing about magick. It appears that so far we're all on the same page about what magic is. What appeared to be the primary case for argument were some semmantic differences.

Originally posted by Cug
Well in over 20 years several states, 3 countries, I've have only met a handfull of magic wankers. But then I don't really hang out with teenagers (Wild guess 80% of the dabblers), or anyplace Magick is a "scene" or "Lifestyle."

This could definitely make the difference then. My first ten years were mostly among teens (as I was one myself). The second ten years alternated between Austin (a hippy city), New Mexico (a new age state), and Seattle (a new age city in a hippy state). Oh yeah, and the DFW area of Texas (near Grand Prairie, witch capital of Texas).

Now by the time I'd left Austin (around age 22) I was already sick of the scene, had ceased Wicca in light of my tribe's lore, but still seeking those who maybe had some serious studies going to see what avenues were left. Around 25 I'd given up trying to find the truth in any one book and instead focused on all religious (including Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Hebrew, Meso-American, etc...) and began what I coined "Salad Bar Shamanism", effectively taking what few truths each exhibited after careful study, and applied them into my own personal belief system. My "religion" was constantly adapted and tweaked for the next five years, as every single day I would pose myself at least one moral, ethical, or philosophical question, and see if what I truly felt to be the answer matched my alleged beliefs. This is what I do to this day.

So, this may also explain my attitude on the multitude of pagans out there. Whereas I realize that for most people it first takes a book or three to even see where to start thinking about things, so many never progress beyond that. They can quote you Cunningham, or Valiente, or Buckner, or Gardner word for word, and have an entire larder filled with the exact components and an exact altar setup exactly as their favored author says they need. And what have they accomplished? They've proven they can follow an instruction booklet. That's it.

Now granted, I'd say most everyone starts out their own religious journey through life this way, no matter what religion. One follows the instruction booklet to the best of their ability, until the day they question "why" it's done that way. If they can come up with an answer besides "Because this book says so" or "because that's what we believe", then one has taken the first step towards spiritual growth.

So, I am also perhaps passing unfair judgment on those who are still early on in their paths, or for those who find comfort in never having to question, but rather rest comfortably on the commands of others on how to think.

Originally posted by Cug
Why not Magick? You got to call is something. If you want to call it "Vega" fine but no one will know what the h you're talking about

Well, put like that, I can see it. But then the same could be said for "magic" then, without the K.

It seems to me that the majority spelling it with a "K" are trying to distinguish it from prestidigitation. So that instead of bringing to mind rabbits being pulled from hats, it instead brings to mind ye olde wizzarde at yon cauldron "here we be different!"

The problem is the same one I find with people who change the spelling on everything else: It's a mass group attempt at being an individual and different. Instead of Women, we get Womyn. Instead of Magic, we get Magick (or worse, Majick, Majyck, etc...) Maybe, at one point in time, in Olde English, Magic was spelled differently. We don't live in Old English times, though. And while those who practice slight of hand may have bastardized the word "Magic" with cheap parlor tricks, it is they who are in the wrong, and not the person who uses the proper English spelling.

Originally posted by Cug
The worst those who aren't "proper" can do is scare themselves when they try to summon a demon. If you don't take the time to study the basics, (Such as preventing a bad side effect) it's likely your not going to take the time to really learn how things works.

::Edit: oops, you said that already but it is worth repeating so I'll leave it in.::

Fortunately the odds are in this favor, yes. Unfortunately, as I also mentioned, there are those who get off on causing collateral damage, or haven't learned how to avoid the worst side effects.

I myself had such an experience in the very first spell I cast. It worked...Yes... and then backfired like a cheap Yugo.

Originally posted by Cug
Oh as a side. I don't recommend any Magick for anyone who is not an adult. (I can't put an age to it.. some 16 y.o.'s are adults and some 50 y.o.'s are still children.)

Too true.

=======================

Originally posted by Enyalius
@Libra

Enlightentment is such a big word used in so many different contexts, but what does being enlightent mean?

IMHO, Enlightenment is simply a state of being where either everything makes sense, or doesn't need to.

Originally posted by Enyalius
It is also true that in 3rd world countries there are no countries and fastfood way of life. But it was not them I was addressing with those statements but their political leaders. Those leaders withhold all aid given to those countries and keep it for themselves and in due time started to live greedy materialistic lives at the cost of the people on the streets.

Unfortunately, though, that is a cop-out answer.

Perhaps they are corrupt, but other options are entirely possible. The official leader may actually be doing everything he can to help the people, but those below him in the chain of command are corrupt and countermanding his orders. Or perhaps the entire leadership chain are pristine of heart, but armed gangs stop the food and aid trucks and unload them before they get to the people.

Now take into effect that in other nations set up to help the people of said 3rd world country may only be sending a pittance to the actual country, the rest going to fund the organzation itself. In the U.S., only 3% of donations are required to actually leave the organization. That's a pretty massive cutback of donation money. Now subtract from that money all the associated infrastructure, fees, and palm greasing that goes along with transferring money from one country to another, and then subtract more for over-inflated contracting prices to obtain whatever it was the charity was supposed to be buying in the first place, and then subtract shipping costs. After all is said and done, each dollar donated becomes about half a penny in value to the receiving end.

Of course then you've also got the core of the problem: a people who continue to overbreed the amount that their natural resources can currently support.

Sometimes these problems have nothing to do with human error and everything to do with a lack of resources in terms of law enforcement, medicine, education, agriculture, and manufacturing.

Most of the time, however, it is a combination of many or all of these things and more. The problems of an entire country can never truly be blamed on one person, as much as we may want to sum it up that nicely.

Originally posted by Enyalius
The other aspect of the magickal philosophy is a lot of study as a scholar as well as exploration and research of oneself during the included teachings such as meditation, yoga, self-hypnotism and more...

...So self development and growth is a big part of magick as well. At least to me it is because I can't belief how often I have had to confront myself and learn to understand myself and my thoughts/emotions towards specific situations.

See this I agree with 100%, (read above my responses to Cug), but I never really considered it to be magic. I considered it to be adapting and challenging my beliefs.

However, I suppose if you have to be in the right frame of mind to execute magic, and must believe in what you are doing in order to be in the right frame of mind, then logically it follows that you must constantly adapt your beliefs in order to continue practicing magic.

Okay. Yeah, I can buy that. I still wouldn't consider it magic, because magic is the end result of one's beliefs and actions. However, I dig what you are actually saying 100%. I'd just call it by a different name, myself.


And it looks like we pretty much agree on the whole subject of ethics.

Originally posted by thelibra
Okay. Yeah, I can buy that. I still wouldn't consider it magic, because magic is the end result of one's beliefs and actions. However, I dig what you are actually saying 100%. I'd just call it by a different name, myself.

This is also the reason why I state so often that people should not be hung up on words but instead look at the definition of each word.

You can use the practice explained and call it psycho analysing, introspecting and confrontating, magic or whatever you want to call it yourself.

Same as stating religion, science, magic etc are so very different while in fact they share so many similarities but the problem lies in the wording used. Each field of life has their own terminology and methods of getting things done, but the end results are always the same and the processes talked about are the same as well cept with different names.

As for me having odd sentence build up...I am Dutch after all and english isn't my mother language. Still doing a decent enough job to get my point across I feel

[edit on 7-4-2006 by Enyalius]

Originally posted by Enyalius
As for me having odd sentence build up...I am Dutch after all and english isn't my mother language. Still doing a decent enough job to get my point across I feel

[edit on 7-4-2006 by Enyalius]

Indeed. Actually, your English is better than most Americans.

The Golden Bough

That is a nice book and it is on the internet in its full 750-ish pages. A book worth in this topic because it of the following...

A monumental study in comparative folklore, magic and religion, The Golden Bough shows parallels between the rites and beliefs, superstitions and taboos of early cultures and those of Christianity. It had a great impact on psychology and literature and remains an early classic anthropological resource.

[edit on 7-4-2006 by Enyalius]

Hey, if you have that book handy, I'd be curious what it says about the Tower of Babylon.
[edit on 4/7/2006 by thelibra]

Mod Edit to remove quote of previous poster

[edit on 7-4-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by thelibra
Indeed. Actually, your English is better than most Americans.

LOL! I don't care who you are, that thar is funny.

Sorry sorry, I better bow out before I get called "disruptive(?)" again. Whatevah.

Originally posted by thelibra
Hey, if you have that book handy, I'd be curious what it says about the Tower of Babylon.

As per Request

page 142 all the way to page 146

But I'm curious. Why did you ask for that?