Christianity and Homosexuality....

Originally posted by Shortness
i'm not sure what you're trying to say... the only way a homosexual will go to heaven is if they were born again... meaning change thier life away from thier sins, meaning stop being homosexual?
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
I don't think it is possible for anyone embracing homosexuality and still go to heaven...

Shortness, now I can see where you are coming from. What is sin? The Jews knew that to sin was to violate God’s laws. But when the gentiles began coming to Christianity, there was much condemnation on them for not following Judaic law.

The Apostle Paul wrote in his letters to the Romans on this issue. There were many feast days and fast days in the Roman Empire. There were days that certain foods were to be avoided. This became a doctrinal issue in the church in Rome because many of the converts grew up believing that eating certain foods at certain times was wrong. Paul explained that the sin was not in the act, but in the intention of the heart.

Romans 14
22Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

If a person does something and believes that what they are doing is wrong, then it is sin. But a person who does the same thing with no guilt is not sinning. In other words it is our conscious that defines sin. We know that speeding is wrong because it is against the law. So if a person knowingly speeds, that is sin. If, however, you see those blinking lights in your rear view mirror and realize then that you are speeding it is not sin even though you broke the law.

When a person becomes “born again,” God is the One who changes their hearts. There are many Christians who may look to be sinning on the outside, but if God has not convicted their hearts on that particular sin yet, is it sin? Only God knows their heart.

Will a true Christian continue in sin? Probably not. Once God puts that uncomfortable feeling in your heart you have only two options. Stop the sin, or continue in the sin and move farther away from God.

I do not personally know any born again homosexuals. Most of the homosexuals I’ve known reject the gospel in favor of their lifestyle. Of the few people I know who claimed to be bi-sexual, once they accepted Jesus, they turned away from the homosexual life-style.

Is homosexuality any worse than adultery or sex outside of marriage? I don’t think so. But I do know many people who call themselves Christians yet live together outside of marriage. Will they go to hell for this? I really don’t know. God is the One who makes that decision.

My point is that although the Bible says many things are sin, it is God who convicts peoples hearts. Since we cannot see into another’s heart, we have no way of knowing whether they are sinning or not. That is why we preach what the Bible says, so that the Word of God will touch and possibly change another’s heart. However, we are to judge only the sin and not the sinner. The sinner is God’s department. The law teaches us how to please God. The law is not for the sinner since they are already under condemnation. The law is for the sinner who is saved by grace.

Originally posted by darkelf
But a person who does the same thing with no guilt is not sinning. In other words it is our conscious that defines sin.

Wrong! Being ignorant of the laws of God does not totally pardon you from sin. You might not be held as culpable, but you are still guilty of sin, whatever way you look at it. Driving over the speed limit is carelessness, whether you were in a hurry or whatever...that's what a speedometer is for....in court you'd still have to pay the penalty....if you were ignorant/oblivious or not.
Having no remorse or guilt after sin is sinful in itself because the sinner has not shown penance. Not doing/feeling/displaying penance for sin (however you choose) is wrong in God's eyes.
A sin is a sin is a sin is a sin............
Our consciousness does not define sin....God does....we merely react to the sin.
And sin is an entity unto itself, it's not really part of us. It's separate from us.
Anyway, I'm sure you've heard of the 10 Commandments?
Break them and you're sinning, whether you feel guilt/remorse or not.

Originally posted by darkelf
Is homosexuality any worse than adultery or sex outside of marriage? I don’t think so. But I do know many people who call themselves Christians yet live together outside of marriage. Will they go to hell for this? I really don’t know. God is the One who makes that decision.

How can you not know? that is what we call FORNICATION. THat is a sin, and if the two unmarried "christians" were to die in thier sleep from an earthquake after they just did it you really think they will go to heaven?

THE BIBLE TELLS US. Regardless if they feel "convicted" IF THEY KNOW ITS A SIN TO BE HOMOSEXUAL, If its been revealed to them that the bible says homosexuality or sex before marriage is a sin, then they cannot plead ignorance.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

If there are any homosexual christians, i will make the statement that i'm sure they've been exposed to the bible truth about homosexuality, and if they know what it says, and ignore the clear teachings of scripture, then they are in danger.

Originally posted by darkelf

My point is that although the Bible says many things are sin, it is God who convicts peoples hearts.

No, it is up to the person to let thier heart be convicted of sin.

Originally posted by zerotolerance

Originally posted by darkelf
But a person who does the same thing with no guilt is not sinning. In other words it is our conscious that defines sin.

Wrong! Being ignorant of the laws of God does not totally pardon you from sin. You might not be held as culpable, but you are still guilty of sin, whatever way you look at it. Driving over the speed limit is carelessness, whether you were in a hurry or whatever...that's what a speedometer is for....in court you'd still have to pay the penalty....if you were ignorant/oblivious or not.

First, let me offer my apologies for misspelling conscience. That was a typo.

Yom Kippur is the Day of Atonement. It is the day that the Jews list their sins and ask God for forgiveness. One of the phrases they say is:

For the sin which we have sinned against You knowingly or unknowingly

God gave the Israelites an atonement for sins with the sacrifices in the temple. He even gave them a sacrifice for sin which they may have committed unknowingly.

Jesus said in John 14: 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. However, we cannot know His commandments unless we study His Word. As we study, He convicts us of our sins so that we might ask forgiveness. Once we know we have broken a commandment, we are responsible for that sin and must ask forgiveness. Until that time, however, we should ask Him to forgive any sins we have committed unknowingly and ask Him to bring those sins to mind.

Originally posted by zerotolerance
Having no remorse or guilt after sin is sinful in itself because the sinner has not shown penance. Not doing/feeling/displaying penance for sin (however you choose) is wrong in God's eyes.

How does one feel remorse for doing something wrong if they don’t know it is wrong?

Originally posted by zerotolerance
A sin is a sin is a sin is a sin............
Our consciousness does not define sin....God does....we merely react to the sin.
And sin is an entity unto itself, it's not really part of us. It's separate from us.

Didn’t Jesus say from the cross “Father forgive them for they know not what they do?” Do you think that God is in control of the conscience? I apologized for the misunderstanding between the word conscious and conscience.

Originally posted by zerotolerance
Anyway, I'm sure you've heard of the 10 Commandments?
Break them and you're sinning, whether you feel guilt/remorse or not.

I know the Ten Commandments. Did you know there are many people who can barely name at least four of them? Did you know that a Christian who tries to walk in the spirit is not held in condemnation for sin?

King James Version
Romans 8
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

That is if we walk after the Spirit, not the flesh.

Originally posted by Shortness

Originally posted by darkelf
Is homosexuality any worse than adultery or sex outside of marriage? I don’t think so. But I do know many people who call themselves Christians yet live together outside of marriage. Will they go to hell for this? I really don’t know. God is the One who makes that decision.

How can you not know? that is what we call FORNICATION. THat is a sin, and if the two unmarried "christians" were to die in thier sleep from an earthquake after they just did it you really think they will go to heaven?

So fornicators and adulterers cannot enter heaven?

Matthew 19
9And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

I guess then I will never make it to heaven either. This is not my first marriage and my divorce had nothing to do with fornication. So according to this verse, I am committing adultery. And according to you, since I am an adulterer, I’ll never see heaven. That is why I said I don’t know if the fornicator will go to heaven. Because I believe I will go to heaven.

Originally posted by Shortness
THE BIBLE TELLS US. Regardless if they feel "convicted" IF THEY KNOW ITS A SIN TO BE HOMOSEXUAL, If its been revealed to them that the bible says homosexuality or sex before marriage is a sin, then they cannot plead ignorance.

I would say that if they KNOW, then they’ve been convicted. Believe it or not, there are still many people who do not believe fornication, adultery or even homosexuality is a sin. As more and more churches allow homosexuals in their clergy, the message is diluted and distorted. It is only after being born again that the spirit is moved. Then God can convict them.

Originally posted by Shortness
If there are any homosexual christians, i will make the statement that i'm sure they've been exposed to the bible truth about homosexuality, and if they know what it says, and ignore the clear teachings of scripture, then they are in danger.

Ah, Shortness, I pray that they are in a church that does preach the Word.

darkelf, congratz, way to take bible text out of context again. Jesus said, lest ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. I'm saying unrepented fornicators and homosexuals who decided to live in such lifestyle and not turn from those sins will not go to heaven. This is a clear teaching of the bible. I mean, look at Lot's wife, all she did was turn around because she couldn't let go of the life that was in sodom and gomorrah, you think God will allow homosexuals and fornicators into heaven? THERE IS NO SIN IN HEAVEN. THERE WILL BE NO HOMOSEXUALS IN HEAVEN. I mean sheesh, imagine when/if i get to heaven and i meet someone who is homosexual would he want to try to have sex with me?

[edit on 3-5-2006 by Shortness]

Shortness...

Do you REALLY believe that gay people go to hell for an eternal barbecue where gay souls are grilled forever? Seriously.

Originally posted by Shortness
darkelf, congratz, way to take bible text out of context again.

Please show me which verses I have taken out of context.

Originally posted by Shortness
Jesus said, lest ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. I'm saying unrepented fornicators and homosexuals who decided to live in such lifestyle and not turn from those sins will not go to heaven. This is a clear teaching of the bible. I mean, look at Lot's wife, all she did was turn around because she couldn't let go of the life that was in sodom and gomorrah,

I’m say that I can judge the sin without judging the sinner. Shortness, I in no way encourage, promote, endorse or condone any sin. Yes, the Bible says that all sex outside of marriage is sin. I explained that in my very first post on this thread.

I may hate the sin, but I try very hard to love the sinner. I pray daily that they will come to see the love of God. I preach the good news that Christ died for their sins and how they can accept this precious gift. The only action that will send someone to hell is the rejection of Jesus Christ.

King James Version
John 3
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

This is why it is so important to preach the LOVE of God. Judging people dehumanizes and humiliates them. Love does not belittle a person, it lifts them up.

Originally posted by Shortness
you think God will allow homosexuals and fornicators into heaven? THERE IS NO SIN IN HEAVEN. THERE WILL BE NO HOMOSEXUALS IN HEAVEN. I mean sheesh, imagine when/if i get to heaven and i meet someone who is homosexual would he want to try to have sex with me?

Since there is NO sex in heaven, then there will be neither homosexuals or heterosexuals.

King James Version
Matthew 22
30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Shortness, it is not up to us to win the war on sin. Jesus already did that. We are called to be examples in our words and deeds. We who are Christians are to live a life that is pleasing to God and to walk in the spirit, not the flesh. We are to pray for the lost and preach the gospel of Christ. How can we do this if we preach hate?

King James Version
1 John 4
7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

truthseeka... if u actually read my posts you would see that i don't believe in an eternal hell. I believe that in the end those who do not go to heaven die forever, meaning eternal SLEEP.

darkelf... you act as if revealing to someone that homosexuality is a sin is preaching hate... when in actuality its showing love. I've given you AMPLE amount of bible texts showing how people of God revealed the sinners their sins. John asked Herod was it lawful to take his brothers wife. Christ told the pharisees they were hypocrites and sinners etc etc. And yet if i say homosexuality is a sin, OH NO shortness you're preaching HATE, don't judge the sinner but the sin... There's never a nice way to tell a homosexual that what he is doing is a sin, so you can stop the charade of trying to be "nice" to the guy and just tell him straight up what the bible says. And that is EXACTLY what i'm doing, i'm not going to sugar-coat what the bible says, i'll be straight to the point and blount.

However, i think you're problem is the way its being exposed by the media and mainstream preachers and how they single out those individuals. Do you know why its happening? I'm sure these preachers want to put laws in place prohibiting the binding of 2 gays to legally marry. THese are the same people who wants to get rid of Roe V. Wade. This is why i disagree with these people. We aren't to FORCE THEM to do anything. If religion gets civil power to do what they want then this country will fall into the same age as when the Papacy ruled Europe with an iron fist. But if i meet a homosexual person who believes in God, i will tell them... Is it lawful to be homosexual and go against God's Word and still go to heaven?

I'm gay ask me anything but no insults please I already get enough of that at school.

Originally posted by Ford Farmer
I'm gay ask me anything but no insults please I already get enough of that at school.

I have four questions:

1. At what age did you realize that you were different?
2. At what age did you understand that difference?
3. What type of religous backgroud do you have?
4. What type of moral support do youhave?

Thanks.

(edited typo)

[edit on 5/8/2006 by darkelf]

Truth is, none of you know what happens to a person when they die. If it's sinners that go to hell, then everyone's doomed (because we're all guilty of something - even the ones who've accepted "Jesus into their hearts"). Christians from various denominations always claim their interpretation is better than the others. Most of them believe their's is the ONLY path to the Kingdom of Heaven. All this is just another incarnation of elitist predjudice: "we're better then them" or "God loves us better". HORSE HOCKEY!!!

You don't know. None of us do. And in a world that was designed so that NO LIVING THING CAN EXIST WITHOUT KILLING/DESTROYING ANOTHER LIVING THING how the frack can anyone not sin? That's where love, compassion, forgiveness (including forgiving one's self) comes in.

Here's the REAL key to heaven: Don't judge anyone but yourself. Improve your own character and live as righteous a life as you can in this temporal hellhole.

Calling a gay person "sinner" while you're ogling teenagers, or looking up so-called straight-porn on the internet (May God have mercy on my soul), or calling your mother a Bi&ch behind her back (again, sorry God), or even living off the backs of the poor so that we affluent Westerners can retain our decadent lifestyles... is hypocritical at best.

"Physician, heal thyself." Again, "Take the mosquito out of thine own eye so that thou can see clearly to remove the mote in thy brother's eye." "Judge not, lest ye yourself be judged."

I'd place a good wager that a lot of so-called Christians are gonna be turned away from the pearly gates while Mohatma Ghandi walks on in with a crowd of lamenting Iraqi Muslims, broken and abused Eastern European sex slaves, and that homeless alcoholic living in a box twenty blocks from where you live.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

-S

many follow the saying: hate the sin but love the sinner. So the way for gays to get love from Christians is to stop doing gay stuff. simple really. It's like breaking the law... stop doing it and they will leave you alone.

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
many follow the saying: hate the sin but love the sinner. So the way for gays to get love from Christians is to stop doing gay stuff. simple really. It's like breaking the law... stop doing it and they will leave you alone.

The point in "hate the sin and not the sinner" is that Christians are commanded to love EVERYONE, including gays, even if they hate what gays do. Remember when Christ said "love thine enemy"?

"So the way for gays to get love from Christians is to stop doing gay stuff." Did Christ hate the prostitute after he heard of her sinful ways? No, he loved her regardless of her spotted history and in that spirit of love He forgave her.

Anyone who self-righteously piles judgement, guilt and shame on another (hates them) is Satan's servent, not The Lord's.

Read your Bible. It's in there.

-S

One of the things that pained Christ the most was the society he lived in. It was intolerant, elitist, and deterministic.

Even the peasants were divided against each other, those who had nothing lorded it freely over others of even humbler stock, based on artificial social constructs. Caste/class, notions of cleanliness, Christ shattered these things.

He didn't do it so they could be built back up (well, maybe he did, I wouldn't put it past him). Why dine with unmarried women and wash the feet of the poor and touch the sick when nobody else would? Because the community Christ envisioned, as I understand it, was one free of artificial divisions.

We are all equal in God's kingdom, we are all free underneath the sky. Slaves and priests and warriors and wives, all equal, all worthy of God's love in so far as they can embody it. Surely if Christ ran the contemporary church he would not be seeking to erect walls, but rather he would be trying to tear them down.

I can't speak for the man, but I can speak for myself. I consider myself a Christian, in the sense that I appreciate the wisdom of the parables and the notions of humility and submission. I don't worship Christ, I really don't think that's what he had in mind.

No angels, no harps, no clouds, just a shared vision of the perfect world, one in which men and women treat each other with respect, and slaves and masters dine together as brothers.

Christ wasn't so wildly popular because he exluded people left and right, he was popular because he included people, even the people nobody else would include. That was the heart of his mission, and to turn a phrase, that should be the mission of your heart - to include those that others will not.

Hallilujah, brother! Nicely said.

-S

I was thirteen when I first realized I might be gay. All the other guys were bragging about how the screwed one girl, just talking smack to make their dicks feel bigger. And I thought about why havn't i had those feelings to girls, and is that wrong. then i thought about if i thought guys were hot. And i looked around at how if i was gay, would everyone hate me. I am currently 14, and go to SALEM HIGH SCHOOL (go noles). I am in a relationship right now withe a guy named J@##$e. We have had sex and both enjoyed it. I understand the difference now, because when i walk down the halls at school i know im different, not because the the other kids at Salem tease me, it's because I no that they will have a different life thatn i will. I am currently a christian, and proud of it. if God made me this way, he did it for a reason. and i am in nooo position to judge his descision. I know that some of you may be saying how does this kid sure. well think about it, your entire life you may have looked at girls in a way that your mother would blush at. I have grown up looking at guys that would make my dad vomit. and that hurts. when i was young, my dad would remark that some woman had a "nice rack", of a "tight ass". i always said yea i like that or something. but under the surfacce, i am calling him a pig. The moral support that i have is, in my opinion very strong. although I have no self esteem, i have many friends. i also realize that sex is not the only part of the realationship. i love J@%$%e for who he is not just his, body, I also look at other guys, and think maybe hes good in bed. but i don't tell J^&&@e that.

Originally posted by Ford Farmer
I was thirteen when I first realized I might be gay. All the other guys were bragging about how the screwed one girl, just talking smack to make their dicks feel bigger. And I thought about why havn't i had those feelings to girls, and is that wrong. then i thought about if i thought guys were hot. And i looked around at how if i was gay, would everyone hate me. I am currently 14, and go to SALEM HIGH SCHOOL (go noles).

That is about the right age for sexual awareness. Did you think that when you were younger, you may have felt “different” from others but didn’t know why? I ask because I have heard some say they did while others said they didn’t notice a difference until sexual maturity.

Originally posted by Ford Farmer
I am in a relationship right now withe a guy named J@##$e. We have had sex and both enjoyed it. I understand the difference now, because when i walk down the halls at school i know im different, not because the the other kids at Salem tease me, it's because I no that they will have a different life thatn i will.

IMHO at 14 you are too young to be having sex. That is not a moral judgment; I’m more concerned with your emotional health. I am a 52-year-old grandmother and I see the tremendous pressure my own grandchildren fight. I hope the kids don’t tease too much. I was teased a lot in high school and I know it can be very painful.

Originally posted by Ford Farmer
I am currently a christian, and proud of it. if God made me this way, he did it for a reason. and i am in nooo position to judge his descision.

I hope that by Christian, you mean that you love God with all your heart, and love humankind (even those who make fun of you or are mean to you.) Continue to pray for them, they really don’t understand.

Originally posted by Ford Farmer
I know that some of you may be saying how does this kid sure. well think about it, your entire life you may have looked at girls in a way that your mother would blush at. I have grown up looking at guys that would make my dad vomit. and that hurts.

I remember my teen loves. They felt just as real to me then as my relationship to my husband does now. I pray that your dad will accept you as you are. I have an adult child who was bi-sexual for a while. I still loved her. She is married and in a heterosexual relationship but my feelings for her never changed.

Originally posted by Ford Farmer
when i was young, my dad would remark that some woman had a "nice rack", of a "tight ass". i always said yea i like that or something. but under the surfacce, i am calling him a pig.

Lust is a normal temptation. Sexual orientation has nothing to do with it. I would hope that you view all people as valuable members of society (until they prove otherwise.) Don’t ever view another person as merely a sex object.

Originally posted by Ford Farmer
The moral support that i have is, in my opinion very strong. although I have no self esteem,

i have many friends. i also realize that sex is not the only part of the realationship. i love J@%$%e for who he is not just his, body,

It may surprise you to find out that, most teens lack self-esteem. It is something you learn along the way. Remember that love is more than a feeling. It is an action. As a Christian, you should love God so much that you are willing to keep His commandments rather than do what you want. It’s not always easy, but it is rewarding. Don’t let others tell you what a Christian is supposed to be. Study the Bible and pray God will lead you.

Originally posted by Ford Farmer
I also look at other guys, and think maybe hes good in bed. but i don't tell J^&&@e that.

Smart move.

Originally posted by darkelf
1. At what age did you realize that you were different?
2. At what age did you understand that difference?
3. What type of religous backgroud do you have?
4. What type of moral support do youhave?

I'll answer these if I may.

1. As long as I can remember.

2. I started to understand when I learned what being homosexual really meant. Then I was like "ok, that's me". I would say around 9 or 10.

3. Christian background.

4. I have a great moral support system from my family. I was afraid for awhile (it took me til I was 30 to "come out" to my parents...which of course they already "knew") because when I was younger, a movie about AIDS was on and it had a gay man dealing with his mother while dealing with AIDS. Anyway, while watching the movie, my mother turned to my father and said "I don't know what I'd do if any of our children were gay". Well, knowing that I was, this didn't sit well with me for a long time. Until I came out to my sister and she persuaded me to come out to my parents. My parents have been wonderful....BTW, they are both VERY religeous. My mother astounded me once when she said "you know, I don't believe EVERYTHING that is written in the bible as "the truth". Anyway, people can change...and usually do when they find out their son, daughter or relative is gay. My aunts and uncles have been pretty great also, because they know me as me and not as gay me if you know what I mean.