Christianity and Homosexuality....

We who are Believers....Believers who know... are not intrested in your sexuality or the specifics of your sexuality.

What so few of us know ...even Believers..is that we do not ever define or boast of ourselves by our sexuality......Ever!!

THis is just common sense. We are not to be wild animals..or boastful. Modesty is the order of the day..every day ..all day. Humility is another word for it.
To boast of ones sexuality or even to define oneself by ones sexuality is to declare ones ignorance in many things. For the animals I feed in my yard have sexuality. Watching the Squirrels on my corn feeder one can obviously tell that they have sexuality...they are flourishing..increasing in number.

What is known historically, cashlink, is that the nations which boasted and made festivals and celebrations to thier sexuality ..were pagan nations. This was quite common in ancient history. Most Christians have little knowlege of this history and public education will teach little about this so as not to upset those it intends to bring back into this open sexuality/paganism....including the festivals/immodesty, unhumility surrounding this type of behavior.

The facts of the matter cashlink is that people are so much more than mere sexuality...yet we have this one group amongst us for whom thier sexuality is the sole identifying quality for which they are wont to boast. Yet people are so ignorant and unthinking...including Believers, that they dont even notice or think this through. They do not know enough history to even know that this is very strange behavior...to openly flaunt such pagansim as greatness. To clarify this statement ..I am saying that Believers are also very very dumb about this and their preachers or pastors are keeping them dumb in this arena too. Many Believers are at fault here for thier ignorance.

Whenever I see someone as yourself boasting and glorifying yourself by your sexuality ..I feel pity for you as you seem not wont to know this view ..in lieu of your boastfulness about your sexuality. You do not insult or shock me by this type of behavior as it has become typical of so many. Doing this kind of conduct is pitiful..hetero as well as homo...for heterosexuals too are not to declare themselves as to whom and what they are by thier sexuality.
Both partys doing this are declaring open paganism.

I will also declare here that politicians are pandering to this type of thing for votes. They care not one whit about the issues here...they feigh concern but the real concern is for the votes to maintain power. It is the same as the Illegal Alien issues..it is about votes. In this the politicians are sponsoring open paganism ..for votes. In ancient times as written in the Word this was called whoredom. What I am saying here is that politicians are engaged in open whoredom for votes....by any and all means. Not difficult to accomplish with the constant dumbing down of the public throug television education and programming. Remember too ...cashlink....that the body politic finances public education...they are teaching whoredom in public education also...to the concern of much of the public. The body politic through the public education system is grooming the next batch of predictable controlable voters to help them maintain power and control against the will or desires of the public. And I mean not just on this issue but any issue you want to declare. It is very simple..not much thinking needed to see the truth of this.

Do not misunderstand me..I am not against sexuality..I am against this type of ignorance..being glorified as greatness..hetero or homo. Yet this seems to be the fad of the day..without a complete set of thinking views being proposed or made clear concerning this. Only one side or view seems wont to be told here.

I am declaring to you that there is another view.

Thanks for your post,
Orangetom

PAGAN? You are the Pagan! You live in your own world. You have the nerve to judge me! You are a hipocrite and need to examine your genitalia to be sure of your gender. You are the one deserving pity. As they say, People in glass houses...

You are very immature so I will overlook your ignorance. Clearly, you were mislead in your formative years (as were most Christians) and taught all of these bad things about HOMOSEXUALS.

Well, I have spent enough time responding to your inane comments so I will close and go back and finish watching Brokeback Mountain for the 3th, time.

Learn to be humble and learn that the world does not revolve around you.

With pity,
Kurt

Sorry olde man..but it is not well done...at all but it is also typical.

Going off on such rants does not strengthen your position.

I merely declared that there is another view not often posted among the public or even among Believers.

I have no problem with you not being able to handle it or going off on rants...no problem here ..it is textbook reaction. Textbook of this tolerant generation.

You said nothing about my declaration that people do not declare who or what they are by thier sexuality. Very intresting omission. This is the crux of my point...that to do so is pagan..in origin..historically...it is historically demonstratable.

Nonetheless ..we do not declare our greatness by our sexuality...

We declare who and what we are by our lineage, our occupations, or some great work we have done with our lives..including our offspring....but never our sexuality. Never!!
For those of us who are Believers we also declare who we are by the God who Lives in us...and what it means. Among those meanings is that we do not glorify ourselves by our sexuality. WE dont do this because this is what the world and the world standards have always done. We are not to be of the worlds very poor standards..especially in this arena.

Oh..one more thing...about judging. This one is quite common among the worldly to use in getting Believers in a box and neutered about judging.
Believers are to judge everything by the Word....including each other. Otherwise they will not know when to put out of the Church. If they do not judge they will not know if they are mixing leven with unleven..new wine with olde. This requires perception given by the Grace of the Word. THey are to judge "everything" ..by the Word. Amazing to me the number of Believers who dont seem to know this. It is very easy to control them by this "non Judgemental mantra". Especailly if they dont know better or are on milk instead of strong meat.
The method of this world is to "seduce" through ignorance and misquotes into non judgementalism..so that pagan doctrine and practices can be substituted for the intstructions to Believers. This is not a new practice/technique. ..it is very ancient. Very effective too ..against Believers who cannot think it through.

I declare to you and others again that there is another viewpoint...here ..a viewpoint for which this world is wont that we remain ignorant.

Thanks for your post,
Orangetom

Ho Hum, another wordy reply from another know it all.

Again, I state that I am GAY and happy to be with my partner for 15 years! The fact that I am gay does not make me better than anyone else but you think because you are straight (as you would have us believe) that you are better than all gays. You are a fool and you waste words.

Look in a mirror if you can stand to and judge your miderable self. Do not confuse 'judging' the difference between milk and meat or any other COMPARISON we are supposed to make with judging people.

Orangetom..could you provide some scripture to back your "judge everything" beliefs. I would like to provide some to counter your beliefs. Now, I'm not a christian and I don't have the bible memorized from cover to cover; however, the following scripture came to mind when it came to the topic of judgement.

Matthew 7:1+2

1Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Luke 6:37

37Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:


With that said though, I have to agree with you in that sexuality plays a large role in many peoples lives....hetero and homo alike. To define oneself by ones sexuality is limiting. I'm gay, but sexuality does not define me. I'd like to believe that it's my beliefs and actions that define me; However, many times I've had people judge me and define me based on my sexuality alone. I'ts not fun.

I do believe in God, and I believe that when the time comes, only He will be the judge.

I think you are trying to make a point about my posts. I am having to work to find your point.

The points I make do not make me better than anyone else either. I said no such thing. Any such inference is on your part not mine. You must infer such for the purpose of your position. It is simply not true and I made no such point.

The point I made concerns both hetero and homo..and I made a specific point on this. We do not glorify ourselves or delcare our greatness by our sexuality.

I am not particulary interested in the status of your relationship for the points of this debate.

Sorry you missed the point about milk and meat and judging. I will continue to judge all things in and of this world by the Word as this is part of our instruction.

I will not be watching that movie you mentioned. I dont watch alot of what comes out of Hollywood...nor listen to alot of what comes out of the music industry. Much of it is very disappointing.

THanks for your post,
Orangetom

well said...well said.

I agree..when the time comes it is between God and us. No Believer can send anyone to heaven or hell. Not possible. Many Believers do not seem to understand this either.

Also well said ..about defining ones self by thier sexuality..which was my point. One does not declare such whether gay or straight..this is why discretion and humility is the order of the day. Not boasting and self glorification.

THe passages you use are the most common ones quoted and often used to neutralize others as I posted previously. It works well on those believers who are not well tutored in the Word.

Suggest you try John 7:24 about judging righteous judgement. In this case righteous judgement is not our judgement but according to the precepts of the Word. For He is Righteous..not us. His Word therefore is righteous..not us.
His Word instructs in the Olde Testament and for Believers in the New Testament to not be as the nations surrounding them are. Not to do as the nations surrounding the Lords people do. Come out from amongst them and be ye seperate sayeth the Lord. Meaning we do not take on the appearence and values of this world. We are in this world but not of this world.

For it is obvious by records of History what was happening in the nations surrounding the Children of Israel. It is obvious and documented in the Word and other sources available in librarys what these nations were doing in their daily lives and at the times of the festivals. This is not information ordinarily taught in public schools for the simple reason that people would be able to figure out that a attempt is being made to return us to this olde system. This often secret adoption of these practices is recorded among the Hebrews...and also it is recorded that they tried often to superimpose these practices and customs as if they were the Law of Moses. That these practices were the custom of that day....just as it is being attempted to do so today. It is clearly recorded that the Hebrews were punnished over and over for this tresspass. This too is one of my points.
YOu would not know this pattern of operation if you were not well versed in the Word and judgements. It is intentional that people not know this history or the meaning of judging. Judging must be stricken from peoples belief systems.

The thing I declare is of the Word..not of myself..this is the pattern of the Word from begining to end....to not do as the nations surrounding us do. Including open rampant sexuality/self glorification by sexuality. This applied/applies both Olde and New Testaments.
To do this.. to know this requires judgement based on His Rightious proclamations by His Word...not ours. Otherwise as stated in a previous post..we will mix leven with unleven..new wine with olde.
If you know the Word as you say..you will know that we do not mix leven with unleven ..new wine with olde. We cannot do this without judging..we cannot come out from amongst them and be ye seperate...without judging. IT is common sense.

Agree with your points as stated above...thanks for your post,
Orangetom

Yes lets quote Matthew 7:1 and disregard everything else the bible has to say about judging others.

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

But wait! it says here to JUDGE righteous judgment, HOW CAN THIS BE when the bible also says judge not, lest ye be judged!

Isaiah 58:1 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

wahhh? show them thier transgressions? BUT WE ARENT SUPPOSE TO JUDGE OTHERS!

Truly this must mean that all judges in our judicial system will never see the kingdom of Heaven because they judge others =(

Please, it would do well if we keep the bible in its context and not make a doctrine out of 7 words i.e. Matthew 7:1

Originally posted by Shortness
Yes lets quote Matthew 7:1 and disregard everything else the bible has to say about judging others.

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

But wait! it says here to JUDGE righteous judgment, HOW CAN THIS BE when the bible also says judge not, lest ye be judged!

Isaiah 58:1 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

wahhh? show them thier transgressions? BUT WE ARENT SUPPOSE TO JUDGE OTHERS!

Truly this must mean that all judges in our judicial system will never see the kingdom of Heaven because they judge others =(

Please, it would do well if we keep the bible in its context and not make a doctrine out of 7 words i.e. Matthew 7:1

Good point, Shortness. So explain to me please why so many Christians focus on homosexuality. Are not adultry, pornograhy, prostituion, and sex outside of marriage also transgressions? Or is it that these sins being also heterosexual are just not as bad?

What would happen if the churches stopped being so judgemental and started preaching the love of God? What would happen if the churches stopped being so materialistic and strove to be the church at Philigelphia?

Show people the love of God and let Him change their hearts.

those sins you have listed are all the same...all bad and against the instructions..given to Gods people. They are to seperate from this inequity.

I will also add..that the topic you mentioned of prostitution...is sometimes refered to as whoredom. Whoredom covers alot of ground in a spiritual context. It does not strictly mean prostitution in the carnal sense..it also means in the spiritual sense. If you commit one of these whoredoms you make yourself subject to all of them. That is the message.

I will declare again..that He is Righteous..not us.. THe judgements and standards of judgement are of Him not men. For the ways of men change like the wind. THe ways of this world and men are like the wind..here today gone tomorrow. Brotherly love in this type of system is the same ..here today and gone tomorrow.
What many will do is try to shift the doctrine to that of Brotherly love is to mean everyone and everything....what ever comes down the evolutionarly pipe. Not so.
IF you seperate leven from unleven .new wine from olde...you do not love that thing from which you seperate. You depart from it. It is that simple..not complex...not ...but...what about ...or how about this...or that...but it is simple.
Once again..you cannot do this without judging..without discernment.
The love most would have us do is to wallow in the mire of this world with everything that comes down the pipe...not so. This is the reason for seperation.
Not just from Homosexuality..but other sexuality..too..from prostitution, adultery...theft...and a host of other sins of which you aptly covered.
We are to come out from amongst this world and be seperate. This cannot be done without discernment and judgement. Not possible.
I submit to you and others that biblical love is obedience to the Word..not to the traditions and customs of men.
Yes Philidelphia means brotherly love..correct. Who are our bretheren...by the Word...who are they?? Are they the world...and the worlds standards.?? Or is it the ones who He declared when told his mother and brother were outside..and he said..these.. pointing to His Believers.. are my sisters and brothers.
THe tendency of natural men is to include everyone and everything. To juggle the words and meanings to include every vice and corruption both leven and unleven, new wine with olde that is possible to get all of it to fit in. This is not simpliticy..it is not the simplicity of the Word.

THanks for your post.
Orangetom

there is no contradiction between Matthew 7:1 and John 7:24.

Once one understands that Rightiousness is one of His names among many...one understands that the judgement must be of Him ..not of the traditions of or customs of men. THe Judgements we use must be of Him/Righteousness. Not our own. This requires discernment..knowlege..wisdom...of Him.

From time to time in our walk here on this earth we must make these judgements. Not because we want to..make them but because this world will not allow us anything else. Furthermore this world will often deceive us about much of this and judging...so as to get us to mix leven and unleven..new wine with olde...as stated previously.

Thanks,
Orangetom

Matthew 7
1Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

John 8
1Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
3And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

The Bible does not tell us not to judge others. But, it does say that if you are going to judge, your life had better be righteous before God. How many of us can honestly say that our lives are righteous before God?

Isaiah 6
6But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

John 15
12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Let us love one another in brotherly love. Only God can judge righteously.

Not a single person that is elligable for the next life has the ability to judge. Period. And its true, sexual immorality weighs the same, porn/homosexuality/adultery/etc.

The only differance is that typically porn and and adultery is done in secret, where homosexuals cant seem to scream loud enuogh about there identity and the intriqicies of there sexual practice, and is therefore a social red flag. The scrutiny homosexuality comes under is generated from the social and institutional church, not the bible.

As far as the actual bible goes, homosexuality is mentioned 1) as a sexual immorality and 2) as part of a mass orgy by the babylonians to worship a pagan god of fertility and sex. Other than that the bible doesnt really have an opinion

Originally posted by cashlink
ITS so funny you all say GOD SAID!!! LOL
No MAN SAID!! man said, man wrote GOD does not need to write LOL
Wake up world!!

I know this was like 15 posts back, but I still cant get over that this guy is trying to discredit the bible because it was written by men. The budding of the first Christian Anarchist Church

I have to agree with Cashlink on a few points. The bible was written by Man. Not God, Not jesus. The other point is regarding the reality of Sin. Sin is a creation of the Church / Man. There is no Sin imho. They are scare tactics authored by the church to herd sheep.

If I am not mistaken, one would be better off by finding someone of the Jewish faith that is very well versed in Hebrew. As some of you may know, the chronology of the common christian 'bible' was stolen from the Jews. The 'old testament' started in Early Aramaic, to Hebrew, from there to Greek, from Greek to Latin, from Latin to the various other languages. By studying the ORIGINAL, written in that language, one may be surprised by the actual translation and not the translations written by man seeking to control people.

If one bothers to question the 'authority' of a religious path started way after the passing of jesus, you arrive at the cliff edge of the Spiritual Patent the church awards itself. Many spiritual paths teach of a higher consciousness. That 'Christ Consciousness" or the Christ is not solely owned and operated by the christian church. Never has, never will. For a single 'spiritual agency' to set itself up as the only game in town is the epitome of Red Herringdom. That boils down to saying that no other spiritual path is a viable vehicle to God or spiritual salvation.

In my humble opinion, one has to be foolish to even consider the point that God would even care what sexual orientation a person is. In the scope of things, that's like worrying about some asteroid a million light years from here.

Straingt, Bi or Gay, who cares? What does that have to do with being a spiritual seeker really?

you posted this:

"The Bible does not tell us not to judge others. But, it does say that if you are going to judge, your life had better be righteous before God. How many of us can honestly say that our lives are righteous before God? "

Like many you will avoid other passages in the bible. The Word or Bible also says only One is Righteous..He.. the Lord Jesus the Christ for Remissions of sins is Righteous. In other places the bible says ,speaking of men, there is none righteous no not one....all have gone astray. THe judgement we use to determine leven or unleven, new wine from olde...is after the pattern of His Righteousness..this meaning His Word.
THis is what I have posted twice here in this board.

Which is precisely why so many must discredit the Word..and claim it is not of God..but of men. Yet when it is convenient they will also quote thus to make a point in order to neutralize Gods people as evidenced on this tangent about judging.

Once again .if one does not judge Righteous Judgement one will do precisely what I have claimed ..accept the traditions of men for the Word of God. This is historically demonstratable and I have stated so. THe glory of men must always use this tactic. THe Hebrews in the Olde Testament and into the New Testament recordings did this very conduct over and over and were finally punnished for this in 70 AD.

Transparency is correct...the context in which the Bible/Word mentions these abominations is in the context of the fertility rituals carried out by the nations surrounding Israel...very common in those days. This means both hetero and homo abominations....both. They are in the same light as abominations. Not just one of them. All under spirutual adultery. Gods people were told over and over not to do these things. To seperate out from these things.
YOu see these abominations often reflected in the Hebrews being seduced or lead into them in building groves and high places...to worship and carry out these fertility rituals...in the hills in the daytime and in the valleys at night. These were the bunny clubs of those days where they sacraficed their virgins.
This pattern still goes on today...in the hills/high places...and the valleys at night...the sun and the moon and the master. Nothing new under the sun.

Thanks to all for thier posts,
Orangetom

my apologies as It seems I have misread your post after hitting the post reply button. I should probably have my spectacles on but seemed to have left them in the garage while doing some labors this morning.

You posted that the bible does not tell us not to judge others. Correct in this.. and also correct in that it tells us to use Righteous judgement since our own judgement is not worthy and flawed.

My apologies for the oversight.

Thanks,
Orangetom

by the way...that post you made in JOhn 8...very good post and is a textbook example of the substitution of mans practice for the Word of God in which I was speaking in earlier posts.

In this passage of John 8 the woman is caught in adultery..in the very act.
They bring her before Jesus not because they cared about the woman caught in adultery..in the very act..but because they want to catch Jesus in a mistake in his quoting the Law of Moses...to discredit Him. Remember these Pharisees were very boastful about how they keep the Law in all points..and knew the Law cover to cover...yet they brought a woman caught in adultery before Jesus...caught in the very act.

The facts of the Law of Moses are that "They both shall be stoned" meaning two ..male and female..both. The Pharisees brought only the woman to be accused before Jesus. THey did not bring the man to be accused yet obviously he too was caught in the very act. The Law that the Pharisees kept said that women get stoned for adultery men do not. They had in fact broken the Law of Moses and in doing this they went after other gods..and disobeyed the God of the Fathers. THey switched gods...privily...in secret..without telling or declaring such. For by thier very conduct they could not be obeying the God of Abraham, Isaac , and Jacob.
This is a textbook example of how the traditions of men are secretly, privily , substituted for the Word of God. This too is one of my points in this series of postings. Just as did the pharisees seek to establish thier righteousness ..so too today do people seek to establish the same..by neutralizing others who know this pattern of conduct. This is one of the reasons Jesus often said to the Pharisees and Elders "Ye are of your father the devil." this passage also in John 8 about versse 44. The pharisees themselves were doing the abominations which the nations surrounding Israel were doing and engaged in. This passage about the woman caught in adultery make this quite clear.

Thanks for posting JOhn 8 about the woman in adultery.

Orangetom

Orangetom, thank you. You caught what I was trying to portray by posting those verses. People can easily manipulate scripture to say whatever they want it say, but only when they take it out of context. This is exactly what the Pharisees were doing. It is what we do when we say “The Bible says don’t judge.” By posting both, I had hoped to show the hypocrisy of many of those who judge.

Now, I'm not a christian and I don't have the bible memorized from cover to cover

Shortness, I admitted to my shortcomings in my post.

If you're a true christian you have a lot to learn about humility.

I want to commend everyone on their ability to use theological research in context. Its good to see anti-dogmatic, indepth theology practiced without the aid of the institution.

We seemed to have reached a conclusion that all sexual immorality is weighed the same, and for the most part...homosexuality is critical victim of religious society, not the bible. But where does the aspect of deciding eternal salvation come in to play?

Intention. We all fall short of divinity, its in the very fabric of our human exsistence and thus expected. It is the intension that will tip the scales.

Based on biblical illistrations from Jesus, heart condition was the deciding factor for salvation. A man that suffers a moment of weakness in adultery and repents, will not be weighed along side a man that goes out looking for women while his wife sits at home crying. THIS IS PRECISELY why humans are not fit to judge, we cant see the one thing that matters, the heart.