Round 1. Chissler vs. Kenshiro2012: Hamas Moderation

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posted on Mar, 27 2006 @ 08:04 AM
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The topic for this debate is "Hamas can reasonably be expected to moderate its views in the short-term".

Chissler will be arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
Kenshiro2012 will argue con position.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.

No post will be longer than 800 words and in the case of the closing statement no longer than 500 words.

Credits or references at the bottom do not count towards the word total.

Editing is Strictly forbidden. This means any editing, for any reason. Any edited posts will be completely deleted.

Opening and closing statements must not contain any images, and must have no more than 3 references. Excluding both the opening and closing statements, only one image and no more than 5 references can be included for each post.

Responses should be made within 24 hours, if people are late with their replies, they run the risk of forfeiting their reply and possibly the debate.

Judging will be done by a panel of anonymous judges. After each debate is completed it will be locked and the judges will begin making their decision. One of the debate forum moderators will then make a final post announcing the winner.

This debate is now open, good luck to both of you.

[edit on 27-3-2006 by Nygdan]




posted on Mar, 27 2006 @ 04:13 PM
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First allow me to wish Kenshiro2012 the best of luck, along with Thanks to Nygdan and the judges.

I will begin with a bit of background on Hamas. It was first established in 1987, when it turned up on a leaflet to make accusations against the Israeli's for undermining the Palestinian youth. This was nothing more than a recruitment process which seen various amounts of success.
The goal of the Hamas is to create a Palestinian state in the land which is now controlled by Israel. Hamas was always a group whom used violence as a tool, in the beginning it was mainly severe beatings and other hand to hand combat. The first suicide bombing was not until 1993, and have continued ever since. Hamas is considered a terrorist group by many countries including, Canada, United States & Australia.

In the recent 2006 elections, Hamas won the majority of seats in the Palestinian Authority Legislative Council, which has the council being denounced by the Quartet on the Middle East. All future aid for the area is being held until they meet the following three requirements:

- Renounce Violence
- Acknowledge the Israelis right to exist
- Follow the Oslo Accords, and support the Middle East peace process

With the position the Quartet has put the Hamas in, moderation may be inevitable to sustain.

I will explore exactly why Hamas should and must moderate their radical views. Our planet is large enough for both sides to be able to exist in peace. The question of, is it reasonable to have Hamas moderate the views over the Israelis and their methodology is absolutely just and must happen. Moderate is the keyword here, we are not asking if it’s reasonable for the Hamas to pull a 180 on everything they stand for. We are asking if it’s reasonable for them to moderate. The answer is Yes.

They can and Will.

en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Mar, 27 2006 @ 06:08 PM
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I would first like to extend my thanks to Nygdan as well as the judges for this opportunity to discuss such an interesting and relevant topic. I also would like to my best wishes to my worthy opponent, I do not envy the position that he has to champion!

The topic of discussion which is will Hamas moderate or tone down it’s rhetoric and actions in the near future or anytime in the future. I see very little if hope of this ever occurring for any reason nor for any length of time.
I also will go in-depth and explore the history of the HAMAS as well as it’s basic tenets for existence. While going through this information I will demonstrate why it would be both political as well as religious suicide for them to moderate or back off to any degrees their stance of extremism.

Let us first take a look at the birth of HAMAS. Hamas actually gets its roots from the Muslim Brotherhood. A political and religious organization founded in Egypt. This group purpose is to return all Muslims to the origional ideals as put forth in the Qu’ran. The Muslim Brotherhood’s method of gaining this goal is through political, economic, militatant as well as terrorism.
The spiritual founder of HAMAS was Sheikh Ahmed Yassin first tried back in the 1960’s
to use preaching as well as charitable work to put forth his ideals which were in agreement with the Muslim Brotherhood. In 1973, Yassin established the al-Mujamma' al-Islami to house the Muslim Brotherhood’s political arm in the Garza Strip. Yassin then created the HAMAS in December of 1987 to further the Brotherhood’s political goals after the Palestinian uprising as Israel’s control. Yassian essentially deemed after 20 years that using only altruistic methods to get his message across to the people who called themselves Palestinians was not going to work.
This has not stopped the HAMAS from continuing Yassian’charity, in fact they contiue even today by funding hospitals, soup kitchens etc. But HAMAS believe wholeheartedly that to reach their goals, their will have to enforce them and use any means necessary. Terrorism is a fairly cheap method of getting their point across to the infedels. The average bomb used in a suicide bomb only costs about $150.

My fellow word warrior has brought an interesting point about HAMAS winning the recent elections in Palestine. Unfortunately, HAMAS only won the election due to the people’s disgust at the rampant thievery of the previous government who it is believed to have stolen millions of dollars in aid money. HAMAS also received kudos and a spike in their popularity in the recent elections due to the withdrawal of Israel troops This does not mean that HAMAS was better only the lesser of two evils. Nor does it mean that the Palestinians think that the HAMAS will or should change their ideology. In fact the election of HAMAS into it’s present political power demonstrates the Palestinians support for the methods that the HAMAS has employed throughout it’s history. No matter how bloody it was.

Will HAMAS moderate it’s views for the short term? The answer is written in it’s history and is plain as day. They will never change and may even intensify it’s efforts using any means necessary.
Hamas Concil of Foreign Relations
Muslim Brotherhood



posted on Mar, 27 2006 @ 10:30 PM
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As we mentioned, HAMAS has won 76 of 118 seats in the recent elections held in January with a voter turn out of about 80%. This is by far the largest responsibility attained by this party since its development, as they will be responsible largely for the daily lives of many Palestinians. Nizar Rayyan said in his celebration speech that he promised to restore the prosperity the town once felt, and this would all happen under the HAMAS administration. Political analysts in the area believe this is a hint that the current infrastructure is the prime goal of HAMAS. They are looking to regain the trust and support of the people, to do so it is being confirmed that a possible truce is in the makings.

HAMAS believes in its cause, they have made headlines with countless suicide bombings and the bloods of so many innocent lives are on their hands. I do not deny this, or try to hide it. But this was the way of the past for the HAMAS; they have made the first step. My worthy opponent says they only won the election due to the disgust towards the previous administration, but is that really relevant? Does it matter how many votes Bush won the election by? Will it be remembered that Gore actually won the popular vote? No, a win is a win. Regardless for what reason people have voted for the HAMAS, the votes were caste. The power has been entrusted in these candidates and with this power the HAMAS can finally carry out the changes they have waited so long for.

Now the HAMAS is always going to stride towards an Israeli free Palestine, but with this newly granted power it seems they will stride towards this goal in a peaceful manner. Just after the election results were reported, over 2000 soldiers spanned out over the southern borders and have been working with the Israeli’s through peacemaking and security cooperation. This is not a resolution, but it is a strong indication that HAMAS is attempting to make strides towards moderating their radical views and efforts towards the Israeli population.

The HAMAS has a very dark shadow, one that can be very alarming to all of those involved. However they are making all of the right strides and have to be judged on how they proceed with this power granted to them by their constituents. HAMAS has already agreed to at least honor a one year case fire agreement against the Israelis which right there indicates moderation has already taken place.

Again I come back to the very dark passed of the HAMAS, which has to be the main flaw in my argument. Yes the HAMAS has been a radical terrorist group in the past, but looking at Fidel Castro in Cuba. He was seen as a radical until coming into power, and even though he does not see eye to eye with USA, he has done a lot for his people since coming into power. I view the HAMAS in the same light here, now that they have been granted the authority, they can finally do good and help the people they have longed to for so long.

Former President Jimmy Carter has been quoted as, “Give the HAMAS a chance”. He understands the HAMAS has a very dark passed, but he believes in the opportunity at hand and sees the probability of them giving up on their violent history. Carter closely monitored the elections in January which seen Fatah, who had been in power for several decades be over taken very swiftly. Carter has also stated that he was told by HAMAS officials that they are looking to run a peaceful administration and bring in unity between Fatah’s people along with independents.

This seems to spell moderation to myself.

Reference #1
Reference #2
Reference #3



posted on Mar, 28 2006 @ 06:56 PM
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“Give the HAMAS a chance”. This is a sentiment that I sincerely wished the world could afford to give them. Unfortunately, as I showed in my first post, HAMAS very roots make it impossible for them to allow any thinking person or government to give them a chance. HAMAS’ basis tenets call for the elimination of Israel.
It’s leaders have made it clear that Peace talks will do not good and that they cannot live with the enemy. Who is this enemy? Is it just Israel? No. Israel is just one of the enemies of HAMAS. Any person, organization, and government that do not strictly follow the HAMAS as well as the Muslim Brotherhood’s interpretation of the Qu’ran are their enemy. To HAMAS and the Brotherhood, has always been opposed to all forms of secularization in society and all Western influences.

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." This opposition to Israel in particular, and Jews in general, was a new theme which would keep recurring. There is political opposition to Israel as a Western colony, and religious opposition to Israel as foreign government controlling a portion of Dar al-Islam.


My worthy opponent believes that the extremist and terroristic arms of the HAMAS will be tempered and that their use of terror attacks are / will be things of the past. Sadly, this is not the case, Even today, the Islamic Jihad a branch of HAMAS has claimed responsibility for a rocket attack from northern Garza into Israel in an attempt to disrupt the Israeli elections. This is in direct conflict to

"We're not calling for conflict or the continuation of the bloodbath in this region. We are a government that looks out for the interests of the Palestinian people," Haniyeh said.


Another example of HAMAS not changing it’s spots, Now that the election polls in Israel have shown that the Kadima party with Ehud Olmert as it’s leader, HAMAS has decided to reject Olmert’s pre-election promise of a unilateral removal of Israeli troops. They are now demanding that not only does Israel remove it’s troops but now are adding that Jeruselem be turned over to Palestine so that it can be their capital but that Israel release all of it’s Palestinian prisoners. If this is a hint of how HAMAS is planning on mderating itself, I would be afraid of seeing what they would do if they said they were disarming!
Terrorists mark election; 2 Israelis killed
Reference
Hamas: We reject Olmert's plan



posted on Mar, 28 2006 @ 09:09 PM
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An eye for an eye will make us all blind, so why not take the stance of allowing HAMAS to play out their administration and see if they take action on the promises they are setting forth. HAMAS is more than a terrorist organization that has swindled an election. HAMAS has an annual budget of about $70 million, over 90% of this is put towards education, orphanages, sports leagues, mosques, soup kitchens, and healthcare clinics. Now that they are in power, they have the resources and abilitity to do even more.

HAMAS leaders today have to be conscious of their present surroundings. With Bush going from country to country to install democracy, the HAMAS must be aware that if they try to govern with an iron fist, they may be faced with opposition from surrounding countries. It is to their benefit and survival that they tone down the ways of the past. HAMAS wants to make a different for their people, they are finally in a position to do so.

My opponent says:


Any person, organization, and government that do not strictly follow the HAMAS as well as the Muslim Brotherhood’s interpretation of the Qu’ran are their enemy.


My opponent makes the argument that the HAMAS is a radical group who can not be dealt with or trusted because if somebody does not share their beliefs, then they are the enemy. United States, I believe are sharing the same umbrella here. If any leader does not agree with exactly what the United States stands for, they are seen as the enemy. Is it the standard belief that we can not negotiate or trust this government in America?

Back to the main goal of HAMAS, to have a Palestinian state free of Israeli’s who inhabit the land at the moment. Since coming into office HAMAS has attempted to contact different regimes who have declined to discuss anything with them until they accept the three proposals. HAMAS can not accept these though, if they were to accept they would be renouncing violence, yes. But they would also be accepting the Israeli’s which is not something they are prepared to do. The goal of the HAMAS administration now that is in power is to rid the Israelis off of the Palestinian land, but to do so in a peaceful manner.



Give the HAMAS a chance”. This is a sentiment that I sincerely wished the world could afford to give them. Unfortunately, as I showed in my first post, HAMAS very roots make it impossible for them to allow any thinking person or government to give them a chance.


As my companion says here, HAMAS is not entitled to be permitted an opportunity to govern. With an 80% voter turn out and a very decisive win for the HAMAS, the people have spoken. What right does any outside administration have to come in and say whether or not they are going to be permitted?



HAMAS continues to confine its attacks to Israelis inside Israel and the occupied territories.


This seems to go against the notion that everybody is the enemy of the HAMAS. HAMAS simply wants to come to a peaceful resolution with the Israeli population, and for the first time ever they are in a position to do so. Their future hinges of their actions from here on out. If moderation is going to happen, it will be in the short term.

All indications are pointing towards this on the horizon.


Reference #1
Reference #2
Reference #3



posted on Mar, 29 2006 @ 08:34 AM
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Unfortunately for my worthy opponent, the HAMAS’ own Charter proscribes the use of peaceful means of gaining their goals of a “Free Palestine” From the HAMAS Charter please peruse what it has to say on this subject:

[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware."
And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. 'Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah [himself] is the Guidance. And if you should follow their desires after the knowledge which has come unto thee, then you would have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper." Sura 2 (the Cow) verse 120. There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time(27), an exercise in futility. The Palestinian people are too noble to have their future, their right and their destiny submitted to a vain game. As the Hadith has it:

By their very canticle, to even try peaceful negotiation is not an option that they can use.

Even their slogan proclaims this

Allah is its goal, the Prophet its model, the Quzan its Constitution, Jihad its path and death for the case of Allah its most sublime belief.


Hamas has declared that Palestine is Islamic Waqf. Islamic Waqf means in English the forbidding of ownership. If as my opponent were correct in his assumption that this is only in regards to the Israeli occupation, then there would be a glimmer of hope for Hamas to become more moderate in it’s approach to the rest of the world. Unfortunately, the Hamas Charter even excludes ownership of Palestine by Arabs! Under the Hamas’ edict, Palestine should only be governed by Islamic law in every aspect of life. Not just in it’s people’s religious beliefs but in it’s education system, the government, even the citizen’s everyday life has to be in complete compliance with the Qu’ran. Hamas welcomes other Muslims into Palestine but, only those Muslims who share the Hamas beliefs and thinking. They even require all other Arab nations to allow their Jihad fighters as well as the Jihad fighters of other organizations passage through their nations so that these “fighters” can go and fight the good fight where ever the Nazi Zionists are.

The Hamas Charter is an interesting read, if a bit contradictory. Throughout most of the Charter it go on how the Nazi Zionists (Jews) needed to be removed from Palestine. Yet, way down in Article 31, they then turn around and state that Hamas is not against the Christian and Jewish religions. In fact it states that Hamas / Islam can co-exist with both these religions…. only under the Islamic shadow, to use their words.
The Charter also identifies both the Western as well as Eastern (Russia and the Communist Countries) as enemies of the Hamas and of Islam. As I have shown above, peaceful negotiations are proscribed under their charter, so Hamas would have no problem targeting other non Israeli targets in the future nor has it stopped them in the past. Hamas suicide bombers have targeted businesses in the past that were frequented by Westerners as well as Easterners.

My worthy opponent seems to have misinterpreted an earlier posting of mine. He seems to believe that I am proposing that Hamas should not be allowed to govern Palestine. I am sorry if you misunderstood what I meant. I do not mean that the Hamas should not be allowed in control of the Palestinian government. Far from it! They were duly elected by the people of Palestine and as such they are a legitimate government. What I meant in my earlier statement was that other governments should not and cannot trust Hamas. Their historical roots, it’s charter, and even it’s recent attacks, all amply demonstrate that Hamas does not believe in diplomacy unless it is through the use of their suicide bomber attacks on both military as well as civilian targets.

The Hamas may indeed, speak of peace with it’s neighbors. Unfortunately they will be doing this out the side of their mouths. They had a good teacher in Arafat the ex-leader of the PLO. Who would make peaceful overtures to Israel and the rest of the world, then when one of his “radical factions’ blew someone up, he would condemn them and then turn around and proclaim the suicide bomber a hero to the Palestinian people.
Hamas Charter
Islamic Waqf



posted on Mar, 29 2006 @ 03:26 PM
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My combatant here in this war of words seems to be focusing on the past of HAMAS. However, my focus here is on the future. I understand where the HAMAS has been, when the organization had no standing power they were acting out in violence and numerous suicide bombings. As I have said several times, the HAMAS now have the power; they have the ability to make a difference without resorting to violence. The HAMAS of tomorrow will not be that of yesterday. They are in a period of transition and are in need of time to prove that they plan to stand by the words of peace they have spoken.

It was only in 2004 when the HAMAS offered a ten year truce with the Israeli’s if they committed to withdrawing.

Hamas official Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi announced this truce which is a strong indication that yes HAMAS do want to claim a Israeli free Palestinian land, but in peaceful means. Violence has been the alternative for HAMAS when peaceful tactics do not work. It has been proven that HAMAS is not a terrorist group at heart, they spend close to $63 Million on charitable events annually, this all goes unnoticed in our media because it would begin to shine a different light on the HAMAS.

HAMAS runs a military that is divided into two sections, The Palestinian Holy Fighters and The Security Section. The main funding for these divisions comes from different unnofficial bodies who are threatening to cut back on the funds issued if they do not meet some of the requirements being put forth. If the HAMAS rejects the request they run the risk of losing alot of their funding, which in return could see them become an beached whale.

My word warrior has brought the HAMAS charter to our attention, and it probably does more for his argument then mine, as it does preach alot of violence and anger towards a certain group. Yes this is the truth, HAMAS is a well known terrorist organization known for bombings against Israeli's and those who deny their goal. All before HAMAS owned any form of authority, they had a mission of ridding their holy land of Israeli's. How could they possibly do this without resorting to violence? Was it right? Well right or wrong are not whats on debate here, the debate is whether or not they will moderate their tactics in the short term. And in this newly found authority, we have every right to believe it is on the horizon.

The charter will require amendments, has the American Constitution ever been amended or the Bill of Rights? All of this will happen in time.

Give HAMAS a chance.



posted on Mar, 29 2006 @ 05:36 PM
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Chissler seems to be under the misconception that I have only been focusing on Hamas’ past while he is presenting the Hamas of the present and the future. That is true to an extent. I will add one more episode from the past which only recently (today) hit the news. It seems that Moussaoui, the only man that has been charged in the 9/11 plot, admitted that one of his trainers in terrorism was from none other than Hamas.
As to Hamas in the present day, I would like to bring to your attention to my previous post pointing out the rocket attack from Gaza into Israel on 3/28 in an attempt to disrupt the Israeli elections. This rocket attack killed two Bedouin shepherds.
I will now offer some even more recent news that demonstrates Hamas’ dedication to it’s past. Shortly after taking office today, a Hamas representative reiterated that it will not soften it’s violent ideology towards the Israeli state. As I have stated previously, Hamas has rejected Olmert’s pre-election pull-out plans we also have Mahmoud al-Zahar who is the Minister of Foreign Affairs in the new Hamas government has painted all the Israeli political parties with the same brush with this statement:

"We won't interfere in the Israeli elections and there is no difference between one party and another since all of them are responsible for our miserable situation and all committed crimes against us," Zahar said.
"The important issue for us is bringing (people) who recognize the Palestinian people's rights and work on ending the occupation (to the Palestinian territories) and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict," Dahlan said, adding that the Israeli election was an Israeli internal issue.

It needs to be noted here that as I mentioned earlier that Hamas recognizes and is demanding the return of Jerusalem to Palestine.
All this inflammatory rhetoric against moderation comes on the heels of both the United States banning all contractors from having any contact Palestinian ministries. The sole exception to this ban is of course President Mahmoud Abbas and his offices. Canada has also stepped up to the plate and has suspended aid to Palestine.
These moves by the US and Canada and soon many more countries is not news. Hamas as well as it’s newly elected President have been well aware of the potential loses it would receive in foreign aid if Hamas would not tone down it’s violent tenets.
Even calls from Al-Qaeda to Hamas to tone down it’s stance against Israel have been turned away by Hamas since it was too weak of a stance. In fact in response to a recent Ayman al-Zawahiri tape (March 2, 2006) calling on the Hamas to continue it’s terror attacks against Israel, Osama Hamdan a spokesman for Hamas told Al-Jazeera that Hamas has no intention of recognizing past commitments to the Israelis.
Whilst we are on the subject of Al-Qaeda, After reading the Hamas charter that I presented earlier, as well as the links between the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas, you would think that Al-Qaeda and Hamas would work well together as their goals and methods are the same. You would be right in this assumption. As recent news reports have shown, Al-Qaeda may already be in Palestine. Two Palestinians who were arrested back in December while crossing the border between Jordan and the West Bank. On March 21st. an Israeli military tribunal has charged the two with membership in the Al-Qaeda militant group and who were plotting a suicide bombing of a pizzeria in Israel. To top this off, even the new President of Palestine Abbas has recently warned that Al-Qaeda was actively recruiting in Palestine which has also been confirmed by Israeli intelligence.
Yes, this shows that Hamas is moderating it's stance.

Moussaoui and Hamas
Israel, Palestinians cite Al Qaeda rise
Canada Suspends Aid to Palestinians
All Israeli parties commit crimes against Palestinians: Hamas
Al Qaeda Advises Hamas



posted on Mar, 29 2006 @ 08:16 PM
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This is a very hot topic in today’s society, the HAMAS is a group that is in the headlines on a regular basis and they will influence a lot of cultures in the coming months. The debate of whether or not they will moderate in the short term is a great one, but a very tough one from my side of the coin. The daily headlines only hurt my argument even more, so I come back to this. If HAMAS is ever going to change their views, it will be in the short term. With this recent election win, it is now or never for HAMAS. If we are ever going to change in this organization it will be in the short term, and it is my belief that with this new authority HAMAS has the ability to resort to non-violent ways.

HAMAS has to be viewed more than simply a terrorist organization trying to retain their holy land. As previously stated they are spending $63 Million annually on charitable causes such as education, health care and soup kitchens. HAMAS is making strides to make the daily life of their people better, and whether we agree with their tactics or not they seem to be helping. The decisive win in the election defends this notion, as the people have spoke up for who they would like in charge.

All outside forces on HAMAS are always trying to make compromises on different aspects, HAMAS has shown willingness to compromise but not when it comes to the Israeli’s. Things do not have to become violent to get what they wish, but it is a tactic they are more than willing to use if required. Ask yourself, if an outside force was willing to compromise on the Israeli front and help them retain their holy land in a peaceful manner, would this spell he end to violence with the HAMAS. The question is not whether it would be right or wrong, but would it make a difference.

I believe so.

So I will finish this up by saying it is now or never or HAMAS. If they are not going to change in the short term, then it will probably never happen. This is a period of transition for the organization and they need to make use of it. If they are ever going to be considered a government that can work together as a coalition with other governments, it has to happen now. The argument of short term or long term is a clear choice; it has to be the short term. Whether they do or not will be left to be seen. They are making strides in the right direction, but their can be no backtracks.

I would like to thank kenshiro2012 for the great debate! Nygdan for making it possible and the judges for volunteering their time.

Thank you!



posted on Mar, 30 2006 @ 03:26 PM
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Throughout this debate I have endeavored to demonstrate that Hamas cannot and will not moderate it’s stance on the use of violence as a ways to an end, or its Anti-Islamic ideology.
I have presented this argument through an exploration of the roots of Hamas which stem from another extremist organization called the Muslim Brotherhood.
We have looked through their history and I have demonstrated the Hamas’ propensity to use violence over any other means to gain it’s goals.
We have examined the official charter of the Hamas which dictates that peaceful negotiations are prohibited and that there can be no peace until the state of Israel has been destroyed. My worthy opponent has set forth that perhaps they could amend their charter to allow them to no longer use violence or to allow a peaceful co-existence with Israel. Unfortunately, since these are cornerstones to it’s beliefs, they could never even consider this option. It would be tantamount to asking a Christian or a Hebrew to amend the Old Testament (or Torah) so that the 1st Commandment which states “Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” To now allow the belief in other gods.
We have also examined how even though the Hamas has won political power in Palestine and realize that if they do not deny their use of terrorism, if they do not turn away from their anti-Israel ideals that they would start to lose what international support Palestine had been receiving. Instead of taking that step forward to make peace of any kind, Hamas steps up and not only avow never to soften it’s stance on the use of violence against Israel. They have now stated that they will not honor any previous agreements and promises that have been made between past Palestinian governments and Israel.

Yes, it would bode well for all Palestinians as well as for the rest of the world if the leadership of Hamas would moderate their stance on violence and Israel. Unfortunately, all the indicators are pointing not to moderation but I can see where they may be planning an escalation of their violence. The rhetoric which they have been espousing since winning the election, leads me to believe that they will use the withholding of foreign aid as another propaganda tool to whip up more support against Israel as well as the rest of the world, since according to their charter, the governments and many organizations around the world are lead by the Nazi-Zionists (to use their words).
My hat is off to my worthy opponent in this debate. Even though he was given a nearly impossible stance to defend, he did an admirable job! It was a good debate.



posted on Mar, 30 2006 @ 07:58 PM
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Excellent efforts gentlemen! The Judges will now review the debate and we should have a decision before long.



posted on Apr, 3 2006 @ 11:39 PM
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This was a tough debate for our judges. When the final tally was in, the Old Guard beat out the Youngblood; Kenshiro2012 wins!

A selection of Comments:


kenshiro2012 seem to providers the best indicators of what might happen.



both sides ignored the current climate of former terrorist organisations switching to more political means to carry out their mandates, i.e. the IRA, ETA, etc.



This was a tougher debate to judge.



Kenshiro addressed the question more directly



Extremely tight, I had to read it over a few times. Both debates were interesting, well thought out and presented



Chissler [...] admitted that it was possible Hamas would not moderate itself in his closing argument. Kenshiro just kept reciting the past as indication of the future. Chissler should have shown how becoming part of the political process was already changing Hamas


Excellent job to both, a really good showing. I suspect that Chissler will be gunning for some fresh blood out in the forums for a while, and hopefully he will plunge into the next tournament as enthusiastically as this one!

Kenshiro2012, prepare to defend yourself in Round 2!





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