Slain because he refused to call his mother's lesbian lover `Daddy'

That was probably not even why she killed her. There were probably a lot of different elements at play. Maybe the woman was jealous of the little girl, or maybe she was just power hungry. I doubt that could be the only reason.

Originally posted by thermopolis
The key issue here is a 4 year old child being beaten to death for not calling a "Woman" [Daddy]......................That is what makes this story insane.

If the issue of "hate" crimes is based on the "intent" of the criminal while committing an act (murder, etc) then this story is valid..........this is a "hate" crime.........

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne


What church do you attend? What book is it that you call your holy book? Don't tell me that it is the Bible, because if that is so, it is clear that you haven't read the second half at all.

When you get around to reading it, you will take note that G-d hates the sin, but loves the sinner so much that His son was sent to die to be the ultimate sacrifice. By the way, YOU aren't perfect either, so He died for YOU, too.

As you read your last sentence, take not that you have judged these people, deemed them unworthy and sentence them to Hell. When you read the Bible, you will see what that means for you. Do you know the future? Do you know that the ones who are living in that particular sin might find and accept Christ in the next split second? Do you know His plan? But you judge, sitting in your own filth?

Stand down, mister; you are WAY out of line, you make it sdound as if you might want to call yourself a Christian, and I prefer that blind bigots do not try and represent MY belief.

Wow TC. Too bad you are a mod, otherwise id vote a good way above for ya. You are one of the few people Ive seen on this whole board that grasps the whole Christian spirit.

Thats EXACTLY what the Christian faith teaches. Tho Im not Christian, I was raised as such, and thats something I was always taught. Homsexuality the act, god hates like any other sin, such a lying or killing. But he does not hate the homosexual. He loves them as much as he loves the Christian. It is actions that bring God grief. But, in gods eyes, all sin is equal. If Hidden Reality has lied, than you are as dirty in gods eyes as a homosexual unless youve asked forgiveness.

So stop pretending to be god and condemning homosexuals to the firey pits of hell, please, if you are claiming to be a Christian. If you believe the bible, than you know only GOD, and not you, or anyone else can judge them for their sins.

If you want to be a good Christian, why dont you first pray and ask god to forgive you for your presumptions of holiness, and then pray for the souls of those homosexuals you condemn. Pray that they change their ways. Pray for the peace of the family that lost this little kid. Pray for good things, you know? The big Man upstairs actually listens when you pray for good, unselfish things.

Gods above and below, why must I play Sunday School teacher for some people who cant even be bothered to read their own holy book?

Originally posted by Greeneryrocks
That was probably not even why she killed her. There were probably a lot of different elements at play. Maybe the woman was jealous of the little girl, or maybe she was just power hungry. I doubt that could be the only reason.

It was a little boy not girl.

Just pointing that out so ya know.



Also, since I forgot to add in my last post, I think it was Tyriffic who first said something about it, but anyways I sat on the toilet to pee up until I was 11, no one taught me to do so, and I knew most males stood and pee'd, I just prefered sitting.

I don't anymore, but I'm just saying it's not unnatural for a boy to sit to pee.

[edit on 4/4/2006 by iori_komei]

There are a few unpleasant realities here that the politically correct, will wish to ignore. The first of course is that God, in his Holy Scriptures has condemned homosexuality. This is an unavoidable fact. However this condemnation is not necessarily greater than any other sin such as murder, theft, greed, lust, idolatry etc.

Just as the one true God inhabits the praises of the saints, the god of this world, the devil inhabits sin. He promotes it and hangs around those who practice it. So it is not surprising that homosexuals have much higher rates of domestic violence than heterosexuals. Just ask any policeman who has to respond to domestic disputes. Domestic violence is rampant in lesbian households in my area and it is likely to be true worldwide.

Sadly homosexuals also suffer from many health care issues and have a life expectency that is reduced by 20 years over hetero's. Just ask an insurance actuarian about this. Since they can not screen for homosexuality, the costs of insuring homosexuals is borne by the rest of society. I could go on, but I can already hear the howls of protests from the unbelievers.

Would you care to provide respectable links to back-up any of that?


Honestly I think thats all bunk.


Also, religious writings are not fact, so please do not call them that.

Originally posted by SevenThunders
There are a few unpleasant realities here that the politically correct, will wish to ignore. The first of course is that God, in his Holy Scriptures has condemned homosexuality. This is an unavoidable fact.

Your belief in it is the only "fact" here. I don't believe there is a god. I don't believe there is a satan.

My belief is as strong as yours.

Just as the one true God inhabits the praises of the saints, the god of this world, the devil inhabits sin. He promotes it and hangs around those who practice it.

So what's the main difference between you and me? You use your beliefs to promote hate, I use mine to promote tolerance.

There are religious people I like and respect very much on this board. Read what people like Thomas Crowne and Valhall has to say. They believe in god AND love. Wow, how do you think they do that?

People like you give religion a bad name.

Peace.

g

PS: iori_komei has a very good point. Some people here accuse homosexuals of being bad parents, and bad for society generally.

Bring evidence for your claims. Post links. I am open to all scientific data. Put up or shut up.

[edit grammar]

[edit on 4/4/06 by gekko]

Gekko says:

It must be horrible containing so much fear and hate. I feel pity.

Good luck.

g

Well, I do not fear anything but God. I pity those who think they can strike fear into people to change the way they truly beleive by simplisitc, name-calling comments is puerile. I do not cater to the simplistic charge of "homophobe" since the definition of "Phobia" is unrealistic fear....this does not apply to me, sorry. I understand the attack and will defend. Be aware.

As for the smiley....you said it all fella. But I think you expounded much too much in response

I kind of suspected that was what you were getting at. I don't know how to brake this to you, but that is one of the least erudite things I have ever read on these boards.

Well, I stop my car with a brake and am happy to grant wisdom to the under-read..... You obviously do not read much.

Gekko says:

Unless the lesbian couple had told him to sit while peeing, he would have to be pretty dim not to figure out how things work by him self.

Great, blame the victim for not being smart enough at 10 not 4 (do you really read?) to understand.....
I rest my case....the rest of your post is not worth rehashing. Silly.

Take care FELLA....

[edit on 4-4-2006 by Tyriffic]

Gekko says:

Your belief in it is the only "fact" here. I don't believe there is a god. I don't believe there is a satan.

My belief is as strong as yours.

Your belief is not as strong here. You believe in no absolute fact, either Evil or Good. You believe in no real thing at all. You are absent of belief. Your faux fight for PEACE will never come to fruition.

That is the shame for you fella....

Originally posted by Tyriffic
I do not cater to the simplistic charge of "homophobe" since the definition of "Phobia" is unrealistic fear....this does not apply to me, sorry. I understand the attack and will defend. Be aware.

I never said you had a phobia, but now that you pointed out the meaning, I would say it's a pretty good description of you. Defend away.

Well, I stop my car with a brake and am happy to grant wisdom to the under-read..... You obviously do not read much.

Feel free to slag my english of whenever you don't have anything better to say. I'm dyslectic and english is not not my mother tongue. Your reaction is as expected from schoolyard bullies. I don't mind it if it makes you feel good about yourself.

Great, blame the victim for not being smart enough at 10 not 4 (do you really read?) to understand.....

I said the original victim was four. You wrote that the "victim" in your little story was twelve. It seems that you read nether my post nor your own...

I rest my case....the rest of your post is not worth rehashing. Silly.

I see you don't take logical criticism to well. Not that I´m surprised after reading your previous stuff.

Any luck finding real information supporting your claims?

g

Originally posted by Tyriffic
Your belief is not as strong here. You believe in no absolute fact, either Evil or Good. You believe in no real thing at all. You are absent of belief.

All I said was that I don´t believe in god or satan.

Thanks for showing everyone a perfect example of how you state as fact, things you have no way of knowing.

Keep on digging...

Peace.

g

There are religious people I like and respect very much on this board. Read what people like Thomas Crowne and Valhall has to say. They believe in god AND love. Wow, how do you think they do that?--Gekko

Hey, what about mwa? I feel unloved, unlike homosexuals by God.(Had to get that joke in)

Anyways, yes, the defenition of phobia does seem to fit him since he seems to fear them for irrational reasons. Not like a fear of say, rabid dogs or poison spiders. Those have a reason to be afraid of, rabies and poison, he just seems to fear gays because they are gay.

Originally posted by gekko
I never said you had a phobia, but now that you pointed out the meaning, I would say it's a pretty good description of you. Defend away.

Gekko said previously:

It must be horrible containing so much fear and hate. I feel pity.

....my emphasis added....

I suppose you were just complementing me on my t-shirt??


Gekko said:

Feel free to slag my english of whenever you don't have anything better to say. I'm dyslectic and english is not not my mother tongue. Your reaction is as expected from schoolyard bullies. I don't mind it if it makes you feel good about yourself.

I was never the bully my froind..lol...your english is very good- don't make excuses.

I said the original victim was four. You wrote that the "victim" in your little story was twelve. It seems that you read nether my post nor your own...

..and the difference is?


Gekko speaks:

I see you don't take logical criticism to well. Not that I´m surprised after reading your previous stuff.

Hmm. Logical. In your warped way I suppose your idea seems logical. I don't think so. I think you are quite illogical and devoid of common sense. You can't have children and if you do, I pity them. The real info I have is walking the streets as crack whores, male prostitutes and mind numbed zombies who, as you may see everyday, are filling the rolls in society's homeless shelters and foster homes.

Besides, what is there to learn from a person who refuses to face his own mortality. If you believe in nothing, then you can not have any real hope for mankind and your brother/sister. If one is devoid of any base reality and absolute truth, what LIE cannot be had??.....we can debate this....I will enjoy it!!

Gekko ammends:

Any luck finding real information supporting your claims?

Hmmm. My claims. Well.....I think most of the whole wide world agrees that men and women belong together and men and boys and women and boys do not, despite the hoopla from some sectors who try to paint another picture !?? I don't need "real" info to support the truth that has been, and is currently under revision by the likes of you to prove to you a single iota.

Pearls to swine....

Originally posted by DevinS
There are religious people I like and respect very much on this board. Read what people like Thomas Crowne and Valhall has to say. They believe in god AND love. Wow, how do you think they do that?--Gekko

Hey, what about mwa? I feel unloved, unlike homosexuals by God.(Had to get that joke in)

Anyways, yes, the defenition of phobia does seem to fit him since he seems to fear them for irrational reasons. Not like a fear of say, rabid dogs or poison spiders. Those have a reason to be afraid of, rabies and poison, he just seems to fear gays because they are gay.

I wasn't going to reply but you insult me indirectly.... I think you put all people who are "conservative" into one basket. Wrong. Some may not air their views so readily here on ATS...I do not give a darn what people think of me here.

God is Love and Judgement. -------------------------------I will let you think on that. If you are not reading the right book it is not my fault. I try not to harbour ill feelings towards anyone as I am told to do. I am content in hating my own sin and others sin no matter what. Sometimes I give in and piss off!!!!lol.....

Hypothetical situation:
A man walks into a common, everyday church in Nebraska. He sits at a pew and minds his own business. Others glance at him with interest and the murmuring begins- what's he doing here?- why is he in here?- yet, one person stands and says: Welcome to HIS House!

I don't hate the man, I hate the sin and it's results.

Originally posted by Tyriffic
The real info I have is walking the streets as crack whores, male prostitutes and mind numbed zombies who, as you may see everyday, are filling the rolls in society's homeless shelters and foster homes.

I guess you know alot of gay people then? Or do you do crack, pay male prostitutes or live at the shelter to know that's where they all hang out and what they do? Because this arguement is the most blatant show of your ignorance in the matter.

Until the human species transcends its aniimal consciousness...things far more atrocious than this will/are occuring...

Originally posted by thermopolis

Four-year-old Jandre Botha disobeyed an order to call his mother's lesbian lover "Daddy''.

So the lover, Engeline de Nysschen (33), viciously assaulted Jandre while demanding that he must call her "Daddy".

Jandre died from his injuries, which trauma expert Professor Mohammed Dada said were similar to those of a person who had fallen from a double-storey building.

Yesterday Vereeniging Regional Court magistrate Rita Willemse found De Nysschen and the mother, Hanelie Botha (31) - who did nothing to protect her child - guilty of murder.

Jandre's father, Jan Botha, sat in court holding the hands of his fiancée, Yolanda Deysel, and listened attentively to Willemse, who, in her judgment, accepted evidence that among the reasons that led to Jandre's brutal ordeal was his refusal to call De Nysschen "Daddy".

www.thestar.co.za...

I post this to show the harm "gay marriage" is doing to society. This entire story is simply insane. Media always covers "men" beating thier wives and all things evil about "men", how about this story?

Please someone explain this?

ok so this is about lesbians??? hmmm well I don't see the religious contention here... 2 sickos killed a child...end of story... I have some gay friends and they cry at the smallest thing...one of my budgies died and he (it) was crying, sobbing ...I couldnt get over it...as usual we have one person's behaviour extended to incorporate all...what a load of crock... I have plenty of gay friends and they just dont fit this criteria!
Thats like saying all cases of infantcide are caused by women who are suffering post natal depression...

stop the generalisations...

Wow this has progressed quite a lot its quite interesting really, the people who don't claim to be christians are actually more liberal minded then the so acclaimed "christians". =] ironical really since quite a lot of the bible teaches that you should perfect yourself before criticising the actions of others. However the main reason I post on this thread is to the christian who call out damnation left right and centre. I've seen how damaging hatred like this can be, I'm probably gonna stop posting after this but I'll just leave a few messages.
1. Sorry if I've caused offence in any of my posts, I've read through them and seen quite a few places where I've said the wrong thing. I just hope you can understand my general message.
2. Don't hate anyone, for any reason (as impossible as that is), I try to live my life accepting everyone, I fail a lot, its true, but i try. Hating does no one any good, it'll eat you up eventually =[
3. Don't have disdain for anyones ideas, everyone has the right to an opinion (as you fought for in the US) so less flaming =] more backing up your ideas with facts (though I've done very little of that )

I'm gonna stop now, as I'm just preaching at you, which I don't have any real justification for =[

Good luck to you all!!

whyfish?

It is amusing that anyone who speaks his/her mind concerning their belief system and the tenets thereof are lambasted and labled bigots, haters, gay haters and fearmongers.

It is amusing that those who promote deviant behaivor, mommies who want to be daddies and to do dire actions to gain that right see no wrong in this and jump to the same defense: "straight people kill kids too!! Whether it be by post partum or whatever....the difference is this. There are sick, murderous individuals out there who are ostensibly hetero. Then there are hopefully rare cases like this one, where a woman desperate to assume a role she can never attain, breaksdown and kills the child she supposedly loved with her lover............tell me where this sounds like the norm.

This is twisted like nothing else. Just plain twisted.

I for one, have not said I hate anyone. I do hate the behaivor of some. It also seems that tolerance only works one way now. If you don't agree with the veiw of some, you are a bigot, racist and hatemonger. Sorry, I will take all of the insults just to keep my right to express my thoughts, ideas and political leanings that anyone can dish out. And will not stoop to call the same individuals bigots, haters and racist when they assail others who differ with them....
If there were no restraints on our behaivor, there would be no law in the land. I know some here like that idea but that is not a good thing to be. My original point and anecdote was a correlary to the original story. It did happen.

Originally posted by gekko

Originally posted by SevenThunders
There are a few unpleasant realities here that the politically correct, will wish to ignore. The first of course is that God, in his Holy Scriptures has condemned homosexuality. This is an unavoidable fact.

Your belief in it is the only "fact" here. I don't believe there is a god. I don't believe there is a satan.

My belief is as strong as yours.

Just as the one true God inhabits the praises of the saints, the god of this world, the devil inhabits sin. He promotes it and hangs around those who practice it.

So what's the main difference between you and me? You use your beliefs to promote hate, I use mine to promote tolerance.

There are religious people I like and respect very much on this board. Read what people like Thomas Crowne and Valhall has to say. They believe in god AND love. Wow, how do you think they do that?

People like you give religion a bad name.

Peace.

g

PS: iori_komei has a very good point. Some people here accuse homosexuals of being bad parents, and bad for society generally.

Bring evidence for your claims. Post links. I am open to all scientific data. Put up or shut up.

[edit grammar]

[edit on 4/4/06 by gekko]

It is not hate to point out that one's actions lead to death. If I warned you to stop riding your unicycle near the edge of a cliff would I be 'hating' your or oppressing you by taking away your precious unicycle?

Since the Bible says that homosexual activity is a sin, the implication is that homosexuality is a choice. Thus there is no such thing as being gay. There are only poor choices. Christians are commanded to warn people about actions that lead to spiritual death, which is far worse than physical death.

Just look at the fruits of this particular sin. We have rampant pedophilia in the catholic church, which has been overrun by homosexuals since it's unscriptural marriage laws are a convenient way to hide their homosexual activities.

A recent study, with a very large sample I might add shows that homo's experience domestic violence at a rate that is a factor of 10 larger than heteros
www.familyresearchinst.org...

We could then look at disease statistics if you want, but that will just get more depressing for the homo. The sad fact is, that demons haunt your sins. These sins destroy lives and entire cultures! Save yourselves and get out of this deathstyle. It's not easy of course, but a commitment to change and the presence of the Holy Spirit, after repenting and turning to Jesus for your salvation will make all the difference. Many have come out of this lifestyle. You can call it hate if you choose to remain ignorant. But the life of Christ is love incarnate.

Originally posted by Tyriffic
It is amusing that anyone who speaks his/her mind concerning their belief system and the tenets thereof are lambasted and labled bigots, haters, gay haters and fearmongers.

That only happens when bigotry, hatred in general, hatred of gay people specifically, and fear seem to be key components of the person's belief system. This thread is about all four of those, and those who express those opinions are bigots, haters, gay haters, and fearmongers. That these may be part of a person's belief system is no defense of them; on the contrary, that fact is a searing indictment of the person who holds them.

I for one, have not said I hate anyone.

Yes, you have. You have just avoided using that word.

I do hate the behaivor of some.

No, you hate the people who behave that way. Otherwise, you would see no need to concoct ridiculous and absurd characterizations of that behavior to make it seem evil, or juxtapose two characteristics which are totally unrelated to each other (such as a woman's violent behavioral disorder, which resulted in the death of a child, and her sexual orientation) so as to imply, with no logic but that of irrational terror, that the two go hand in hand.

A Christian who reluctantly condemns homosexuality because of an honest interpretation of Bible passages, recognizing that he is causing harm to people but in troubled mind, holding to his beliefs, is one who genuinely hates sin while loving the sinner. I think they're mistaken nonetheless, but that's a separate question. I've encountered some people like that. But you are not one of them.

You, in contrast, drip venom and bile with every word. You loathe homosexuality from your very bowels, and anything you might find in the Bible to justify your loathing is an after-the-fact intellectual buttressing of a position you hold because you WANT to.

It also seems that tolerance only works one way now.

The laws of mathematics render that necessary. It is self-defeating to be tolerant of intolerance, just as multiplying a negative number by a positive only makes the negative go deeper negative.

Anyway, the advocacy has never been of "tolerance" in general, with no qualifiers. It's been of tolerance toward those who have been the victims of injustice, who have been persecuted for harmless or, in some cases, even beneficial traits. And that implies intolerance and condemnation of their persecutors.

If there were no restraints on our behaivor, there would be no law in the land. I know some here like that idea

On the contrary. I very much want to see restraints on the kind of behavior that would follow from bigoted, vicious views such as yours.