Originally posted by boogyman
Once again if the only problem is the legal issue why not change the laws to make it easier for people to come in as immigrants? Why force them to wait?

Here here, boogyman! Well said.

For that matter, if the only problem with child molesters is the legal issue, why not change the laws to make it easier for people to rape little kids! Oh, and we can free up a lot of prison space if we just make it easier for people to murder others!

Why didn’t we think of this before? Maybe it’s because it doesn’t make sense to change laws to appease criminals.

Originally posted by boogyman
It's not just illegal immigrants you guys have a problem with it's immigrants in general. You may not want to admit it but when you get down to it thats the root issue. You don't like foreigners and you want to control the flow of foreigners so that only those you deem suitably nonforeign gain access. Call a spade a spade.

Repeating this doesn’t make it true. In fact, I have to wonder why it is so hard for some to believe that people like me (and many others here) simply have a problem with illegal immigration and all that it entails. Does the race-baiting allow you to feel better about yourself? Does it give you some sense of moral superiority? Do you not realize that by ignoring what people say, you just alienate them and make them want to blow you off, rather than engage in fruitful discourse?

Originally posted by boogyman
I'm not a politician so I'm not going to pander to you quite frankly all I can tell you is deal with it

That’s what people are trying to do; deal with it. Unfortunately, you don’t seem to like the suggestions of how to deal with it. Why not try listening (and perhaps believing) when someone says they have a problem with illegal immigration? You wouldn’t disbelieve someone who said they have a problem with murderers, would you? So why is it so difficult to believe that they would have a problem with other criminals?

The facts are these: (1) There are problems with illegal immigration, (2) most people don’t have a problem with legal immigration, (3) those few who do have a problem with legal immigration can be written off as racist a-holes. Let’s not unfairly do it to the rest of us.

Finally, let me say this; I am all for stopping the flood of illegal immigrants, and then dealing with immigration reform. I’ve recently been speaking with a family member who works for an organization that helps illegal immigrants find jobs, buy houses, get loans, etc. It bothers me, but I wanted some more info, so I asked lots of questions. The fact of the matter is that legal immigration is prohibitively difficult. In Latin America, it takes literally years to even get an appointment with the correct agencies to try to emigrate legally. Then, 9 times out of 10, a person is just told no. If they are allowed to proceed, the emigration process takes several more years, and costs thousands of dollars (money that most people trying to emigrate just don’t have). And, this doesn’t even touch the corruption in the system. We clearly need to change the system, but we also need to do things in the proper order.

We need to stop illegal immigration first, then work on the system. Imagine if you lived next to the Mississippi river. When it floods its banks and floods your house, do you concentrate first on bailing out your basement, or do you spend your time filling sand bags to try to stop the water from overflowing its banks in the first place?

Maybe this time, you’ll try listening and accepting what people say, without just rushing to judgement.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420

Originally posted by Striker8441
The point of my post was that YES there are some illeagls that DO cause harm. Come take a look at the jail where I work, 1/3rd of the inmates are illegals and they were arrested for something OTHER than being illegal.

I'm sure if we made a comparison of the percentage of legal citizens that cause harm compared to illegal immigrants that cause harm we would have a very interesting figure that some may not expect.

I’m sure you’re absolutely right. Unfortunately, much as it may seem like it, that’s not really the point. We can discuss crime in general at a later time. But, to suggest somehow that crimes committed by illegal immigrants are okay or justifiable because citizens commit crimes as well only skirts the issue. It seeks to negate the effect of illegal immigrants on crime, the criminal justice system, and society in general by pointing out that other populations also commit crimes. That is irrelevant, I’m sorry to say.

What you are doing is using an illogical argument and an emotional/guilt appeal in an attempt to negate a point. I will assume that the mistake was accidental and just attempt to correct the oversight.

You’ve ignored some very basic facts here. First, while there are criminals in all populations, the illegal immigrant population is, by its very definition, entirely criminal.

Second, this particular population, with some very simple methods (deportation, a giant wall, National Guard troops on the border, massive fines for employers, changes in immigration system, etc.) can be almost completely prevented from criminal activity in the United States. That can’t be said of almost any other group in this country, without massive revocation of Constitutional rights (which, clearly, would make any method no longer simple).

Third, while I’m sure the vast majority of illegal immigrants—their definitive criminality notwithstanding—are decent, law-abiding people. That doesn’t really matter though. By removing all of them, we guarantee removal of those who engage in illegal activity above and beyond that initial criminal act. Therefore, the net effect of the removal of all illegal immigrants on crime totals and crime rates will necessarily be positive, regardless of who else is in jail.

Thus, Striker was correct in his refutation of your point that illegal immigrants do not cause harm. Accepting this, can we move forward into more productive solutions, or do we still need to rehash these old arguments and useless, race-baiting, blame-game guilt tactics?

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
When I see the populations of our jails, however, one would look and say that blacks and hispanics are the only people commiting crimes, when it often turns out that they are the only ones the police are looking at.

Finally, let me add that I just recently emigrated to another state from Montgomery County, Maryland. Land of the Mercedes, BMW, and Lexus (mostly driven by young men and women who’s daddies bought them for their 16th birthdays). Lots of rich people in MoCo. In fact, it is one of the wealthiest counties in the entire United States. What’s the point?

The point is this: who do you think the police “are looking at”? Rich white people? Or are they looking for illegal immigrants?

Shortly before I moved, our county councilman, Doug Duncan took a trip to El Salvador, met with the President of El Salvador, and then gave a speech to the Salvadorans, telling them that MoCo would be a safe haven for them (regardless of immigration status). Essentially, he just invited a whole slew of illegal immigration to the county. And do you think the cops are on the lookout for them?

No. It is actually against county policy in MoCo to ask for proof of citizenship. Nor is it allowed—by county policy—for the police to arrest people for immigration violations. So, we have groups of illegal immigrants holding rallies at high schools (Richard Montgomery, to be exact), with local cops providing security rather than arresting the illegal immigrants. It’s a little backwards in the opinions of most people.

you have put into a graph what I have been trying to say.

They are taking over in GAINT numbers to rise up and revolt against us. They will do it in sheer numbers and bankrupt us from with in. Envision it like a swarm of 20 million hungry ants crossing the border wit the intent to wage war with us.

We have been silently invaded since 1995 and the government just stands back with it's thumb in it's hiney KNOWING it's happening.

President Fox engourages and instructs his people to come here, take adv antage of the system, then revolt and take back what they think it theirs.

You have voted Regenmacher for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

[edit on 28-3-2006 by MauiStacey]

Welll, thank the lord I speak spanish

I would just like to clarify and state that I do not believe we should repeal all immigration laws and enact an open-border policy. I merely bring up the concept to highlight what I percieve to be an inherent hypocrisy in the opinions expressed by some of the vocal members of he anti-immigrant crowd. I just don't understand how you can hate illegal immigrants and love legal ones when the only real difference is a sheet of paper. So if the only reason you hate them is because of that sheet of paper why not get rid of that sheet of paper? I don't believe that the mere act of bordercrossing is worthy of becoming a felony, maybe in some despotic nation but not here in the good all US of A.

I think it's a real forest for the tree's issue.

Immigrants are an easy target, the only reason they are an issue now is because some politician decided to pander to the vindictive segment of the right that hates these people so much they feel their mere presence is worthy of becoming a felony. No one has the cojones to talk about the real issues here, no wants to talk about how this really about governmental policy that is too business friendly. As long as we're talking about a major corporation it seems like no one has a problem with rewriting laws to appease criminal activities.

Originally posted by LDragonFire


Do you see "In Russian where availible"?
Or in Arabic where availible? Or Hebrew where avialible, or Dutch, German, Scottish, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, French?????

Actually yes I do the fact that you haven't only goes to show how isolated a life you live. Give me time I can even provide pictures. Don't confuse pragamtic business sense with appeasement. Don't confuse a lack of education for a lack of assimilation. Last I checked no one ever learned a language overnight.

Originally posted by boogyman
I would just like to clarify and state that I do not believe we should repeal all immigration laws and enact an open-border policy. I merely bring up the concept to highlight what I percieve to be an inherent hypocrisy in the opinions expressed by some of the vocal members of he anti-immigrant crowd. I just don't understand how you can hate illegal immigrants and love legal ones when the only real difference is a sheet of paper. So if the only reason you hate them is because of that sheet of paper why not get rid of that sheet of paper? I don't believe that the mere act of bordercrossing is worthy of becoming a felony, maybe in some despotic nation but not here in the good all US of A.

The point is is that Legal immigrants came here Legally. They respected our countries rule of law by abiding by it!!...Illegals do not respect our rule of law. So if they are willing to break our laws just by comming here what other laws are they willing to break.

STAY HOME AND FIX YOU OWN COUNTRY, instead of coming to the USA and draining our social services, schools, and jobs.

Originally posted by boogyman

Originally posted by LDragonFire


Do you see "In Russian where availible"?
Or in Arabic where availible? Or Hebrew where avialible, or Dutch, German, Scottish, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, French?????

Actually yes I do the fact that you haven't only goes to show how isolated a life you live. Give me time I can even provide pictures. Don't confuse pragamtic business sense with appeasement. Don't confuse a lack of education for a lack of assimilation. Last I checked no one ever learned a language overnight.

They haven't been giving any incentive to learn English.....A self inflicted problem a mistake if you will made by the US government years ago.....ANYTHING you buy in the USA has directions in English and Spanish Any Call center you call is in English and Spanish....Does this make since when only 12% of the population Speaks Espanol??????

Originally posted by MauiStacey
you have put into a graph what I have been trying to say.

They are taking over in GAINT numbers to rise up and revolt against us. They will do it in sheer numbers and bankrupt us from with in. Envision it like a swarm of 20 million hungry ants crossing the border wit the intent to wage war with us.

We have been silently invaded since 1995 and the government just stands back with it's thumb in it's hiney KNOWING it's happening.

President Fox engourages and instructs his people to come here, take adv antage of the system, then revolt and take back what they think it theirs.

You have voted Regenmacher for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

[edit on 28-3-2006 by MauiStacey]

Has there been any evidence of a violent revolt? If numbers are all you were going by, then they are still an unbelievable minority? Not to mention that in this statement you make no distinction between legal and illegal immigrants. Is it the illegals who will wage war, while legals will fight on our side? Who knows, maybe the legals are just spies for the brown army!! I guess I'm more worried about Canadians crossing the border and being polite to me.

Originally posted by LDragonFire
They haven't been giving any incentive to learn English.....A self inflicted problem a mistake if you will made by the US government years ago.....ANYTHING you buy in the USA has directions in English and Spanish Any Call center you call is in English and Spanish....Does this make since when only 12% of the population Speaks Espanol??????

12% of the population is a pretty big percentage. And, as far as I know, English isn't an official language yet, just the one most spoken. Does that automatically exclude all others because it is the majority? Besides, this has no affect on you personally does it?

you know this illigal thing goes round and round again. the thing is that some people seem to miss the point even though that point is pointed out.

now i know that there are some who don't wanr ANY immigration out there, but most only have a problem with those that sneak in as a theif in the night. i am personaly anoyed that everyone who is against illigal immigration is automaticaly labled as biggits. as many here and in previous threads are continuasely pointing out we are against ILLIGAL immigration. those who wait their turns and do things correctly are welcomed with arms wide open by most.

why is there a procedure for immigrateing in the first place? why not just let anyone and everyone in? well for one it helps keep certain deadly sicknesses and disese out, that we have prety much gotten rid of in north america. things like tb, aids, ebolla,lepracy ect. those who legaly apply to immigrate have all sorts of tests to help keep these unwanted sicknesses and diseses out as much as possible. then of course you have all the smuggleing that happens with some illigals do to pay for getting across as well as some do for cash. there are many good reasons for LEGAL immigration.

then we ghave the illigals as cheep labour problem. that is NO excuse. APSOLUTELY NO ONE SHOULD GET PAID LESS BECUSE THEY ARE DO "MEANIAL LABOUR". that is a problem that breeds poverty which in turn costs the government more money. i am also sick of hearing about "without illigal labour the prices for things like food would skyrocket" well mabe if farmers got paid decently for what they grow/raise in the first place they wouldn't need to hire labourers for practicaly no pay. just cut down on the profits that the food industry (pacgeing/retail) make and there would be no need to raise prices. and if you had to pay more for a carwash, all well and good, mabe you might considder washing it yourself.

under no means should we just let anyone and everyone in. we DO have a way to immigrate. lets stick with it, THERE ARE REASONSE it is done the way it is.

double post

[edit on 28-3-2006 by drogo]

Originally posted by boogyman
I just don't understand how you can hate illegal immigrants and love legal ones when the only real difference is a sheet of paper. So if the only reason you hate them is because of that sheet of paper why not get rid of that sheet of paper?

Has nothing to do with hate so drop the impassioned labeling garage. Your rhetoric is the one of the worst cases of flawed logic I have seen in awhile.

The difference is those who break the law verses those who do not.
Those who pay taxes and those who are tax evaders.
It hasd to do with devaluing legal immigrants and rewarding anarchy.

Why don't I sneak into your home and take your possesions, after all it's only a piece of paper that says I shouldn't. Maybe everyone should start stealing your possesions and then protest about it when you lock your doors. Then we can change the laws to promote stealing, cause we don't want to enforce the law and we rather rip you off, than do it the lawful way.

Boogyman,

So far you are one of the few with common sense when it comes to this issue.

merely bring up the concept to highlight what I percieve to be an inherent hypocrisy in the opinions expressed by some of the vocal members of he anti-immigrant crowd

Very eloquent if I may said . . . and then the Anti immigrant crowd wonder why is a made into a racial issue.

Is not difference in the illegal immigrant and the legal one they are both Spanish and mostly Mexican background.

Immigrants are an easy target, the only reason they are an issue now is because some politician decided to pander to the vindictive segment of the right that hates these people so much they feel their mere presence is worthy of becoming a felony.

Well said, many that are screaming for the Illegal to get the heck off US fail to understand that is Our own government that has made possible for them to come freely into the US

What many fail to see is that Corporate America wants cheap labor .

What many fail to see is that The Corporate lobbyist are making the situation worst .

What many fail to see is that The compromised done on Monday will only bring more illegal in this country and more cheap labor work force to take the low pay jobs that Americans do not want to take.

What many fail to see is that if we force corporate American to pay equal pay for the illegal and immigrants then it will not be Jobs for them to come to this country because Americans will take those jobs

What many fail to see is that you should blame our politicians and our corporate government that is Keeping the national minimum wages low so they can benefit from the slave work of illegal and migrant workers

Take some lessons of what is going on in our country and start firing the ones that are making the situation worst not to benefit American and the illegal but to benefit corporate American.


BTW I see how many scream for the illegal coming from Mexico to take care of their country, but many fail to see that the ancestors that came into the new world did so because they didn't want to change or take over the problems of their own nation so they came to the new world rather than fight.

The difference is those who break the law verses those who do not.
Those who pay taxes and those who are tax evaders.
It hasd to do with devaluing legal immigrants and rewarding anarchy.

And if you woke up tomorrow and there were no laws, would you hold your head screaming and running for the hills. If you put too much faith in the law you lose what it is to be a free thinking human. You begin to become....dare I say it..... REPUBLICAN!!!!

Regenmacher

Take the Puertorricans out of the chart we are Born Americans.

That chart with Puertorrican in it is making me feel unwanted.

I am very distraught and having now panic attacks.

This is an attack to my Puertorrican roots.

I Imagine how the Cuban population in ATS will feel about that chart too.

Just a joke We own New York Florida belong to the Cubans.

Originally posted by marg6043
Take the Puertorricans out of the chart we are Born Americans.

That's legal hispanic citizens from the US census bureau, illegal citizens don't open the door for the census takers, which number anywhere from 11 to 23 million.

I have dozens of latino friends and few are for illegal immigration cause it cheapens all they had to work for coming here legally. Coyotes and the drug cartels on the other hand are all for a lax border policy, and grande gato gringos love thieir nose candy and slave labor pools.

I'm not into a narcorepublic or I would move to Obregon, join MS-13 and deal meth/cocaine. I'm not for more la migra laws either, enforce what already exists. They can quit cutting the social funding that forces states to take a hardliner approach and is pissing off the hispanics too.

[edit on 28-3-2006 by Regenmacher]