Final words on the Meier Case

All-
I know those who have followed the Meier thread prior, will know that I duplicated the photos often put forth as "beamships", due to the challenge by the American rep for the case. These were posted and many viewers even said they appeared to be better then those taken by Meier.

Shortly after, the American Rep was banned for abuse on this board stemming from the answer to his challenge.

The famous "Wedding Cake UFO" photographed by Meier, was next in line as it's one of the most easy to explain, due to it's attaction to "trees", and when not attracted to trees, it's obvious close proximity to the camera giving the signs of a small model.

Since then I have built a small similar styled model, and planned to shoot it in much the same setting using techniques I believe were used in the original pictures.

Since this would be the second "challenge" to me, by said representative, and knowing the firestorm caused by the last set of pictures showing how easy it was to do, I was in no hurry.

The endless "where are they???" by the supporters and Rep, I found amusing at the start. There has been a near constant barrage of attacks leveled at me to get them done and available for viewing. At one point the Rep., actually jumped the gun and said I "failed". Failed before it even started.

I posted a quick shot of the model I'd be using last night, and as expected, the barrage of insults, and name calling has been incessant all day.

I have had, enough.

I provided pictures shot of a model that show how easy these kind of shots are to make. This is just *another* model, to be photographed.

Why. The model isnt the issue.

However, what I see it now as, is giving that camp yet another baseball bat full of ammo to throw insults and personal attacks in my direction, and keep me in a defensive mode for weeks to come.

I dont need it. You think I'm fed up with it? Youre right. This case has been "over" for many following UFO events....for years. Why am I trying to show true believers anything whatsoever...because I can tell you *nothing* gets thru. Nothing.

Wanna know what the latest is? Now they want someone from their camp "monitoring" me so they're ensured I dont cheat with a computer, or CG. This, after posting the model, BOTH times.

I fulfilled my task of duplicating the pictures, I dont have the stomach to tolerate any more crap from these people.

I'm finished. They can believe, whatever they want, I'm completely indifferent to them, and the case.

Should I ever really get interested in producing some films or pics, maybe I'll lay into it....but dont expect it.

I believe I have shown, made, photographed, wasted more then enough time, and posted quite enough for anyone interested to make the call for themselves. I have lasted months of arguing, debating and personal attacks. I've flatly had enough.

They can say I failed, or that I cant do it, and that it proves the Meier case is "iron clad", I just dont care. The truth is I'm tired of the constant abuse and I quit. I personally believe that has always been the goal, with *any* Meier view that differentiates from their own, if they piss on you enough, you'll get fed up.

Well they win, I'm fed up, and I quit.

People certainly do invest a lot of energy and emotion to hold onto their beliefs, which is odd when you consider that the very nature of the word, "belief," indicates that they have no particularly good proof.

Rather than fess up and admit that after carefully analyzing the evidence they are willing to reconsider their positions, which would show them to be reasonable and smart (supposedly good things), they would prefer to stick to their guns no matter what.

But that's the way people are, I guess. That's why George Bush is President. People don't care what he knows (if anything). All they care about is if he's willing to take a stand and not back down from it. People like stupidity combined with stubbornness, maybe with a little smugness thrown in for good measure. They confuse stubborn with strong, and smug with self-confident.

If the evidence is strong enough, after 30-50 years, the truth of Billy Meier should be undeniable. People a lot smarter than me have looked at it and said it was essentially a con game gone out of control. That's good enough for me.

I'm nobody to tell others what they should or shouldn't believe. I don't care if somebody ends up bamboozled or wearing Nikes. People get what they ask for.

I think these aliens do indeed exist, but most of his story might not be true. You never know who might have there dirty little hands in it, and the countless ufo researchers. I last heard that billy tried to make money off of it in his alien building or museum or something in switzerland. But who knows wasn't whitley streiber a part of it also?

[edit on 22-3-2006 by malakiem]

JR I don't know how much more you could do.
It's like we used to say-
"you can only hit a mule in the head with a board so many times before he either figures it out or ya kill him".
I have first hand knowledge of where your comin from.
Btw nice model.

Wow! I just saw this post.
J.R. I know it must be annoying reading all these countless insults all the time. Now don't pay attention to nonsense that goes nowhere, you are doing the photos for us not for them.

Also you already demostrated that those pictures can be done without computers or anything related. As for the meier case they can't present a single photo or evidence that shows any extraterrestrial characteristics, everything can be humanly done. (hard, easy, who cares) it just can be done and that says a lot. And thanks to you J.R., we have a better idea of how it was done. So you see, just keep it up! I for one would rather buy a book from J.R. maybe entitled "THIS IS HOW IT WAS DONE UFO DEBUNKING" "HINT" than a book that you read back and forward and still don't show you anything more than "It's up to you to believe it" without a single concrete proof.
Again, show me anything, anything at all that can't be humanly created and then the case may have a point.

Jeff,

you already lost before you started. I'm surprised that you were nice enough to use your own valuable time in hopes of convincing people with blinders on. With already countless fact driven debunkings on this case these people will continue to blindly believe.

If I can't figure something out, I tend to gravitate toward experts like yourself and this one was exposed quickly. I believe you to be a dedicated and honest contributer with a passion not only to seek out new civilizations but also to find the truth.

IMO, there is a vast sea of unexplained phenomena out there. Stuff like Meier's crap just gets in the way of the new quests frontier’d on this site.

Interesting, and I'm not a Meier fan because he is known to have faked stuff in his zealotry but some very early pictures of his have been going around the web and they do not look easy to fake.

One picture had a saucer near a tall tree but at a fair distance from the ground, and the scale of everything indicates that the saucer was quite large. This picture was known from several decades before computer editing was possible. The likely expanation for debunkers would be a model but the scale involved would make it most difficult. The saucer did not appear in the foreground either in the picture.

Too bad I didn't keep the link. Will post it if I can remember. Either way, I still contend that some of Meier's material is legitimate and some of it is fake. The fact that some of it is fake is being used by the debunking crowd to explain away everything conveniently I believe.

I've noticed that sites with the "ray gun" pics no longer seem to have the image... They would be my "last word"...or perhaps the Asket/Nera hoax...magazine pics, etc. or other numerous times he was "caught"....

You can go here to see the commentary...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

But the pics aren't up anymore, no doubt because they really were hokey, hehe... Picture a woman in a gold jumsuit holding a white "laser" pistol about a foot and a half long, looking like it was made of some PVC pipes and other glued on tidbits....

Anybody around when that thread was active (and upon receiving confirmation from Mr. Horn that they were indeed Billy's pics), pretty much dropped it back then....

In my opinion, Mr. Meier is the worst kind of charlatan and seriously damages the credibility of the UFOlogy field.

Ever wonder why you don't see any interior shots of these UFOs he allegedly hops on all the time, or of the Pleidians (with the 6 fingers, not the 5 fingered humans he used for Pleidians in the past...or Plegarens, whichever he's calling them now)....??? I don't. I KNOW why we'll never see such pics, hehe....

[edit on 23-3-2006 by Gazrok]

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
Interesting, and I'm not a Meier fan because he is known to have faked stuff in his zealotry but some very early pictures of his have been going around the web and they do not look easy to fake.

One picture had a saucer near a tall tree but at a fair distance from the ground, and the scale of everything indicates that the saucer was quite large. This picture was known from several decades before computer editing was possible. The likely expanation for debunkers would be a model but the scale involved would make it most difficult. The saucer did not appear in the foreground either in the picture.

Too bad I didn't keep the link. Will post it if I can remember. Either way, I still contend that some of Meier's material is legitimate and some of it is fake. The fact that some of it is fake is being used by the debunking crowd to explain away everything conveniently I believe.

So ask yourself the hard question, IF some of it is real, then why would you contaminate such an event by faking pictures.

Nope, if you've faked shots, you just tossed the roll.

This is not "convenient" by any standard. If you do some looking into the camera used and forced perspective, used LONG before Meier, you'll know why that "ship" you refer to seems so "large".

Originally posted by jritzmann

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
Interesting, and I'm not a Meier fan because he is known to have faked stuff in his zealotry but some very early pictures of his have been going around the web and they do not look easy to fake.

One picture had a saucer near a tall tree but at a fair distance from the ground, and the scale of everything indicates that the saucer was quite large. This picture was known from several decades before computer editing was possible. The likely expanation for debunkers would be a model but the scale involved would make it most difficult. The saucer did not appear in the foreground either in the picture.

Too bad I didn't keep the link. Will post it if I can remember. Either way, I still contend that some of Meier's material is legitimate and some of it is fake. The fact that some of it is fake is being used by the debunking crowd to explain away everything conveniently I believe.

So ask yourself the hard question, IF some of it is real, then why would you contaminate such an event by faking pictures.

Nope, if you've faked shots, you just tossed the roll.

This is not "convenient" by any standard. If you do some looking into the camera used and forced perspective, used LONG before Meier, you'll know why that "ship" you refer to seems so "large".

Well first of all I can't comment on anybody's psychological profile but let me ask you this: do you all the time tell the 100% truth??

I'm willing to bet that nobody does.

In regards to Billy's photos he may have desired to recreate certain experiences for the effect. All the same I am not heavily into his stuff so I don't know why he would or would not do this. Then there is the assertion that Billy has been under the influence of a number of people for nefarious reasons.

You have to consider that pictures of his have not been debunked successfully too despite many people's assurances as such. Many of the shots of large scale ufo's have yet to be successfully be debunked considering the time they surfaced and the issues of producing large models. The pics of the smaller craft in the air and in the distance can easily be replicated via models in the time frame but some of the other photos not so easily. If you doubt it try it yourself, and remember there was no readily available photo shop back then. You would have had to make 40 ft across or more models and suspended them from highly unlikely places. It is not impossible but not probable for a person like him to do it. Also, if I am not wrong, he has personally never become wealthy from any of this either, although others may have. Whenever a crime is committed you have to look for motive too, unless you begin to believe that humans act irrationally in such situations, which I highly doubt.

In the end this story seems to resemble many around here, nobody can prove it 100% and nobody has disproved it 100% and me unlike most I don't see all these things as being black or white 100%. My experience is that life is not like that.

deny- you may want to read this thread:
www.abovetopsecret.com...'
It contains JRs photos. Also try Bruce Macabees site for his analysis of the pendulum craft. Or maybe IIG Wests excellent reproductions.

You said it yourself, the picture was taken while the ship was perched in a tree as is the case with most of the shots except the closeups.
Yet when other people are taken to the site of the photo shoot those crazy hundred year old trees have pulled up stakes and wandered off across the Swiss countryside.
IIG and JR however have no wandering trees in their shots. And neither are the craft nested.

Don't lose that open mind of yours.

deny- you may want to read this thread:
www.abovetopsecret.com...'
It contains JRs photos. Also try Bruce Macabees site for his analysis of the pendulum craft. Or maybe IIG Wests excellent reproductions.

You said it yourself, the picture was taken while the ship was perched in a tree as is the case with most of the shots except the closeups.
Yet when other people are taken to the site of the photo shoot those crazy hundred year old trees have pulled up stakes and wandered off across the Swiss countryside.
IIG and JR however have no wandering trees in their shots. And neither are the craft nested.

Don't lose that open mind of yours.

Well, it's mighty easy to say "do you tell the truth 100% of the time??"

When it comes to this, yeah, because if you dont, you WILL 100% get caught.

Now couple that with how important the UFO/alien question has the possibility of being.

Think anyone should be lying about it?

Now add in how ambiguous the nature of the phenomenon is. Wanna take someone at their word, and find out youre duped? Then, after that, take them at their word....again?

I hate to say it denythestatusquo, I'm sure youre a good guy and all, but I have seen you aggressively defend everything from bad CG to seagull pictures here. You've shown at least to me that you dont seem to be very objective and criitically dissect visual evidence. I'm sorry, and I dont mean to offend you, but look thru your posts. There is good data out there, but you need to *look* for it.

I play Poker. I constantly play odds.

If a good portion of fakes are found in a UFO case, what are the odds the earlier or later footage is going to be real?

You can bet all you want....go all in if ya like.

I'll call you everytime.
At some point, you have to know when to fold.

You would contend to me in this case that:
"ok some might be bad but not all".

Well lemme tell ya what, I'm gonna fill a bag with dog feces, and put a piece of chocolate in the bag too.

Is it worth the chocolate to look for it? After ya think you've found it, you must eat it.

By the way, the chocolate...will be shaped like a turd.

You have no one's word that there is actually a chocolate turd in there...I'm just saying there is. But, hell I'm a good guy right?

Good luck.









[edit on 23-3-2006 by jritzmann]

[edit on 23-3-2006 by jritzmann]

Great job Jeff! You know, I wrote a post yesterday to respond to Deny and it said almost the exact same thing you told him. However, I knew he wouldn't accept it, so I deleted my post.

I know it can get frustrasting, especially when you personally debunk a hoax for these people but they will never accept the facts. These are the kinds of people that scare me. This is a personality type that would do things such as shoot their spouse because they see a shadow or a leaf rustle and think it's a bear or an alien coming to get them.

Not saying Deny is this type since he is closer to the fence but I've seen some real nutjobs on here and if the shoe fits....

You have to consider that pictures of his have not been debunked successfully too despite many people's assurances as such.

It hardly takes a photo expert to debunk matchbox cars or composite models (especially when a ball bearing pops off and isn't even glued back on) used in shots. Billy's older pics are laughable in the extreme. Just because he eventually got better at faking UFO pics is no reason to believe he's in constant contact with aliens... His older pics of craft, "aliens", etc. and exposed hoaxes (Asket/Nera, the magazine "time travel" photos) do more to discredit him than any skeptic could ever hope to achieve....