The Defeatest Conspiracy in the U.S. - a question for all Americans

I will try and keep this topic simple. It involves a trend that I notice on a daily basis and it never ceases to amaze me what passes as suitable, non biased journalism and public opinion.

Why is it that the U.S. military just cannot seem to catch a break? When did our guys in uniform become the scapegoats and the kicking boys for the press and every other left wing defeatest in America? You can turn on the television to CNN or read any major newspaper or watch the news at any given time and you never fail to see or hear something completely negative about our troops. They are painted by the libs to be baby killers and monsters who butcher the poor Iraqi freedom fighters and the good upstanding guys who make up the insurgency in Iraq. An American soldier can't even spit on the ground without having twelve reporters write an expose about their misconduct.

We have a whole sub section of liberal hate mongers in America who's only purpose seems to be to promote an anti American defeatest agenda. Protest to a degree is fine, Im not talking about people who are against the war, as many of us on either side ARE. My question is how can these people, who have never served, who have no real insite into war or what takes place in a battle with terrorists, be allowed to constantly badmouth and defame our soldiers, kill morale, constantly talk of America as the enemy and publicly pray for it's imminent defeat in this war. I don't believe in censoring people with something to say, good or bad. However I am only curious - when did it become OK to hate your country?

When did it become acceptable to burn the American flag? When did it become ok to promote the murdering of your fellow countrymen. Especially the ones who are dieing in order to gurantee you that very right to complain. Some of the left wing demonstrators here in the states look a lot like the Muslims on television, dancing in the streets after 9/11, rejoicing in our nations tragedy.

And It seems that American troops are held under a microscope 24/7, having to fight against a ruthless mob of murderers with one hand tied, always to be sure and be righteous and justified 100% in everything they do. Meanwhile the insurgents murder women, blow up markets, use children as shields and live bomb couriers and you hardly hear a word of it. I am yet to see the mass demonstrations on college campuses or at the pentagon that condemn terrorism, that condemn the kidnapping and public beheadings of innocent people.

Where are the demonstrators who will stand up for the poor citizens of Iraq who have been brutalized by a rogue Saddam regime and now have to endure the horrors of the insurgency, who kidnap their family members and hold them hostage in their own villages under brutal conditions. Where is the condemnation and demonstrations opposing Iranian president Ahmadinejad who has publicly stated that his will and Allahs will is to see the destruction of Israel?

It just plain makes me sick that our troops are even over there. It's even worse that they have to die in that hellhole, while snot nosed college kids sit here on their lazy collective asses complaining (which they seem really good at) calling them butchers and monsters and such. I have always believed that people are entitled to their opinion, but I swear it just seems like we have people here in the U.S. that are sitting by like vampires waiting for our boys to die, happy about it even.

My question is directed toward Americans here, do we have a subversive political group here in the U.S. who's only ambition is to undermine our country and bring it to it's knees? Who are these people? Where did this self destructing defeatest attitude come from that so many liberals seem to have? Is there an ongoing hidden conspiracy here (communist, illuminati or otherwise) that is trying to make sure we as a nation fail? That we are villified and portrayed constantly as the bad guy? Is that REALLY what people here in America want...for our country to just lay down and DIE?

Again, I will state that I am not for the war in Iraq and I don't support Bush's policies in the least. But I understand that these guys fighting over there didn't have a choice. They are our sons, brothers, fathers, neighbors and friends. How can people simply sit by and let this type of hateful, anti-American sentiment breed and flourish on our own soil?

Freedom of speech is one thing, but when you turn against your own country and wish death upon our soldiers in order to further your own sick, misguided treasonous political agenda - it is time for a change.

Is this the type of thing that passes for political enlightenment these days? And if you are one of these people - what is your justification for your actions - who's side are you really ON? I would love to hear a perspective from the other side of this coin. Thanks everyone - flame away

For the record I am neither a Republican or Democrat, I am conservative on many issues and I am moderate on many issues. This thread is not designed to attck any particular political party as they are both sad and useless. This thread is an attempt to find out where this trendy defeatist hatred for America came from that exists within our own borders. I am not trying to openly offend anyone, I guess I am just from a different generation or a different belief system and this stuff troubles me a great deal. Being a fifth generation American and a former Marine I love my country, not it's leadership. It is one thing to stand against our corrupt administration, but one has very little to do with the other. I am all 100% for free speech, but where does it end?

Originally posted by BlackOps719
This thread is not designed to attck any particular political party as they are both sad and useless.

Wow, you fooled me. Your first post here that was supposed to be "simple" seemed like a clear bash at anything "liberal". Correct me if I'm wrong, after rereading your initial post.

Side note: It's a lot better now than it was for the VN vets. The populous seems to get the difference between a fighting man fighting an unpopular war and their personal intentions. Thank Christ.

I apologize in that sense. I didn't intend for it to be a hate thread against liberals. I share quite a few liberal ideals myself. It just seems that this is the source for all of this defeatist activity. You cant rightly say that you see any cons ervative types spreading this whole lay down and die defeatist agenda. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - then it is most likely not a dog.

Side note: It's a lot better now than it was for the VN vets. The populous seems to get the difference between a fighting man fighting an unpopular war and their personal intentions. Thank Christ.

I agree, I had an uncle who served in Vietnam, only to come home and have hippies spit on him as he got off of the plane. And it stuck with him for his entire life. I guess with all of the trauma and the violence that these troops are being exposed to in Iraq, I would hate to see the same things happen to them. Hard enough as it is I would say without having to deal with this type of thing. Your point is noted and appreciated Intrepid.

[edit on 22-3-2006 by BlackOps719]

Originally posted by BlackOps719
For the record I am neither a Republican or Democrat, I am conservative on many issues and I am moderate on many issues. This thread is not designed to attck any particular political party as they are both sad and useless. This thread is an attempt to find out where this trendy defeatist hatred for America came from that exists within our own borders. I am not trying to openly offend anyone, I guess I am just from a different generation or a different belief system and this stuff troubles me a great deal. Being a fifth generation American and a former Marine I love my country, not it's leadership. It is one thing to stand against our corrupt administration, but one has very little to do with the other. I am all 100% for free speech, but where does it end?

Answer:

I am a 13th generation american and I can honestly say that the people of this country are sick and tired of the lies and deception that our government pulls on us all the time. It all started when Kennedy was assasinated and then headed down hill to Nixon, took an upswing for a while with Reagan and now back to the bottom with Bush Jr. People just don't believe in the system anymore because the politicians have abused it and their power for way to long. What the politicians don't realize is that if they keep going, it will all crumble, just like Greece and Rome and then they will be out in the open without any protection and the citizens will eat them for lunch.

[Mod Edit - Formatting - Jak]

[edit on 23/3/06 by JAK]

People just don't believe in the system anymore because the politicians have abused it and their power for way to long

I feel the exact same way. Greedy politicians and slimeball corporations are running this nation into the ground. I don't agree with the policies of the Bush administration, I believe that our current government has done more to destroy our nations image and divide our country than any before it. Our basic rights are being stripped away in the name of security, our jobs are being sent over seas, our economy has been sucked dry. I hate Bush, I can't stand the smug attitude and the obvious indifference that he shows toward our well being.

BUT - what is the proper response? To open up the doors to our enemies? To raise the white flag of cowardice and lay ourselves at the mercy of those who wish to destroy us? I agree wholeheartedly that Bush and his cronies need to be removed before they manage to blow up the whole damn world, but I refuse to concede defeat to the likes of terrorists and religious zealots. I believe that our founding fathers had the right ideas when they set out to create a free nation, but greedy and corrupt men have shamed and bastardized the intended version of what this country was built upon. In short - it's not the country that is the problem, rather the morons who are running it.

No matter what the current administration does to prove otherwise, I still believe that America is the greatest country in the world, it is still my home, I will always be loyal and faithful to it. Take your rage out against the system, Bushco, the neck tie wearing war mongers who are responsible for the demise of our great nation, not our troops. I am absolutely for this, in fact I guarantee that I will be right next to you.

But, I will not sit by and watch someone burn the flag that my relatives and countrymen fought and died to defend, I will not sit idely by and let leftist "activists" demonize our soldiers and Marines as butchers and child killers. And I will not sit by and watch as America is dragged into the dirt by a bunch of misguided, over priveleged defeatist traitors who would rather lay on their backs, expose their yellow bellies, and pray for mercy from their enemies than they would stand on two feet and fight for their own survival. I don't claim to have all of the answers, but Im pretty sure that getting on all fours and begging for peace isn't going to get much accomplished. Just my opinion.

Originally posted by BlackOps719When did our guys in uniform become the scapegoats and the kicking boys for the press and every other left wing defeatest in America?

Vietnam era.

Originally posted by BlackOps719

I will try and keep this topic simple. It involves a trend that I notice on a daily basis and it never ceases to amaze me what passes as suitable, non biased journalism and public opinion.

Why is it that the U.S. military just cannot seem to catch a break...

Your entire argument looks like a straw man.

WHO is calling for the death of American soldiers? Maybe a few crackpots, but by no means any substantial or organized group - Perhaps except the Westboro Baptist Church.

The American people don't like the war in Iraq. And if you for a moment beleive that there isn't a lot of brutality coming out of our side over there, you're rather delusional. The average soldier isn't the target of these accusations - the top brass is, along with that handfull of soldiers who carry out the brutality. "Following orders" is no defense for a crime, remember. The majority of us here in America realize that the soldiers no more asked for this war than we did, and we honor them and hope they come home safe and sound as swiftly as possible. Veterans of Afghanistan and Iraq are the most well-received vets since the end of World War 2, do you realize this? We love these guys.

You further make the argument that a bunch of protesters in, say, Des Moines, impacts morale over in Tikrit. You really think that a bunch of people expressing their disgust for this war is going to make our marines, our soldiers, our seamen, cry in their K-rations? Guess what, there's plenty of men and women in our armed forces who don't want to be there, either! Perhaps it doesn't cross your mind that soldiers don't enjoy the war they fight as much as you appear to enjoy it. They see their friends die, they see innocents die, they see their leaders back here in the stats cutting their pay and insurances, skimping on armor and ammo, refusing to send backup, and cutting veteran and family benefits when they get home. Do you consider that maybe it's the chain of command and the environment these brave men and women are working in that causes a drop in morale?

We don't "hate our country". We hate its leadership and the direction they are taking this country, because we love our country so much. I can only speak for myself, but I would sure as hell eat a terrorist's bomb to my face than give up a shred of my liberties. I would rather face the threat of crazy people with hatred in their hearts that so many other nations ion the world have to face, than tarnish the beauty of America's ideals by trumpeting for war with random nations in the name of Oil and Jesus.

Where were your protests against Saddam? Your friends, your family, did you take to the street in the name of the common Iraqi man and woman? Did you condemn H.W. Bush for his formulationg and abandoning a "revolution" in Iraq? Did you lambase Reagan for his selling the chemicals to Saddam to use against the people of Iran and Kurdistan? If you didn't take up the cause against Saddam, then I severely doubt you turned sights on those two men. There's not a lot of room to speak on your part. I hear it a lot - "Where's the left's outrage over Christians being killed in Sudan!", for instance - to which I ask, "Where's the right's outrage over the killings of four times as many Muslims in the same place, at the hands of the same people?" Where was the outrage over Rwanda? Why did right-wingers oppose Clinton's attempt to prevent the massacres in Bosnia and Kosovo. Read some of their opinions from '97-'99. They make Nancy pelosi look hawkish. Where, exactly, can anyone get off criticizing "the liberals" for not doing something that they, themselves, would never have dreamed of doing?

What makes me sick, is that while our soldiers are over there dying, folks such as yourself seem to be hoping or more war so more of them can go die in new, more exotic places. People who themselves would never think of enlisting or allowing their own children to enlist. People like the chickenhawks currently formulating the wars, and their cowardly cheerleader ninnies trying to egg on more of it while dodging every chance they have to take part.

You say you aren't for the war. Well then why, precisely, do you accuse others who share that opinion of "wishing for our failure"? If you've been following any news but WND, you realize that that is happening, public opinion or no. It's due to incompetence at the higher levels. We're not wishing for it to happen. We're noticing that it's happening and trying to hold those responsable for it accountable. That's a rather large difference, you realize.





[Mod Edit - Removed unnecessary quote. Please review this thread. - Jak]

[edit on 23/3/06 by JAK]

My highest RESPECT goes out to you for what you just stated here.........,
you voiced exactly how I feel about this whole situation, I just wish that other people could see the truth in what you've stated.

Us Libs/Democrats haven't turned our backs on our troops, matter of fact we don't blame the Troops at all ( as apparently some seem to think ) we blame the people in control of our troops "Bush & Co". I had to laugh when I seen a reporter ask Bush" WHY he wanted this war", and the look on his face because she DARED to ask him such a question,..... and of course Bush tried to side-step that question as best he could, LMAO, but IMHO the best thing that could happen for our America is to be rid of Bush & Co once and for all.




[Mod Edit - Removed unnecessary quote. Please review this thread. - Jak]

[edit on 23/3/06 by JAK]

We have a whole sub section of liberal hate mongers in America who's only purpose seems to be to promote an anti American defeatest agenda. Protest to a degree is fine, Im not talking about people who are against the war, as many of us on either side ARE. My question is how can these people, who have never served, who have no real insite into war or what takes place in a battle with terrorists, be allowed to constantly badmouth and defame our soldiers, kill morale, constantly talk of America as the enemy and publicly pray for it's imminent defeat in this war. I don't believe in censoring people with something to say, good or bad. However I am only curious - when did it become OK to hate your country?

When did it become acceptable to burn the American flag? When did it become ok to promote the murdering of your fellow countrymen. Especially the ones who are dieing in order to gurantee you that very right to complain. Some of the left wing demonstrators here in the states look a lot like the Muslims on television, dancing in the streets after 9/11, rejoicing in our nations tragedy.

When did it happen? When it became fashionable to masquerade it as "true patriotism," that's when.

There are people that are against the war, and I have no problem with them. They are both Republicans and Democrats. But then there is a segment of the populace who simply delight in any news that casts a bad light on our troops. I'll leave it up to you to decide whether they are on the left or the right.

Walking Fox - thank you for your post. Your points are well recieved and I appreciate your conviction. Let me address a few critical points here.

The American people don't like the war in Iraq. And if you for a moment beleive that there isn't a lot of brutality coming out of our side over there, you're rather delusional

And I am one of those Americans who do not like this war as I have clearly stated. But like or dislike, these men and women dieing in Iraq do not get to pick and choose where they go and who they fight. They deserve the respect and support of the people that they are obligated to defend. I certainly agree that our military has dished out it's fair share of carnage during this occupation, but war is never easy nor clean and the fact remains that people die. My problem is the fact that these men are expected to fight a war under a microscope of constant criticism from an obviously biased press.

You further make the argument that a bunch of protesters in, say, Des Moines, impacts morale over in Tikrit. You really think that a bunch of people expressing their disgust for this war is going to make our marines, our soldiers, our seamen, cry in their K-rations? Guess what, there's plenty of men and women in our armed forces who don't want to be there, either! Perhaps it doesn't cross your mind that soldiers don't enjoy the war they fight as much as you appear to enjoy it. They see their friends die, they see innocents die, they see their leaders back here in the stats cutting their pay and insurances, skimping on armor and ammo, refusing to send backup, and cutting veteran and family benefits when they get home. Do you consider that maybe it's the chain of command and the environment these brave men and women are working in that causes a drop in morale?

I can certainly appreciate the plight of the American enlisted soldier because I WAS one for four years. I agree that while the military budget is enormous, the average man on the ground is being severely under equipped. That is one of my strongest points of distaste for the Bush admin, they will send you to die in a god awful desert but they wont even give you decent body armor to save your neck. And yes - they do cut military pensions, medical benefits and everything in between, without hesitation. BUT - if you are so callous as to believe that these men and women, who risk their lives every day, do NOT read the newspapers, watch the news reports and read the internet blogs that constantly defame the war effort, that constantly bash them for the "atrocities" that they supposedly commit. You think for an instant that a 19 year old kid fighting in Iraq for his country does not get disheartened when he hears of anti-war rallies and protests back home, in places like Des Moines, if you think for one second that this stuff doesn't bother them you are sadly mistaken. These people rely on our support and it is absolutely irresponsible to state otherwise.

Where were your protests against Saddam? Your friends, your family, did you take to the street in the name of the common Iraqi man and woman? Did you condemn H.W. Bush for his formulationg and abandoning a "revolution" in Iraq?

I live in North Carolina near Cherry Point, near Fort Bragg and I see first hand what happens to military families. What is my family doing you ask? Nothing, unless you count the fact that I have three college age cousins, a brother in law and a best friend who are in Iraq as I type this. Nothing unless you count the dozens of fund raisers and food drives that I take part in every month to help raise money, food and clothing for struggling military families who can't make ends meet. Nothing unless you count the programs that I help out with, not for profit groups who help soldiers and Marines who return home adjust back into a normal life, helping them find jobs, housing and overall support. You ask me if I spoke out against Bush's policy or Regan's agenda like I actually would be offended or take issue with your statements. I have stated in my previous post that I am neither a Republican nor a Christian so your attempts to bait me based on religious or political party affiliation will not be very effective.

What makes me sick, is that while our soldiers are over there dying, folks such as yourself seem to be hoping or more war so more of them can go die in new, more exotic places. People who themselves would never think of enlisting or allowing their own children to enlist. People like the chickenhawks currently formulating the wars, and their cowardly cheerleader ninnies trying to egg on more of it while dodging every chance they have to take part.

You and I are certainly on the same page here, except for the part about me HOPING for war or never thinking of serving. I agree that this society is made up of a bunch of wealthy, blood thirsty chicken hawks, who will gladly send a poor mans son to die for their noble cause, but would never in a million years send their own sons, or even go themselves for that matter. Perhaps if Jenna had to strap on gear and go disarm roadside bombs in Iraq this whole war would end pretty quickly.

You say you aren't for the war. Well then why, precisely, do you accuse others who share that opinion of "wishing for our failure"? If you've been following any news but WND, you realize that that is happening, public opinion or no. It's due to incompetence at the higher levels. We're not wishing for it to happen. We're noticing that it's happening and trying to hold those responsable for it accountable. That's a rather large difference, you realize.

You indeed are of a more moderate, sensible cut than many of your liberal breatheren. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but we are not failing in Iraq in any sense. Granted the entire premise for this war and the rationale behind it make little sense, our troops have accomplished what they set out to and are getting the job done, despite what NBC would have you believe. It is in fact the idiotic notion of occupation and "democracizing" people who do not want to be "democracized" - that is the major problem. I hate the fact that one more American life will be wasted in this stupid, irresponsible pet project that W. refuses to cut loose. If it were up to me I would withdraw the troops next week and leave the Iraqi people to lead themselves. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. My main goal is to see that our guys make it home alive and in one peice and that they are treated with the respect that they damn well deserve. And if you question wheather there are people out there in America who quietly hope for the deaths of our troops or take comfort in the breakdown of America as a country then I suggest you start here on ATS and read some of these WOT threads. Then tell me Im lieing.


So all in all Walking Fox, I believe that we agree on most points. And I do not accuse you personally of undermining our troops or harboring ill will towards America as a country. But I will pose the same question for you that YOU have raised to me - what are YOU doing to help fix the situation? What are YOU doing to protest this illegal, immoral war? What do YOU suggest be done in order to improve the state that this country is now in? Thank you again for your post's, you most eloquently stated your case and even I can appreciate that.