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CETME and H&K Weapons

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posted on Mar, 21 2006 @ 12:07 PM
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Wondering if H&K is a derivative of the Spanish firm CETME, Who makes similar rifles.




posted on Mar, 21 2006 @ 09:43 PM
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Uhmm, correct me if i'm wrong but I believe H&K obtained a Cetme rifle to get a hold of the basic FN FAL design, FN was not going to license a license for the FAL so they aquired a license from CETME instead which is a licensed FN FAL copy.

HK improved upon the CETME design.

I highly suggest to view the following articles:

CETME A, B, modelo 58, C

HK G3

FN FAL



posted on Mar, 22 2006 @ 02:35 AM
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G3 and Fal are completely different weapons, with different oparting principles:
Fal is Gas operated, tilting breechblock
G3 is Roller-delayed blowback

CETEME was designed by ex-Mauser engineers who fled germany after ww2 (same ones responsible for STG44, MG42)
Later on HK bought the license from CETEME, improved it and named the product G3.
only thing very similar in both weapons is the caliber and magazine

G3


Fal (or actually licence built Austrian STG.58)


[edit on 22-3-2006 by northwolf]



posted on Mar, 22 2006 @ 08:36 AM
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Just to specify some things...


Originally posted by northwolf
G3 and Fal are completely different weapons, with different oparting principles:
Fal is Gas operated, tilting breechblock
G3 is Roller-delayed blowback


Nothing to add


CETEME was designed by ex-Mauser engineers who fled germany after ww2 (same ones responsible for STG44, MG42)


No they didnt "flee" Germany. The head of the later development team, Ludwig Vorgrimler, continued to work in Oberndorf at the company Manurhin with special permission by the french authorities (Oberndorf, where Hk and the new Mauserwerke are situated today, is in the former French Occupation zone). Later he went to Spain to develop a new rifle for the spanish army at CETME (which actually isnt a company, its a spanish governmental design and experimental institution).

But those were not the ones that also had developed the Stgw.44 (a cross-breed of prototypes by Haenel and Walther) and the MG42 (developed by Grossfusswerke, actually not a weapon company, but specialized in mass production). The CETME rifle is built upon the prototype Stgw.45(M), which was a Vorgrimler project at Mauserwerke.


Later on HK bought the license from CETEME, improved it and named the product G3.


To be exact, the license was bought by the german government, actually not from CETME itself (as I said earlier this is not a "company") but from the dutch NWM (Nederlandsche Wapen-En Munitiefabriek) which handled european sales. The license could only be obtained because Germany promised to obtain all 20mm munition from NWM, too.

The license then was given to Hk (then a producer of sewing machine and machinery parts) and Rheinmetall and initial production rifles had "CETME" stamped on them and were given the designation "G2" (as opposed to the FN Fal which was dubbed "G1" back then - actually among the first rifles for German authorities were some M1 Garands and M1918 Bar´s). Rheinmetall stopped manufacturing to concentrate on the MG3 and their larger guns and cannons, and Hk THEN developed the CETME further to the G3 standard. The CETME rifle in turn adopted several of the improved G3 features in the later versions.

In the end I guess the current FN Herstal bosses curse the insulting letter of refusal of then-Director-General of Fabrique Nationale, Rene Laloux, to license build the Fal, as subsequently Hk took away so many market shares since then with the G3 and following products...

[edit on 22/3/2006 by Lonestar24]



posted on Mar, 22 2006 @ 10:22 AM
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But wasn't the CETME based on the FAL at all? I thought it was sorta based on it



posted on Mar, 22 2006 @ 10:33 AM
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No it's not.

Lonestar24
You are absolutely right, i cut some corners of the story in a hurry.

Only thing is that i tought Ludwig Vorgrimler and his team had to leave Germany for a reason or another (non ww2 related) and the spanish proposal of the new rifle desing came at the right time. (but my source may be wrong on this detail)

But the most important fact is that FAL and G3 have nothing in common exept the fact that they look superficially similar and they fill the same role



posted on Mar, 22 2006 @ 02:50 PM
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Originally posted by northwolf
Only thing is that i tought Ludwig Vorgrimler and his team had to leave Germany for a reason or another (non ww2 related) and the spanish proposal of the new rifle desing came at the right time. (but my source may be wrong on this detail)
...


The Marshall Plan and subsequent agreements between the western allies required an economically and industrially stable and self-sufficient West Germany to hold it´s ground as the first line of defense against future moves by Stalin. Thats why the denazification process was rather kind to "lesser" Nazis and/or criminals. Particularly Industrialists were only detained for short times despite some of them even being sentenced for 20 and more years in prison (mostly for employing slave workers).

The scientists and engineers themselves were largely left "unharmed", apart from the Dr. Mengele-type of course, and thats why a mass exodus of machinery engineers is not feasible. IIRC Vorgrimler himself designed 2 rifles for the French before leaving to Spain, but I don´t knoiw which ones those could have been.




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