Harvard Study Finds Pro-Israel Lobby Influences U.S. Foreign Policy

~~

Any Israeli lobby
or any zionist influenced groups that are seen as attached to
Israel politics or lobbies
have only the Authority, Prestege, Power & Influence, they are permitted or allowed to have.

Israel as an ally, and all the other lesser NGOs, influence peddlers, and other lobbies that are under the Israeli umbrella, are after all,
still only subordinate to the U.S. executive and legislative branches of our gov't.
To paint them as 'controllers' & 'puppet masters' of U.S. policies
is a useful tactic! usefull for many different reasons, including deflecting
attention from any then-current administrations' covert or nefarious undertakings.

consider:
Sec. Rumsfeld & VP Cheney, today involved with PNAC & neocon & the refocusing of U.S. strategic policies.
They are just 2 prominent carryovers from the Nixon-Ford era (+30 years ago)
when the covert agenda was to-> create a neo-fascist Amerika.
fortunately, the 'tricky-dick' cabal and regime was derailed by the eventual discovery of an impeachable offense & then WaterGate.
- - - - - - meanwhile, Israel, and all their NGOs & AIPACs, etc- - - - - - -
were in constant flux and change, engaged in finding a method of State/National survival in the M.E.
The latest which is, as alluded by the newly elected leadership,
creating a Fortress State having a continuous walled border by year 2010!

interesting thread, but it moves so fast
at the onset some question was made around Harvard & the Kennedy school presenting this paper.
my own view was that perhaps, & by whatever leveraging, the papers presentation was made thru these 'esteemed opinion makers' because of axiom
'if you tell the Lie loud enough & long enough...IT becomes the truth! '

Originally posted by St Udio

'if you tell the Lie loud enough & long enough...IT becomes the truth! '

Were you saying that the report is a lie? or were you refering to something else...

The info in the report is true... not even the "pro israel" side has contested that...
they have merely tried to paint it as anti semitic, or coming from "pro arab" angles..
both are equally obvious tactics, and do nothing to deny the facts presented...

The links that Regenmacher has supplied are very thourough, and enlightening...

they indicate that the main sign of "pro israel" influence is shown thru the corrupt and unethical process of gerrymandering, and vote concentration (very likely done intentionally)

The "pro Israel" side has assured themselves of a majority vote in all the districts they concentrate in... enough so, that any politician knows that voting "anti israel' will be a stain that will follow them througout a political career, or failure of one.

Logic would dictate, that politicians dont mess with the squeekiest wheel of the voting public.

the pro Israel side has their stuff together, and has studied how to get the most effect, from the least of the population...

any grass roots movement could do the same, but rarely shows the unity of the cause, that pro israel does...
it is that, that gives them strength, much more than money (money helps though, yes it does)

I suggest that the USA change up election laws and processes, so that the loop holes are removed, or at least moved...
one person- one vote, would remove any undue influence of gerrymandering.
contribution reform, would remove the temptation...

after that... it would all come down to who had the most sellable cause...

Originally posted by Deep_Blue

Now Saudi Arabia is much different story that Israel !. Do you think that USA puts Israel and Saudi Arabia in the same rank?!! If you think so then you are infinitely wrong. Potentially Saudi Arabia can form a threat on Israel, That's why I always considered the possibility that USA may invade Saudi Arabia one day.

Saudi Arabia is different to Israel in the aspect in that they have real power as in being the world's largest producer of crude oil. When it's all said and done, those that have the resources have the final word. So no, the House of Saud, OPEC and the Arab lobby is not off topic in regards to powerful lobbies. They have a large and vast base of natural resources to build on and they make oil dependent nations and wall street dance to their crude music.



Resource rich nations are the true dictators of market based and service economies:


It's rather easy to rationalize a position, if you skew facts and throw out the parameters that don't fit into your theory....but it doesn't make it correct, it makes it more biased propaganda void of workable solutions.

Want to increase the US's self interests, then decrease the dependence on foreign products. That doesn't mean invading other countries to steal their resources, condoning more oil dependence with pro-Arab views or blaming the Jew for our irresponsible way of life.

Talk is still cheap, real solutions and commodities are not.

[edit on 30-3-2006 by Regenmacher]

You have voted Regenmacher for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Kudos Rege...

You do good work...
I look forward to more valid research...

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
You have voted Regenmacher for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Kudos Rege...

Thanks Laz. I see the general aspect of this situation as another facet of the old blame game that is designed to divide and denigrate the masses. Blame the Jew, blame the Arab, Blame the Chinese, blame someone to perpetuate war, hate and hostilities. Considering America is made up of many racial and cultural goups this blame attacks our integrity and sours the meaning of the "United States".

Blame only gets so far until we run out of excuses and have to feed the family. We have the option of robbing the neighbor of his food, or planting our own food and being less dependent on outside resources. Our current adminstration took the pillage option and now that it is backfiring, the scapegoating has begun. Playing sides against each other in order to evade responsibility, digs us further into the hole.



My overalll message is we must re-learn what it means to be independent and vote accordingly, were as blame is not a solution. I do not want to kowtow to Islamic dreams, Zionist dreams, Europe's dreams or Chinese dreams. It's time for American dreams and to start supporting those American dreams.



The buck stops here, time to look in the mirror....




[edit on 30-3-2006 by Regenmacher]

Joseph Massad certainly has a lot of pent-up anger doesn't he? His article (found at: www.zmag.org...) (thanks to Regenmacher) is replete with his hostility and anger. Some of what he writes is undoubtedly true, but then he throws in things that are demonstrably false (such as his take on the 1967 Arab -vs- Israeli war), therby undermining his own credibility. He is obviously an intelligent man, but he seems to have interpreted much of modern history (particularly Middle-East history) with his emotions instead of his logic. A real pity, because what he attempts to portray is something that needs to be said and discussed simply because there are elements of truth in it.

One could counter his article by simply saying that the pro-Israeli lobby is so strong and effective that even it's enemies cannot tell the difference between what it wants and what the U.S. wants (or perhaps that we have become convinced that what they want is what we want).


[edit on 30-3-2006 by Astronomer68]

Originally posted by Astronomer68
One could counter his article by simply saying that the pro-Israeli lobby is so strong and effective that even it's enemies cannot tell the difference between what it wants and what the U.S. wants (or perhaps that we have become convinced that what they want is what we want).

Massad is pro-Palestine, anti-semitic, and anti-zionism.
Student comments about Professor Joseph Massad at Columbia University

Or perhaps it's because "what we want is really what we wanted" and the blame the Jew or Arab game enables us to skirt reponsibilities, while promoting more of the same immoral agenda. It has happened before and led to WW2. Current powers want to drive our thoughts to embrace a greater war. The executive branch, the legislature, the Pentagon's armchair generals or the corporate moguls will not be at the front. They all know it's the little guys that need to be prodded, swayed and divided, since they do all the actual fighting.

Hard to pick a side when they all are infused with crap
and we are left alone in front of the mirror, ehh?

Mirrors on the ceiling
Pink champagne on ice
And she said
We are all just prisoners here
Of our own device
And in the master's chambers
They gathered for the feast
They stab it with their steely knives
But they just can't kill the beast

The Eagles - Hotel California



[edit on 30-3-2006 by Regenmacher]

US's Rice: US Might Back Israeli Border Plans

The U.S. may be open to backing Israel's Kadima party in plans to draw the country's borders without Palestinian input, the British Broadcasting Corp. reported U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice as saying on its Web site Thursday.

The BBC said Rice made the statements in speaking to reporters traveling with her to Berlin for talks about Iran's nuclear development program.

The BBC added that Rice said a negotiated deal with the Palestinians was preferable, but seemed unlikely after the militant group Hamas won Palestinian elections.

More at source

What matters more than results? The results are that Israel gets what it wants even if it means stealing occupied land.

You talk about Big Oil as if they are the heavyweights, but other than the Arab nations where has any of them stood against the Zionist lobby? How many TV stations do the Saudis control in America? How many Newspapers? Where are the pro-Palestinian radio talk shows?

The power of the lobby is measured not just in their influence, but the lack of influence by their opposition.

Very well researched and presented. You have made great contributions to this thread and for that you've earned not only my vote but even more of my respect.

Meanwhile, the situation with the Walt-Mearsheimer arguments has taken an interesting turn:



I couldn't find any corroborating stories, but I have no reason to doubt the validity of the article. I'd like to know when it's coming out. It should be an interesting read.

Originally posted by Malichai
You talk about Big Oil as if they are the heavyweights, but other than the Arab nations where has any of them stood against the Zionist lobby? How many TV stations do the Saudis control in America? How many Newspapers? Where are the pro-Palestinian radio talk shows?

ExxonMobil is currently the largest mega-conglomerate on the face of the Earth, so who do you think they are dealing with and enriching the most? Who's the high cost of fuel hurting the most?

Money talks, bs walks....like I said when it comes down to the wire, all that yada yada won't feed the kids. When you hold the true power you don't need to fart up so much hot air. Palestine is treated as pawn and consider expendable by both Islam and Israel. The Palestinians need to wise up and stop kowtowing to other nations' interest too, or they will stay poor, demoralized and oppressed.

So if you expect me to buy into the idea it's better to sit on one political dung pile more than another, when all you plan to do is fling more poo from one pile to the other, then count me out. I'm not into the smell, the hypocrisy, or the brainwashing it takes to play that game.


Yada yada...you still pay da man!

[edit on 30-3-2006 by Regenmacher]

ExxonMobil is currently the largest mega-conglomerate on the face of the Earth, so who do you think they are dealing with and enriching the most?

In what way would their agenda conflict with billions of aid money to Israel, UN vetos and the threat of veto, wars against Israels enemies, and everything else the Zionist Lobby desires?

Exxon can have everything it wants without interfering with the Zionist agenda.

Can you show a single instance where Exxon went against them?

No one questions that there are other lobbies, but what lobbies seek to control foreign policy in the middle east in conflict with the zionist goals?

Originally posted by Regenmacher

Saudi Arabia is different to Israel in the aspect in that they have real power as in being the world's largest producer of crude oil. When it's all said and done, those that have the resources have the final word. So no, the House of Saud, OPEC and the Arab lobby is not off topic in regards to powerful lobbies.

House of Saud is Off-Topic.
Arab Lobby is powerless because they don't have common agenda. If the 5 top arab countries unite their political agnedas then they will have some impact. The power of the Israelis is because they have one goal one agenda.

If you think that House of Saud have real power because they are the largest producer of oil then you are mistaken. If the Saudis want to use Oil as weapon then the only way is to cut oil exports. So theorically the Saudis can make oil embaego against USA to influence US politics in Middle east. That sounds real threat but very improbable. You have to consider that Oil is the only resource for Saudi Arabia , If they stopped selling oil they will bankrupt.

It is dangerous to play with economy. Reducing Saudi oil exports will lead to reduced revenues and increased instability in Saudi and eventually Saudi economy could Collapse.


Oil is OFF-Topic:

For starter :

Saudis say they won't use oil as 'weapon'

But a Saudi adviser said his government would not use oil as a diplomatic tool to force U.S. concessions in the region or to change U.S. policy with Israel.
"Oil is not a weapon," said Adel Al-Jubeir, a foreign policy adviser to the Saudi government. "Oil is not a tank. You cannot fire oil. We have always said we support stable oil supply and will not use oil as a weapon."

Do you believe that Saudi can use oil as a weapon?

Oil Weapon Myth

The oil weapon is a myth and belief in that myth is crippling U.S. foreign policy.

First, let's dispel the notion that we need to worry about an oil embargo directed at the United States. Once oil is in a tanker or refinery, there is no controlling its destination. During the 1973 embargo on the United States and the Netherlands, for instance, oil that was exported to Europe was simply resold to the United States or ended up displacing non-OPEC oil that was diverted to the U.S. market. Saudi oil minister Sheik Yamani conceded afterwards that the 1973 embargo "did not imply that we could reduce imports to the United States … the world is really just one market. So the embargo was more symbolic than anything else."
Second, OPEC is hardly in a position to punish the industrialized nations with a radical production cutback. That's because one of the main causes of instability in the region is declining oil revenues. Saudis who've gotten used to living on the state's generous oil dole, for example, are now finding that the dole has been cut by 70 percent since 1980 and that jobs are scarce. Because there's no other source of revenue for these economies other than oil, a major production cutback would bankrupt the OPEC countries and almost certainly trigger revolutions.

Oil Weapon Myth
Declining oil revenues increase instability in moderate Arab states and thus make more likely bin Laden takeovers in countries such as Saudi Arabia.

An Oil Embargo Won't Work

Iraq, for instance, normally produces about 4 percent of the world's oil supply. If production outside of Iraq remained constant, if demand didn't change, and if Iraq's cutoff were permanent, the suspension of Iraqi production would increase oil prices by 40 percent. Yet since Iraq's announced production cutback, world oil prices have risen only 1 percent. This tells us that market actors don't expect the cutoff to last long and that other suppliers are more than capable and - as importantly - more than willing to meet the shortfall. If Iraqi exports resume after the announced 30-day suspension, global supply will only have been reduced by 0.2 percent for the year (that is, if all other production were held constant) - hardly worth worrying about.

An Oil Embargo Won't Work

Embargoes should not worry us. Production cutbacks should. But it's unlikely that the Arab world will cut off its nose to spite its face. As a Kuwaiti oil official told Reuters recently, "how can we support our Palestinian brothers if we do not have revenues?" Without petrodollars, the OPEC Arab states return to camels and tents and lose all influence on the global stage. And today the Arabs dominate only 40 percent of the world market as opposed to the 70 percent they held in 1973. This means that the world is a lot less vulnerable than it once was to the short-term effects of the oil weapon. The only fearsome thing about the oil weapon is fear itself.

I like the expression: “cut off its nose to spite its face”. If Saudi Arabia stops supplying oil then it will be killing itself , as oil is the only resource of income for them.





[edit on 30-3-2006 by Deep_Blue]

[edit on 30-3-2006 by Deep_Blue]

[edit on 30-3-2006 by Deep_Blue]

[edit on 30-3-2006 by Deep_Blue]

[edit on 30-3-2006 by Deep_Blue]

Originally posted by Deep_Blue
House of Saud is Off-Topic.
Arab Lobby is powerless because they don't have common agenda. If the 5 top arab countries unite their political agnedas then they will have some impact. The power of the Israeli is because they have one goal one agenda.

I like the expression: “cut off its nose to spite its face”. If Saudi Arabia stops supplying oil then it will be killing itself , as oil is the resource of income for them.

Don't give me that off topic garbage cause you want to evade the marco-economic aspects of the topic. Lobbies don't work pro-bono and just how long you think I been at ATS, 2 days?

They have a common agenda it's called greed. Why would the Arabs cut off the crude supply to either Israel or the US, when they are reaping a windfall and ahead of the economic game? Their power lies in the fact we are dependent on them for resources. If we don't buy their oil then we get no oil and our economy tanks. How long you think Israel would run if they stopped buying oil?

Look at the nymex charts, you don't see crude going down do you and you don't see the Israel lobby making a bit of difference. You get soaked either way. Pay the man.

[edit on 30-3-2006 by Regenmacher]

Regenmacher

Iam starting to suspect that you have your own agenda, why you are driving the discussion to be away from Israeli lobby.
We want to talk about the influence of Israeli lobby , do you mind? or are you trying to hijjak the thread?

BTW you are claiming that you are Unbiased and knowing-All , but you showed you real Pro-Israeli side.


[edit on 30-3-2006 by Deep_Blue]

Originally posted by Regenmacher
Don't give me that off topic garbage

Don't give me the garbage of Arab Lobby power... even a child knows that is wrong.

The Arab Lobby power

[edit on 30-3-2006 by Deep_Blue]

[edit on 30-3-2006 by Deep_Blue]

Let's All Go To The Lobby

[Majic decloaks]

Let's try to avoid discussing one another and focus on the topic. Comments directed at other members are, by definition, off-topic.

Providing context for analysis of the influence of the Pro-Israel Lobby seems reasonable to me, as long as other lobbies don't become the topic.

A point to consider may be how the Pro-Israel Lobby might differ from other lobbies in terms of its power and tactics. Is it just another Washington lobby, or is there more to it than that?

Members who are concerned that discussion of other lobbies for comparison may distract from analysis of the Pro-Israel Lobby are always free and more than welcome to ignore it and continue posting their findings and opinions of the Pro-Israel Lobby and Harvard study.

It's a big subject, so the more analysis the better.

Remember: Every member deserves respect. If you find yourself getting frustrated, try to relax and not let it get to you.

We're all ATSers, after all.

Members who abide by the AboveTopSecret.com Terms And Conditions Of Use are welcome to contribute their opinions, regardless of what they may be.

People will disagree about many aspects of this topic, but bringing those differing viewpoints together is at the heart of what ATS is all about.

Again, thanks for what continues to be a stimulating and inspiring discussion.

[Cloaking device engaged]

Originally posted by Deep_Blue

Iam starting to suspect that you have your own agenda, why you are driving the discussion to be away from Israeli lobby.
We want to talk about the influence of Israeli lobby , do you mind? or are you trying to hijjak the thread?

BTW you are claiming that you are Unbiased and knowing-All , but you showed you real Pro-Israeli side.

Get your head out of the box
We already know the Israeli lobby has a lot of influence. Who's saying they don't? No one! You tell me what you gain by casting blame while condoning usery from others? You tell me who can be influenced, if they don't listen? I have said blame enables the US to skirt responsibility, when the blame rest within ourselves. Your playing the same damn game as the lobbiests.

And hell ya, I have my own agenda, it's called independence from foreign influence and resources! So enough of your excuses and finger pointing, you want to change things then start by changing your own views and habits. The ping pong game is getting old.

Shift your assemblage point as Castaneda would put it.

The US needs it's own agenda with less excuse making and finger pointing for our lack of discretion. Time to own it, not throw it.



It all comes down to money in the end, lobby or no lobby. We either keep paying the man or seek independent thought to become independent in resources.

So start posting Israeli lobby articles and quit playing the role of a hypocrite, Deep Blue. Your blaming me for your lack of ability to think outside the box is getting tiresome and stale, just like the current US adminstration's excuse and blame someone else game is.






[edit on 30-3-2006 by Regenmacher]

Originally posted by Majic
Let's All Go To The Lobby

Yes please lets go to the Lobby

Thank you Majic

I felt that I am in the "Harvard Study Finds Pro-Saudi Lobby Influences U.S. Foreign Policy " wrong thread.

Originally posted by Regenmacher

You tell me what you gain by casting blame while condoning usery from others? You tell me who can be influenced, if they don't listen? I have said blame enables the US to skirt responsibility, when the blame rest within ourselves.
So start posting Israeli lobby articles and quit playing the role of a hypocrite, Deep Blue.

What are you talking about? when did I cast blame? And When did I play the hypocrite?
I talked about political conspiracies.
I provided some political facts.
Where is the blame thing you are talking about?. And where is the Hypocrisy ?!!!!!!

Now If I am providing evidences of the Guilt of the Israeli lobby then what's wrong with that?

Originally posted by Regenmacher
And hell ya, I have my own agenda, it's called independence from foreign influence and resources!

I am with you about that.
I also seek independency and freedom.
I want the American people to be independent from Israeli , Arabs , chiness and any other group. It is time for the Americans to reject the influence of foreign lobbies especially the Israeli Lobby (Which is the most harmful one).
USA must have its unique personality and agenda, not the Israeli personality and Agenda.


[edit on 30-3-2006 by Deep_Blue]

[edit on 30-3-2006 by Deep_Blue]

[edit on 30-3-2006 by Deep_Blue]

[edit on 30-3-2006 by Deep_Blue]

Originally posted by Deep_Blue
What are you talking about? when did I cast blame?

Okay so I will take that your remarks for blaming me for being off topic, a zionist and trying to derail things was all empty banter and you didn't mean it.

Israeli Lobby (Which is the most harmful one).

As for who's the most damaging: I'd say OPEC dependence and the Israeli lobby should be looked at and measured by their economic effects as a whole. Where as Israel is dependent on the USA for aid, and where as the US is dependent on Middle East oil. Since Israel parallels many of the same values we have, your logic would indicate we are harming ourselves aka masochism or we have suicidal tendencies. Now considering it's usually no easy task to overcome denial and accept the fact we are screwing ourselves as the world's only superpower can do, we resort to the old find a scapegoat blame game.

That game is crap, so let's get back to looking in the mirror,
before blaming the Jew again... shall we?



Jacoby goes on to say what I was trying to point out before I was blamed for hijacking the thread, only he writes a hell of a lot better than I do.



So look in the mirror my friends, look in the mirror and point the finger at the guy staring back at you. If we don't like the condition of our country, we must change ourselves, change our habits, change our way of life, change our reasoning of it, change the way we vote and unite behind each other.

Ahh life, so easy to hate and so hard to swallow our pride.