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Harvard Study Finds Pro-Israel Lobby Influences U.S. Foreign Policy

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posted on Mar, 27 2006 @ 07:57 AM
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Originally posted by denythestatusquo
Myself I find it troubling that maybe 2% of the total population of the United States can determine most of its foreign policy objectives.


You mean, you'd rather the other 98 percent decided?

There's a difference between mob rule and democracy, y'know.

Or... could it be that the 2 percent you're referring to are... Jews?

Brrrr.... it's cold in here all of a sudden.




posted on Mar, 27 2006 @ 11:19 AM
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Originally posted by Astyanax

You mean, you'd rather the other 98 percent decided?

There's a difference between mob rule and democracy, y'know.

Or... could it be that the 2 percent you're referring to are... Jews?

Brrrr.... it's cold in here all of a sudden.


I dont know what to infer from your statement...

The people that control these decisions are not Jewish (or are statistically normal ratios)

they are neocons, that have garnered the support of "pro israel" lobbies, and now seem to be willing to support Israel totally without looking at whether it is policy that is good for all Americans,
or just policy that helps Zionists...
or just policy that helps politicians campaign funds...
or more than one option.

but the question is mainly-
Does it serve the interests of the 98% of the country that doesn't have say in those decisions?
Even though the politicians are supposed to represent their constituents, they end up supporting a foreign country, that is often in opposition to our best interests.

The BIG PROBLEM here is:
much of the money we give Israel, all too often comes back to buy the very same politicians that support "pro israel policy"

In other words... it serves as a money laundering/kickback scam...

To give a secure comparison:
If i am a foreign country, and i tell 100 politicians
"vote for a billion dollar aid package for my country, and i will give back a million dollar donation (thru my 50 relatives) to each re-election campaign..."
then i have just corrupted those 100 politicians, and they have just sold out the 98% that they are supposed to represent...
but no, that is business as usual for the "pro israel Lobby, and there corrupt politicians that sell us out daily"

It is really time to clean house in the Senate and Congress...



posted on Mar, 27 2006 @ 03:12 PM
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Deny the Farce

I have been following this thread for quite since the beginning all the while going through the actual report itself, have come upon a disturbing development on the thread. Under the guise of carrying out an objective enquiry into the report, sadly this thread has become redolent with anti-Zionist diatribe. Transforming it into some sort of quest , rummaging through the recesses of the Internet to garner 'compassionate' viewpoints and editorialized 'facts' all in the name of unbiased 'objectivity'. Instead of presenting both sides of the coin for examination and critically examining these 'facts' keeping in mind the various angles to the situation, so that we may better understand the truth without bias or prejudice rather than simply damning one side and trying to bury it in a swarthe of links and malovelent rhetoric. It would be unfair to hold all those in this discussion complicit to such laziness but rather allow me to bring such pernicious tendencies to light.


[edit on 27-3-2006 by IAF101]



posted on Mar, 27 2006 @ 03:12 PM
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'Welcome to my Parlor',....
I think it is imperative that we spell out clearly what a lobby is before we delve into its influence and its effect on the security of the United States. As the main topic here is the total influence of one lobby over the administration, so understanding what a lobby does is also of importance.

Dictionary.com
Lobby:v. lob·bied, lob·by·ing, lob·bies
v. tr.
1. To try to influence public officials on behalf of or against (proposed legislation, for example): lobbied the bill through Congress; lobbied the bill to a negative vote.
2. To try to influence (an official) to take a desired action.

[Medieval Latin lobia, monastic cloister, of Germanic origin.]

So the key word here would be 'influence'. This influence can be anything from a blind kid offering a senator a candy to foreign agents blackmailing congressmen to betray their country. Lobbing has been used to uplift the downtrodden through favorable benefits, pull companies out of the red by granting them tax breaks and incentives, to sustain communities through incentives for local companies and businesses, to help corporate houses safeguard their markets through protectionist legislation, to help insurance companies hold the populace at ransom over medical care, to help pharmaceutical companies bypass FDA regulations and also most importantly to help foreign companies, nationals and governments benefit through America's foreign relations. That is we have both the good and the bad and just like the numerous incentives that are promised but never come through, there are numerous sops promised to companies and governments that also never fall through.
So what do we find unpleasant here ? Is it the fact that our senators are mere pawns that are swayed for particular narrow interests, have they not given a personal pledge of honor that they are not "employed as agents to persecute any claim pending before congress" or is it the fact that there are so many organizations that have bought up the hallways of power leaving the common man to believe that we are all at the mercy of these lobbies and their employers ? Or is it the general paranoia associated with the workings of the legislature and the halls of power ?

I think it is not fair to categorize all lobbies as the nefarious cabals that we make them out to be, for without them many an important legislation would not have come into effect. One such example is the efforts of various NGO's lobbing for an international ban on landmines which despite resistance by many major powers was passed through the influence of these NGO's lobbies. Not only have these lobbies helped these NGO's get the political will they need to ensure such legislation they have given the government great PR not to mention the many thousands of lives saved through this. These lobbies not only exert their influence to legislation but also to foreign policy and troop deployments like they did during the 1994 Rwandan Genocide, Congo, Serbia-Kosovo and most recently by bringing situations like Daffur into the spotlight in Washington. All this is done through lobbing the halls of power to take note of the concerns of a particular NGO or groups. They have in fact gained so much influence that ignoring such groups/NGO's has become detrimental to the senators and congressmen so much so that their support of such causes effects their credibility back home and determines their chances of getting elected again. In effect it is nothing more than being coerced into acting upon one issue or not on another.

Here is a good article that talks more about the clout of such NGO lobbies :

Washington Post-CLOUT WITHOUT A COUNTRY: THE POWER OF INTERNATIONAL LOBBIES
At 27, shambling and Kennedyesque, Marco Cappato navigates the diplomatic world with all the confidence and authority of a nation's ambassador .His nation is only an office, a cell phone and a global network of like-minded human rights activists.......
"The influence of France on African counties has been effective," Cappato said. "Why shouldn't we be just as effective?"
"Privatizing ideas can be good, especially for the weaker nations who don't have the means to be informed," said Cappato, whose group is an offshoot of Italy's Transnational Radical Party.

Opening the five-week conference here, U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan paid tribute to the way the work of diplomats and statesmen is being opened up to a broader and more contentious public through NGOs.
"In my judgment, this is a new diplomacy" he told reporters here. "We at the U.N. travel the world encouraging participatory democracy. I think we should apply a bit of it to ourselves."

"Let me tell you, they are very, very, very important here," said one Western ambassador with grudging admiration.

The most important organizations, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, might as well be major countries for the clout they have........ they want-making what they term "bilateral' calls on foreign ministers around the world,........ and deploying teams of experts.
They are supplying, free of charge, the demand of smaller, poorer countries who want a negotiating voice here but don't have the resources to support their participation.


When we consider international lobbies it is important to consider the role that the US plays in that part of the world, the level of influence it has and the amount of interest the State department is showing in that region.
It is ludicrous to assume that Congress would have full knowledge of all the ins and out's of every area of interest that these lobbies would represent. A comprehensive look at how lobbies effect this nations ability to make decisions and their utility to Congressmen is given by former Senate Majority Leader Robert C. Byrd essays for the Senate's 1989 bicentennial commemoration:
History of the Senate: "Lobbyists" September 28, 1987 (updated 1989)

An interesting article form 1999 about the most powerfull lobbing groups reveals that the AIPAC is not the most powerfull lobby in the US contrary to popluar perception.

AARP Tops Fortune'sList of Most Powerful Lobbying Groups for the Second Consecutive Year
"Washington lobbying isn't what you'd expect," writes Birnbaum. "The capital's mightiest lobbyists aren't shadowy creatures who shun the spotlight. Many are among the nation's best-known public servants who until recently were Sunday talk-show regulars, and in some cases still are."


One "myth" that most people on this thread have fallen prey to and this includes the article that works as the premise to this thread, is that a foreign powers/Israel in this case/ can fund political parties through their lobbies or directly to the individuals. This is simply not possible. Firstly, I would like to point out "FARA" [ Foreign Agents Registration Act ] which is specifically meant to identify lobbyists or "foreign agents" as the government would call them.


FAS.org
Foreign involvement in the American political process has long been permitted under federal law. In 1938, the federal government enacted the Foreign Agents Registration Act (FARA') to govern the activities of all individuals in the United States who engage in lobbying, political activities or public relations on behalf of foreign governments or companies.[21] As amended, FARA requires individuals who conduct political or public relations activities on the behalf of foreign governments or political parties to register as ``foreign agents'' and disclose their expenditures.

This act not only prevents those engaged in lobbing in funneling money to the political parties and candidates but also seeks to make their accounts publicly accessible so that their accounts may be monitored with greater scrutiny. It is the responsibility of the FBI to see to it that these "foreign Agents" do not funnel money into political campaigns and also if this is done to bring this information to the notice of the FEC. But there is no such caps on Foreign funding for financing their lobbing activities.


FAS.org
In 1992, the Justice Department reported that Hong Kong interests spent nearly $80 million on lobbying and public relations in the United States, with Japan spending over $60 million, Canada $22.7 million, and Mexico $1.5 million on lobbying for passage of the North American Free Trade Agreement alone.29 By 1996, a summary of the Justice Department figures showing that foreign interests spent over $400 million on such activities in the first six months of 1996 alone.[30]
A case of the Government of China allegedly trying to influence the electoral process in the 1996 elections known as the " China Plan" was reported to a Senate committee although no conclusive evidence was found.
Lobbing outside the electoral process would be possible to foreign interests but with certain restrictions of registering the lobbing groups under the "Lobbying Disclosure Act(pdf) " which makes it mandatory for every lobbing group in the senate to register themselves to the Secretary of the Senate or the Clerk at the House of Representatives so that their details may be open to public scrutiny at the Office of Public records.
The LDA guidelines are given here: www.senate.gov...
Also take into consideration the relationship between the LDA and FARA with respect to foreign lobbing groups. Because Federal Law bans :


FAS.org

  1. Foreign contributions to political campaigns.
  2. Campaign expenditures paid for by foreign entities.

Also the details regarding FARA can be found here :
www.usdoj.gov...

These laws together make the possibility of foreign governments funding electoral campaigns remote to say the least as not only do the lobbies face punitive charges but the FEC can also disqualify the candidate for unethical practices if his/her camping goes against Federal regulations. Not to mention the PR nightmare for the foreign nation in question. No senator or congressman would associate with this interest group and that would mean the end of their group in Washington.
I have however considered FredT's data regarding the Pro-Israel lobby's contribution to the electoral process, but the important thing here to realize is that the Government of Israel doesn’t finance these groups nor do they get channel money form Israel to the political parties as this would contradict with LDA. These pro-Israel lobby is essentially an American lobby that would promote its own domestic agenda while having certain sympathy to the plight of Israel and the terrorism they face. They fund themselves, they represent domestic interests mostly and sometimes international interests also as Americans while contributing to political parties. This money is in no way channeled from the Israeli government to these groups, instead they work mostly autonomously with regards to their missions as American citizens and support the continued existence of the Jewish people and Israel. This does not mean that there is some coordinated network between all these groups, so that they agree on all issues regarding Israel and its policies and work with any semblance of unity. This is simply not true! Most of these groups see the domestic situation in America be it Jewish Affairs, civil liberties, social welfare, healthcare etc to be their primary concerns rather than Israel. Only a few groups like AIPAC etc are receive funding and aid from Israel directly, mostly by business people and other Israeli interests to help promote and build Israeli commerce, trade, agriculture and manufacturing services with the US. Military and geo-political policy of the US in the region has always been curtailing even to the Israeli side with the severe restraint enforced on the Israelis regarding the handling of terrorism and other sorts of aggression from their arab neighbors.

Note: I will havent responded to the original article yet but I would like to do that in my next post.


[edit on 27-3-2006 by IAF101]



posted on Mar, 27 2006 @ 04:53 PM
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I have kept pretty good pace with this thread, and well...

what yo takin bout willis?

there is no "anti zionist" agenda being permiated here, my freind...
(we have tried really hard to keep those kind of comments away)
so it is funny that you say so...

But oh well...
Personally... I see this as an issue regarding one certain countries influence, and power over our government that is elected to serve OUR interests...

this article pretty much sums up, that many times the US position is placed by the lobbiests, not the 275 million Americans that should decide it...

Such is often the way...
now we cant expect 275 million Americans to even know what is good for them, but one thing is for sure...

If a politician takes money from a group, and then gives political support to that group, that is against the interests of the American People then he just participated in a politically popular game of selling out his voters

in the past, such action would have resulted in a temporary increase in demand for feathers and tar, but now it apparently is so rampant, that no one wants to rock the boat... (or the pocketbook)

IMO no lobby should exist that serves private interests...
and certainly no lobby should be subsidized by the American tax payer. That is what the "pro Israel" lobby is...
and American subsidized influence peddling group... we pay them to pay off our politicians...

and the funny thing is-
they justify this by saying that American and Israeli interests ARE THE SAME.
So then why do they have to have the most powerful lobby and the most influence in the media (not to mention squelching this report) to prove that...

if truth is truth, then why cant we give them all that support for free, and keep the money that we usually give them to give back to our politicians to convince us?

answer me that one (anybody)?
(the truth is, the goals aren't the same)



posted on Mar, 27 2006 @ 05:05 PM
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Originally posted by IAF101
Deny the Farce

I have been following this thread for quite since the beginning all the while going through the actual report itself, have come upon a disturbing development on the thread. Under the guise of carrying out an objective enquiry into the report, sadly this thread has become redolent with anti-Zionist diatribe.


A thread about the influence of the Zionist Lobby in America is naturally going to be Anti-Zionist as far as American foreign policy is concerned. No one is damning Israel, at least not in this thread. Maybe we are damning the politicians with dual loyalties, but so what? Representatives should represent America first.

You put up a lot of links and quotes, but you really didn't say anything about the content of the article. Do you agree with it? If not what parts do you find problems with?

[edit on 27-3-2006 by Malichai]



posted on Mar, 28 2006 @ 01:26 PM
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Originally posted by goose




www.nogw.com...

"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that . . . I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."





This hoax originated with an October 3, 2001 press release from the pro-HAMAS group, the Islamic Association for Palestine.
IAP's alleged source, a report on Israel radio, is apparently fictional.

Kol Yisrael denied to CAMERA (Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America) that it had ever broadcast any such report.

The Kol Yisrael reporter assigned to cover the Israeli Cabinet [where the Sharon statement was alleged to have been made] denied Sharon had made the attributed comment

CAMERA: Fabricated Sharon Quote



posted on Mar, 28 2006 @ 03:02 PM
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To IAF101:
it sounds like you have done extensive research to prove why this situation cant happen... (regarding foreign lobbys)

so it probably pisses you off also, when you find out that these are not registered as "foreign" lobbys, but domestic ones, that serve a foreign interest...

just one of the many ways that politicians and lobbiests have figured out to go around the rules...
Soft money - PACS

and funny enough... democrats are the major recievers of these donations
but republicans have ties also...
the links Reg showed, are very enlightening...

so does this make it any clearer how a "pro israel" policy makes its way thru politicians that recieve "pro israel" donations thru PACS, or even private donors

this in no way means that the donors live in Israel, work for Israel, or even are jewish...
it only means they have a "pro israel" stance...



posted on Mar, 28 2006 @ 07:31 PM
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The Great influence of Israel on US politics is obvious as day light, only a blind person cannot see that. The argument should not be about the existence of that influence BUT about the threat and the damage that it is doing on the USA.
US Politics are controlled by the Israeli(Zionist) lobby >>>> a trivial fact.

Now the only defense I see here from the Pro-Israel people is that there are other lobbies that have an influence on US >>>>> False Argument.

On a scale of 10 the influence of the Israeli lobby takes 9/10 , other lobbies cannot reach 2/10. If that is not correct then tell me:

- Why on earth the US initiated a Global war -For protecting Israel- which started in 1990 in the first Gulf war.

The Goal of that war is to eliminate the countries that could form a threat on Israel, The Black list for the war agenda contains:

1- Iraq: Red Alarm, major threat. If Iraq was left alone then it will make WMD soon. They delayed that when Israel destroyed the Nuclear Reactor of Iraq by air strikes back in 1982.

2- Syria: Yellow Alarm, threat. Syria is annoying because it is ideologically hard to persuade them to join Globalization. The Syrians are anti-Uncle_Sam_orders and on the map they are very close to Israel. It is true that they don't have advanced weapons but they have organized military.

3- Lebanon: Blue Alarm, Minor threat. Only the remaining Palestinian militias in Lebanon could make some threat on Israel. But If you deal with Syria they are gone.

4- Iran: Orange Alarm, High threat. They are Always anti-America and very solid against Israel. As Iraq if they are left alone they would develop WMD.

5- Egypt: Green Alarm, Potential Threat. Doesn't make a threat in the short run, but has the potential in the long run. Actually Egypt is not in the Black list yet because they are economically attached with the US and they are well controlled. Feed them and they will remain happy.

The US Global war for protecting Israel:

1- Since the first gulf war in 1990 and US is in war with Iraq. In 2003 USA finally invaded Iraq and In the Black list X mark was put beside Iraq name. The excuse to invade Iraq was for WMD, later on after the war Great shame appeared on the faces of US soldiers because they didn’t find any WMD


2- 2004-2006: USA tried to create an excuse to invade Syria or at least to Make a global economical Boycott against it. They fabricated evidences, they bought people (like Jumblatt) and they formed a UN Investigation, Just to try to prove that Syria was behind killing the former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri. And the case is still going on.

3- Iran next on the list and the war is in the horizon.

4- The Future: ??????????????????

How much blood should people pay for protecting Israel?
Why should the American people die for protecting Israel??!!
What is the fault of a regular American how lost his son or brother in the war against Iraq??
When will Israel be satisfied? Will they be satisfied after starting WWIII ?

I have one final word :

For god sake WAKE UP AMERICAN PEOPLE, DON'T LEAVE YOUR RIGHTS TO BE VIOLATED BY THE BUSH-ZIONISTS GANG.


[edit on 28-3-2006 by Deep_Blue]

[edit on 28-3-2006 by Deep_Blue]

[edit on 28-3-2006 by Deep_Blue]

[edit on 28-3-2006 by Deep_Blue]



posted on Mar, 28 2006 @ 11:01 PM
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IAF101 although your definition of a lobbyist is correct, you seem to think the Israeli lobby is a classical lobby group like say Boeing or some other company/group and they are not. They would not be nearly as effective if they were merely a registered lobbyist group as too many restrictions would apply to everything they do. However, the Israeli lobby can call on literally thousands of volunteers to advance their agendas for them, make private donations, etc. It is this pervasiveness that makes them very powerful. If they need people from aerospace, banking, insurance, law, etc. they can get them right now and reply, or initiate, the most effective action possible. Need an academic study debunked, they can call up academics to counter whatever they don't like, an engineering study--same thing. In short, they have resources available for practically everything you might possibly think up.

Now don't make the mistake of thinking they are anti-american, or purposefully do things that will hurt America because for the most part they are damn good citizens and try to keep America strong. They will however, place the best possible pro-Israeli slant on whatever they do. Their driving creedo is the continuing survival & prosperity of Israel and if really faced with a serious threat they would come out of the woodwork to counter that threat.

[edit on 28-3-2006 by Astronomer68]



posted on Mar, 29 2006 @ 01:03 AM
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Originally posted by Riwka
This hoax originated with an October 3, 2001 press release from the pro-HAMAS group, the Islamic Association for Palestine.
IAP's alleged source, a report on Israel radio, is apparently fictional.[...]


Riwka, I've pointed that out to goose on this very thread. More or less the exact same thing you posted. It is here.

Just to let you know, I agree that it's a hoax as well. As I am the one who started this thread, I will not allow any false information to be posted as fact if I can verify that it is indeed false. So don't worry.



posted on Mar, 29 2006 @ 02:28 AM
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Originally posted by Beachcoma


Riwka, I've pointed that out to goose on this very thread. More or less the exact same thing you posted. It is here.

Just to let you know, I agree that it's a hoax as well. As I am the one who started this thread, I will not allow any false information to be posted as fact if I can verify that it is indeed false. So don't worry.


I was not trying to post any false info I thought it was for real.



posted on Mar, 29 2006 @ 08:18 AM
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I know it's an honest mistake. I'm not trying to paint you in a bad light. I'm terribly sorry if it appeared that way.


Anyway, the next time you might wanna try to do a Google search for a supporting story. If there are none, it's unverified but it's fine -- it may or not be true, we just don't know yet. If there are plenty of supporting stories but they mostly seem to be on questionable sites with an obvious agenda, dig deeper. There may be truth there that has been twisted or you might find a link that has confirmed it to be untrue.

It's all good. We are all humans, we make mistakes. It's natural.


[edit on 29-3-2006 by Beachcoma]



posted on Mar, 29 2006 @ 10:58 AM
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Astro said it best...
while deep blue seems to take it a little far...

Deep blue:
I can see that you have read up on this and are convinced... granted...
but also realize, that any country that has as much connection to the USA is bound to have more play than others...

For balanced representation (devils advocate, really)
The house of Saud is also a very influential group with our president specifically... of course, a close relationship is required for our gas prices, and steady supply...

they are a corrupt and haneous boil on islams butt...
and they are a very noticable black spot on our relations with BOTH Israel and , islamic nations...
So why do we continue to support them? even considering that Saudi Arabia is the single greatest cause of extremist Islam, and the terrorists that it spawns... Afghanistan is just the place that they send the ones they can't control...(like OBL)

why so we continue to allow Saudi sponsored extremist mosques to be the most dominant form of islam in the USA? (where they really do teach "west is the great satan")

Lobbiests, and very powerful money bought influence... it isn't about zion as much as fundage...

We allowed our politicians to secertly over time, find unethical/legal ways to get rich while in office... this is just the fallout...

Wow, getting paid to just allow someone to call them on a personal phone number, an give them 5 minutes... didn't seem so harmful at first...

but now, as we find ourselves fighting wars for other countries interests, it has become the main injurous threat to the respect and strength of America...

BTW: the first gulf war wasn't for Israel (remember, they didn't help, and got attacked)

it was for Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, who gave us tons of money to fight for them... and we had to negotiate with Israel on behalf of Saudi Arabia to keep Israel out of the fight, since that would have cuased lots more conflict.

it was a very precarious Balance that we attained, and hey, all we had to do was give a few thousand of our best and brightest to the grave, in order to keep our very good freindship with SA...
the very good freindship that wont allow Christians to worship on SA soil...



posted on Mar, 29 2006 @ 11:30 AM
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Why do I get the feeling that IAF read the paper and decided to not comment on it? Him and the other Israelies here won't touch it because it can't be denied. Israel has absolute control over American policy in the mideast.



posted on Mar, 29 2006 @ 12:14 PM
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Kadima wins Israeli elections, while Likud crashes


The hardliner Zionist Netanyahu and the Likud party lost the Israeli elections:
Senior Likud figures: Netanyahu needs to go, the nation can't stand him -Ha'aretz


Prime Minister Ehud Olmert

The new Kadima Party and Olmert are now in charge:
Olmert to Bush: I will perpetuate Sharon's legacy -Ha'aretz
Bush congratulates Olmert, invites him to the White House -Ha'aretz
Israel's Election: Voting the Social Agenda -Time

Liberalism, conservatism, zionism, socialism, etc are only tools and the elite
will use them all to further their agenda, placate the masses, and increase their power.


So it looks like centrist socialism is taking stage this round,
indicating a Democrat for US President in 2008.

[edit on 29-3-2006 by Regenmacher]



posted on Mar, 29 2006 @ 07:52 PM
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Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
Astro said it best...
while deep blue seems to take it a little far...


Actually no.
Astro said half of the truth.
I said the full truth .. hard ... and plain.. and in the faces of the Pro Israelis.
I will never hesitate to show the guilty of the Israel lobby, many people are afraid to do that .. and I am not.


Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
The house of Saud is also a very influential group with our president specifically... of course, a close relationship is required for our gas prices, and steady supply...


False argument. Don’t compare the lazy Saudis with the most powerful lobby in the world which is the (Israel=Zionist) lobby.
The Israeli lobby is not only powerful in US , but also has powerful branches in Europe. The power of that lobby comes from the Jewish in those countries. Take France for example , any writer who criticize Israel will be called anti-Semitic in France and could be jailed for that.

I agree with you about the special relationship between the Corrupt Saudi house and USA. But let me tell you the Saudi house are only puppets, they are only oil suppliers to USA and If they stopped supplying oil they will be invaded immediately (Saudi Arabia is very weak they have only 10'000 men in the army). While Israel doesn’t care to obey USA orders because they are actually involved in taking those orders.


Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
BTW: the first gulf war wasn't for Israel (remember, they didn't help, and got attacked)

it was for Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, who gave us tons of money to fight for them... and we had to negotiate with Israel on behalf of Saudi Arabia to keep Israel out of the fight, since that would have cuased lots more conflict.


BTW , USA triggered the conflict in the first Gulf war… remember USA gave the green light to Saddam to invade Kuwait after that they showed their real intentions. The real intentions were to completely destroy Iraq so that the Iraqis never stand on their feet again (to remove any possible threat on Israel completely). Saddam was an Idiot he was simply fooled, remember Saddam was an Ally with USA in the war against Iran. He was simply following orders, after he invaded Kuwait under USA permission, His job was done and the fool was cleaned out.

And Yes the whole thing from the war between Iraq and Iran in the 80's to the gulf war in the 90's to invading Iraq in 2003 , all of these were planned carefully by the CIA for the ultimate goal of protecting Israel.

ATS members talk so much about conspiracies in religions, UFO's and other things... do you want to see the real conspiracies look in politics, the real conspiracies are there.

BTW, the information that I provided are not from my own speculations, most of these information are from the many books that I read over the years.


[edit on 29-3-2006 by Deep_Blue]

[edit on 29-3-2006 by Deep_Blue]

[edit on 29-3-2006 by Deep_Blue]



posted on Mar, 29 2006 @ 08:29 PM
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Originally posted by Deep_Blue
But let me tell you the Saudi house are only puppets, they are only oil suppliers to USA and If they stopped supplying oil they will be invaded immediately (Saudi Arabia is very weak they have only 10'000 men in the army).

BTW, the information that I provided are not from my own speculations, most of these information are from the many books that I read over the years.

I suggest you not use comic books as a source of data. The Saudis have some of the best trained fighter pilots in the world and an army well above 10,000 units.

Active Duty Uniformed Troop Strength
Saudi Arabia 200,000


Royal Saudi Land Forces
The army's strength of approximately 73,000 in 1992 was greater than the other three services combined, and somewhat in excess of the national guard's active complement. The principal combat units were eight brigades: two armored, five mechanized, and one airborne. There were five artillery battalions. A separate Royal Guard Regiment consisted of three light infantry battalions.


Saudi Arabian National Guard
The SANG is not a reserve component similar to the national guard of the United States; at least part of it was an active-duty armed force existing parallel to, but separate from, the regular military service branches. The strength of the guard in 1992 was estimated at 75,000, but 20,000 of that total served in a militia status, on call for mobilization rather than on daily active duty.


Royal Saudi Air Force
As of 1992, the first line combat air strength of the Royal Saudi Air Force (RSAF) consisted of some 200 aircraft, organized into six fighter/ground-attack squadrons and five fighter-air defense squadrons. The personnel strength of the air force was estimated to be about 18,000.


Royal Saudi Naval Forces
Naval personnel strength, which was less than 1,000 in 1974, had reached 9,500 by 1991, including 1,500 marines. The marines were organized as an infantry regiment and were equipped with 140 armored vehicles of Spanish manufacture.


Royal Saudi Air Defense Forces
The air defense forces, with an estimated 4,000 personnel in 1992, had as their primary responsibility the operation of thirty-three SAM batteries. Of these, sixteen batteries were equipped with 128 I-Hawk SAMs with a forty-kilometer range, which were emplaced around Riyadh, Ras Tanura, Dhahran, Jiddah, and key air bases at Khamis Mushayt, Hafar al Batin, and Tabuk, as well as the approaches to strategic oil facilities of the Eastern Province.


Planning for the future
Helped by American agreement to reschedule payments and delay deliveries on $10 billion in arms purchases, plans were announced in summer 1996 to expand the armed forces by the year 2000. Defence Minister Prince Sultan indicated that the current five-year plan will include further arms acquisitions, but that the priority will be to attract recruits to attain the goal of 200,000 in manpower. The larger goal is to transform the traditional brigade-based command structure into divisions, with land forces comprising seven or eight divisions. Crown Prince Abdullah, National Guard Commander and caretaker of the state while King Fahd recovered from a stroke at the beginning of the year, declared his goal of building up National Guard forces from 80,000 to 100,000 in the same period with at least three heavy mechanised and armoured brigades.

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.

Saudia Arabia working on secret nuclear program with Pakistan help -Forbes

The Israeli and Arab Lobbies Jewish Virtual Library

Oil is power, everyone has a price and death is just a matter of how much.

[edit on 29-3-2006 by Regenmacher]



posted on Mar, 30 2006 @ 02:15 AM
link   
Excellent link Regenmacher, the paper presents a really good breakdown of the Pro-Israeli & Pro-Arab lobbies. I expected it to be very biased because of the source, but it was not. For anyone interested, I'm talking about the link: The Israeli and Arab Lobbies, which Regenmacher provided in his last post.



posted on Mar, 30 2006 @ 02:26 AM
link   

Originally posted by Regenmacher

Originally posted by Deep_Blue
But let me tell you the Saudi house are only puppets, they are only oil suppliers to USA and If they stopped supplying oil they will be invaded immediately (Saudi Arabia is very weak they have only 10'000 men in the army).

BTW, the information that I provided are not from my own speculations, most of these information are from the many books that I read over the years.

I suggest you not use comic books as a source of data. The Saudis have some of the best trained fighter pilots in the world and an army well above 10,000 units.




When I first saw your long post (with the many resources and quotes that you provided) I though that you came with something big.

I was disappointed that you dismissed my whole two long posts, and only focused on the 10'000 figure. I think you missed my main ideas my friend and you only saw the 10'000 figure !

Ok I was wrong about the 10'000 , why you provided all of those sources? Only one was required because I can be easily convinced. and to support you I will provide one more source:



THe SAUDI ARABIA Files

Military Power

Military branches:
Army, 70,000
Navy, 13,500
Air Force, 18,000
Coast Guard 4,500
National Guard, 57,000
Tribal levies, 20,000
Frontier Force, 10,500

MSNBC News


I said 10'000 Army but it is 70'000. You have to understand that the 10'000 figure I provided is very old information (from my childhood) maybe the figure was correct back then. Also I don't have perfect memory.

Now Saudi Arabia is much different story that Israel !. Do you think that USA puts Israel and Saudi Arabia in the same rank?!! If you think so then you are infinitely wrong. Potentially Saudi Arabia can form a threat on Israel, That's why I always considered the possibility that USA may invade Saudi Arabia one day.

Saudi Arabia is Off-Topic and we can make a separate thread about it. So can we please focus on the Topic and to remind you the topic is:
"Harvard Study Finds Pro-Israel Lobby Influences U.S. Foreign Policy"


[edit on 30-3-2006 by Deep_Blue]

[edit on 30-3-2006 by Deep_Blue]



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