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I want to believe?!

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posted on Mar, 20 2006 @ 05:02 AM
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Hi all,

I’ve read numerous books, looked at literally hundreds of pics and seen many dozens of video’s, all relating to the UFO phenomenon. But, I still find stumbling blocks when attempting to make a personal judgement.

I usually come to ATS for info when I need a question answering, but one problem I have is that when someone poses a genuine question here, we see the same thing happen over and over with replies like these…”you should believe in alien life because I’ve seen a UFO”. “You have to believe it because such and such a person who worked in the military said they saw one/worked on one”, “it must be true because some famous scientist/politician does”. Etc. etc. etc.

Now, I’m probably going to be shot down in flames by some for this post, but I’m going to stick to my guns and be completely open and honest. As Mulder’s poster said “I want to believe”. But, I can’t. I’m a natural sceptic and find those who are rabid believers in alien life because they have seen a UFO (NOT an alien) and those who believe the Bob Lazar’s of this world to be the ones who put me off. They preach, they proseletize, yet rarely present **objective** arguments. Telling me you’ve seen a UFO and that I should believe in aliens as a result is not my idea of objectivity. Yes, that’s a sweeping statement, but a lot of the time, it’s true for me. The claim that someone told me in a dream that they are here from the planet Zog is NOT proof, nor is it convincing!

I keep seeing post after post from people saying there’s proof, but where is it? The closest I came to tipping over the edge of the fence into the believer pasture was when I first saw the Phoenix lights video. Since that time, I’ve researched and listened and watched. Up to now, I have encountered more people who put me off the whole idea than those who sound convincing. The problem is, the ones who are the most far fetched are muddying the waters so much that those with something interesting and intelligent to say are ignored or marginalised.

Take the Disclosure Project (DP) for example. It all looks very nice, with a long list of people who are supposedly “in the know” and who have had very disturbing experiences. Yet, I look at the site and think “misinformation?”. Is it? Who can say. I know many here think very highly of DP compared to something like Serpo, but I’ve gotten to the point now where I see the word misinformation everywhere I look. I really cannot see the truth (if this indeed exists) because it hasn’t been revealed to me.

The problem with the whole UFO culture is that there are so many idiots proclaiming inside knowledge, often with no supporting evidence that the sensible theories are treated with the same derision by the general public and media. Too many times have I read books and articles where the author has asserted the truth about aliens, but refuses to reveal his/her primary source because they want to remain anonymous. I mean, come on! Do these people really expect to be taken seriously?? It’s just commercialism.

The provision of proof positive is the responsibility of the person making the claim. Yet, nobody has yet provided this. I cannot and will not even begin to try to understand what was shown in some of the NASA footage I’ve seen posted on many websites, or the Phoenix lights or Mexico film.

There are many, many strange things that have been filmed and photographed over the years and defy explanation. I wouldn’t dream of dismissing them all and I’m convinced the authorities feel the same way. So, this brings me full circle. When the Mexico UFO’s were filmed, when the thousands of people stood and watched the Phoenix lights, what exactly were the governments and military people thinking and doing about it? Considering their obvious paranoia (by default I guess), I’d have supposed the military would be clamouring for answers and spending a lot of time and effort to figure out what is going on. We don’t hear about it though, which begs the question: Why? If thousands saw and recorded something strange and inexplicable in the night sky, why was it not headline news around the world? That makes no sense to me. Looking at some of the banal nonsense the world’s media prints in headlines, I’d have thought something as monumental as a UFO sighting as strange as those over Phoenix would merit more in depth coverage. I know it was mentioned, but it wasn’t even close to number one on most news agencies lists for important news. Why?

Here’s another example. I have to laugh when writing this paragraph because I’m doing here exactly what I’m complaining about…read on! I actually spent an evening a few years ago with a guy who was in the RAF and was directly involved in the Rendlesham incident (allegedly!). He recounted his tale and told us that after the fact, he was told by his superiors that he was not to talk about what happened and that the radar records were to disappear. Now, this was an intelligent guy, with seemingly no axe to grind. With a bit of effort, it would probably be possible to confirm that he’d been in the RAF, but that’s about all. His claim sounded convincing and was very impressive. My main problems with his tale were twofold: 1. He had no proof. 2. I have worked in an industry (nuclear), where I had to sign the Official Secrets Act. Even today I am bound by this. So, how can someone involved in a supposed military cover-up of a UFO incident get away with telling anyone who’ll listen and even have their story published (which he did in at least one book that I have on my shelf)?! This makes absolutely no sense to me and only serves to illustrate my point. Why isn’t the military taking steps to prosecute all these ex-military personnel who have suddenly come out of the woodwork to publish and release information relating to issues which (by their accounts) are top secret? It’s crazy and literally beggars belief.

Am I to believe that the governments and military, who by their nature must be secretive and proactive with their security, are letting ex-members spill the beans on top secret projects and investigations? The counter argument to this is the old adage about the best place to hide something is in plain sight. Let those people proclaim their insider knowledge, but also spread lots of ridiculous claims alongside them that people will mock and there you have it. The perfect cover. Many people (like me?) will listen to the UFO claims with increasing scepticism because of the idiots, so that when someone worth listening to comes along, we all nod our heads and smirk.

Do I believe? I can’t answer that question properly. One part of me would like to because of some of the things I’ve seen that really defy explanation. However, the other part is telling me that I should just sit back and wait for proof positive.

GP




posted on Mar, 20 2006 @ 10:23 AM
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Originally posted by Grey_Pilgrim
Mulder’s poster said “I want to believe”. But, I can’t.


I'm right there with you. I'm convinced that most skeptics who say they'd really LIKE for aliens to exist don't really care that much. Whereas I *really* really want for it to be true. It is the only thing I want to see happen (proof) before I die. And yet I simply don't buy that aliens have visited or are visiting now. The stories are too much like stories about ghosts, and too little like stories about something real.

So, I run SETI@home, I keep looking up, and I wait.



posted on Mar, 20 2006 @ 01:38 PM
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If I can offer this, it might help your outlook a bit.

You cant *want* this to be true, and study it objectively. You have to put an handle on yourself and look at all of it, and not put any more stock in something said by a Navy Admiral then by anyone else. Everyone, is just people. People observe what they do, thru the same perceptions we all have. Now sure, the Admiral is going to have knowledge of a certain craft better then Jo-Bob down the street. So, take that under consideration...but dont take it as Gospel either.

You also have to broaden the search. What is "real". Are they "real". Often when I've told people that I'm involved in UFO research, thats the first question I get. My answer:
"That depends on what you mean by real". In my own study, and my own experiences, it seems to me that "they" have the ability to be "real" to us, to our perceptions, but they also...dont have to be.

In all the years of UFO research...and not ONE shred of tangible "proof". Yeah, I know "the govt has it all". Yeah well, I dont buy that either. This enigma has circumvented the govt by going directly to the people. But not one shred of proof?

So whats that say? That UFOs and aliens arent tangibly "real", until they want to be. They can just as easily be "real" one minute and not the next.

Maybe. Who knows.

Why is it at some sightings involving more then one person, those people all dont "see" the same thing? Perception?

As near as I can tell, the experience of a genuine UFO sighting or "experience", is as personal and tailored to the individual's perceptions as you can get. Why is it that craft of the 1950's doesnt look like craft today. Because we perceive it in today's context of little green men...not 1950's version.

Dont settle on one case, or one experience or one sighting. Look at the whole picture. Dont worry so much about the case, but the people who experienced it. How did it effect them personally.

The study of UFOs is not a study of UFOs. It's a study of reports, filed by *people*. We're studying people, and their perception of an outside enigma that...is on the edge of our perception.

So...does that help or does it completely confuse you.



posted on Mar, 20 2006 @ 01:49 PM
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"To enjoy or not to enjoy, that is the question!"
- Some People.


"The feeling of joy is strongly sought in the universe, for its energy is divine."
- Internet Info.



Astronomy Picture of the Day ...

antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov...

Astronomy Picture of the Day Archive ...

antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov...


Enjoy !



posted on Mar, 20 2006 @ 01:54 PM
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I too would love to believe...but I find the fire of belief to be dying.



posted on Mar, 20 2006 @ 03:08 PM
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Just imagine if you looked out your window right now and saw a gigantic UFO floating there. What would you do? Understand this, since you are a very vocal skeptic, you probably won't have a camera handy. You probably won't even think of a camera for a while. You probably won't believe your eyes when it first appears. You probably won't be the least bit scared. You will probably gasp a bit. You will stop what you are doing and stare at it. Later on, after you have composed yourself, you will report it to someone close to you. You will say, "I know I saw a UFO". You will search NUFORC to see if someone else saw what you saw. You will begin searching the net for UFO videos to see if they resemble what you saw. Believe me, it will probably get you nowhere.

Then you will end up here S.O.L., posting messages on ATS. With no confirmation, no truth, just a big question mark in the back of your mind. The incredible sight you've seen is with you aways in the back of your mind. You now know there is more to this world than meets the eye or what modern science can or will explain. But you still won't know anything for certain. You'll still be waiting and watching and thus far, the waiting seems like forever.

I'm sorry you've been left out thus far. Keep your eyes open and hopefully you will see something. It could happen in broad daylight so watch the skies as much as you can without looking like some kind of nut.



posted on Mar, 20 2006 @ 06:24 PM
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Hi there grey_pilgrim

I understand your frustration! Firstly I would like to tell you that I too have met one of the Rendelsham/Brentwaters army personell. I met him way months after I saw my UFO. I will talk a bit about that further along. Well anyway, I was coming out of my local library one day and I saw a flyer hung on the library wall. It was an ad for a local ufo meeting. I had never attended one before and have only attended a couple of them in 6 years. The flyer said -UFO meeting with guest speaker. The speaker went on to tell how he saw beings in the wood and that there were a couple of mind to mind communications. This guy said that the US army threw him out and took his passport away from him. The army said that he had medical problems which he said was untrue. Anyway this army guy went outside for a ciggie and I got talking to him. Since he had been in close proximity to one of these crafts I wanted to know if he had any adverse medical problems as a result. I was particularly interested if he had suffered stomach problems. He said yes all my adult life. This intruiged me because I too have had stomach problems and I sometimes suspect that they are due to (wait for it)......my own UFO experiences. I think my emotional state was showing a bit because he said to me 'you have had an experience, I can see it in your eyes.' Indeed I have had more than just an experience. Anyways...One thing that attracted me to the meeting was the fact that I had previously spoken with the organiser. this happened after I saw my UFO. Here we go...

I used to live on a street but garage my car some 1000 or more meters away. I put my car in the garage then started to walk out the alley when I saw TWO AMBER LIGHTS just perched motionless in the sky. It was just after nine pm. The lights were motionless! No sound or movement at that time. I stopped in my tracks to observe an I had the perculiar feeling that as I stood watching it - it was watching me. Maybe it wasnt? But thats how I felt. In an act of futility I waved my arm in the air. The object came closer but still remained at least 500 feet away. Imagine 2 orange lights, one at 3 oclock and one at 9 oclock moving towards you with no noise. Then move toward the right down the street without turning. thats what happened!

The next day I rang my local news paper to ask if there were any reportings. He said no but he would listen out. 3 nights later there was a clip in the mail about a guy who saw a UFO that same night. There were a couple of discrepencies but that was all. This guy was at the meeting. I spoke to hime and mentioned that I rang his number months earlier following his report in the mail. He said 'oh yes, great balls of fire-wait there'
He brought back a UFO magazine from summer 1999 and the story was in it. The UFO was reported by 56 people and my sighting fitted in the time window.

Now I suppose this is where it gets annoying...

What people recognize as truth sometimes isnt! Or is but isnt recognized!!

I come under the category of 'contaminated' because even before I saw a UFO, I had many dreamlike visions of craft and read all I could about them. The reading aparently makes my testimony questionable. As do other things I have done in the past with mind experiments if you get me. Anyway these experiments happened years earlier! And did not involve the 56 witnesses!!!

But think about it..........If these events are clandestine then what better people be involved in it then the erm.....questionable? If you know what I mean. Who is going to take them seriously?

From my experience actually researching this material stirrs things up!

At the time I saw the UFO I was using a book called the 'I Ching' other wise known as the 'Book of Changes'

It is a divinatory text. I used it to question about the UFO. The answer I got back to the question : What was that I saw? was:

The Ancestors, The Earlier Kings who use The Firebird to descend upon the Cities!

Does this little story tell you anything about me?

My searches are deep and I am prepared to cross barriers!

When I used the I Ching, I used it with doubt about its permissions within my religious beliefs! Them being western and the oracle being Eastern!

Its just my trait of personality, I want to conform but I want to understand and sometimes this conflicts and breaks barriers! Thus things seap through the psychic wall!!

Have doubt, but have an open mind also.

One book I read was called Secret Life. I read it after I saw the UFO but it had so many coincidences that the book practically blew my mind more than the UFO did! In fact the UfO sighting was rather mundane. Its the Visions that have the most impact!

One night while laid in bed I experienced going up in a bright light. This was strange because I appeared to go up twice where logic would dictate that I go up then down!

Anyway the next thing I am aware of is a noise akin to a loud engine outside my bedroom window. this noise roused me and as I awoke I heared it kind of shoot off! With that my watch alarm sounded and a fraction of a second later a house alarm across the street went off!!!

In that home I used to have very whack dreams like -you know that bunny from the duracell battery advert? Well giant toys and such coming down from the sky. Thats how messy it gets sometimes so you would be right to presume that its all bull if you have not experienced these sorts of things. But maybe you have because from what I have read some things are screen memories that block the real images out!

You are here after all.........maybe you have some experiences that have not surfaced yet?

Food for thought maybe?

Regards,

Infinitum08.



posted on Mar, 21 2006 @ 03:37 AM
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Hi all,

Many thanks for the replies, there’s a lot of food for thought here.

I think I do want to believe in alien life and the extraterrestrial origin of “some” UFO’s simply because I’m of the opinion that the universe is too big for us to be alone. As many have said, it’s incredibly arrogant of us humans to assume we are alone here. So, yes deep down I want to believe.

I don’t spend my time looking into the sky much because I feel that if I’m meant to have any kind of experience, it will happen whether I’m looking for it or not. But, would seeing a UFO convince me any further? I honestly don’t know. Maybe it would make me take more notice and interest. I’m sure it would force me to be less sceptical of those who have seen something. But, being a confirmed sceptic, I think the doubt would always be there. Was what I saw one of the 90%+ of those phenomena which are purely mundane in origin, or did I actually see something not of this world? I’d like the opportunity of being in this position just to enable me to be more empathic with those of you already there. You cannot possibly understand what someone feels about any event until or unless you have experienced something similar. Even then, your experience will be unique to you to some extent.

Jritzmann – I agree with you. Perception is a funny thing. Talk to any police officer who’s taken witness statements about something and they’ll tell you that a dozen people can see the same event, yet will all give a different account. Perception. Does that make the event any less real? No, but it makes it very difficult to sort the facts from the fiction (perceptual errors). And therein lies one of the problems.

Highhorse – You’re right, I don’t generally carry a camera around with me, but I have considered doing so on many occasions.
I’ve always thought that modern science is sadly lacking in some ways. There are so many things in this world that cannot be explained by scientific means, that I feel we do need to think outside the box sometimes.
If I had an experience as you described, I would be reluctant to tell anyone, even on ATS. I know that sounds odd, but I’d fear the ridicule. I’d have doubts about my own experience and would file it away under “interesting, but probably an aircraft”. That attitude is because the sharing of an experience like that would either be taken as bunkum by the sceptic or will be of some interest to the adherent for all of five minutes, then onto the next sighting. What difference would it make to anyone if I saw a UFO? Then again, it may turn out to be a life changing experience. I won’t know unless it happens :-)

One of my best friends is convinced he’s an abductee. I’ve read his story and cannot discount it simply because I know him to be a person of honesty and integrity. Yet, I remain sceptical, again because of the lack of proof and because his experience is something I cannot share or truly understand. That doesn’t mean I disbelieve him, it’s just that the potential for something like this goes beyond the bounds of my empirical knowledge of reality.

I guess I’ll keep looking and listening in the hope that one day, we’ll have a definitive answer to this amazing question. My scepticism will not diminish, nor will it increase to any great extent. I feel I’ve reached the status quo, where I’m sat right in the middle of the fence on this issue and need something fairly strong to tip me over one way or another.

Regards,
GP



posted on Mar, 21 2006 @ 04:43 AM
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Well yes...


I've seen some unexplainable things in my life -- a ball of fire, strange lights in the sky -- but alien life, ufo's as they are known and such are becoming weaker to believe in as I study further. Illusions, deception, lies are the current conclusion I've come up with for the evidence of extra terrestrial life. Until one proves otherwise. I was sitting on the fence for a long time,

- Nazgarn



posted on Mar, 21 2006 @ 04:58 AM
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Its true to say that posting experiences does seem to take from the credibility of the explanation.

I post because I just hope to find similarities in other peoples postings. It kinda helps to know that others experience the same. I find though that there are people around who post some really incredible things.

I mean they even start going into animal spirits within the ufo phenomenon, its like they know no boundaries. We all dream junk most of the time but Alien, Ufo visions are not any old dream. The difference is as wide as the gap between ordinary dreaming and astral travel. Unfortunately many people have done neither so explaining things can be a bit tricky.

I have even read posts claiming that the Aliens are within us on a molecular level. I cant say for certain that they are not, its just that hearing craft outside my window and knocks on the wall dont equte (with me) to molecular biology!

Makes very interesting reading though!

Although I have my own experiences I also find myself in the role of skeptic when it comes to reading some posts.

I dont trust the people who seem to have too many answers! Or none at all for that matter!!



posted on Mar, 21 2006 @ 10:12 AM
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My problems with the current posting issue are many. And... They are purely subjective. I should tell you that I am 50 years and way plus... I have been up and down the UFO gig for a large number of years. Many of us have seen things in the sky, often enough, incredible things, but the collective "we" has never provided any real evidence of what/who they may be. In other words, a UFO is a UFO is a UFO, but we are no closer to knowing their origin now than 40 some years ago when I first delved into the mysteries of Adamski.

Now, I'm one of those folks who sits on the fence all way around. We could, in fact, be the only intelligent life in the universe. It is not a matter of being arrogant on my part... I would like to meet someone from a different planet or galaxy. It would be absolutely fantastic, but it hasn't happened yet, in any real provable fashion.

People like Lazaar (spelling?) are too "iffy" in their presentation. People like Icke, provide no actual proof. They do a fine job of being like the Pied Piper, but again, no evidence. I can not accept that there are lion race, lizard race, what-have-you races represented on this planet, and we haven't seen any photos that are not hoaxes or drawings, or artist renderings only. No honest to God evidence that they exist. The issues that are supposedly part and parcel of their secret agendas, often enough have much simpler explanations and no evidence for the other. And ... Unless you wish to ascribe God qualities to them, they make mistakes from time to time and would, so I believe in my dark little heart of hearts, be found out. And, often enough, the simplest explanation is the real explanation.

Channeled information from galaxies that are literally a million light years away from God-like critters, doesn't even begin to wash. It is not a matter of a spiritual journey for me, it is a matter of ego involvement of the channeler, with no evidence, physical or experential, of said channeler that makes it all seem so hokey. Much like people who hand out information based on readings from their higher selves, and then can not deliver actual specific goods. They tend to be laughable, unless one is looking for temporary amusement, or is so gullible that it is a useless effort to have them see reality.

One other thing that puts me off is that the various factions in the world of UFOlogy tend to all backstab, backbite, lie, cheat, and steal from each other. Each appears to have its own agenda and wants to be a big dog in exclusion of everyone else. I assume it is better to be a big fish in an economically limited size of pond than a small fish in that same pond.

I think there will never be actual proof of such a thing until such a time as the saucers land, EBEs egress and shake hands with the people of this planet. Until that time, I believe that we are stuck with our own devices.

But, after having said all that, please believe that I would love nothing better than to find out that it's all true.



posted on Mar, 21 2006 @ 11:00 AM
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Sigung86

Yeah I must say that when it comes to evidence....

Its just a void. I dont know why it has to be such a secret.

It isnt just UFO's is it? Its things like inorganic beings and spirits too that boggle the mind. Telepathy, psychic ability etc etc...Its all a Mystery.

One that we cant be fully trusted with it appears.

I hope you get your proof.

My wife has seen things but she still doubts and admits how crazy it is to see and not believe!



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