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A History of Separation of Church and State

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posted on Apr, 13 2006 @ 08:47 AM
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I just re read your post and was astonished by what I saw after rereading.

That government may place no religious symbols on government property??

You mean public property dont you ????Public/government ..the public is the government here are they not????

YOu speak as if the government was a seperate soverign entity. They are a public funciton. Not seperate.

You do realize that as part of the public..or the people...many governments are telling the teachers in these public schools they cannot wear their crosses in schools...or even government offices.
Other symbols are allowed..even pagan symbols..but not thier crosses...Amazing.

Government is the people..not a seperate soverign entity... A seperate unaccountable soverign entity is called " Feudalism" "Royalty."

Whenever you start to go down the road as we are doing here in the United States...limiting the people..you are rapidly on your way back to feudalism and "divine right of kings."


There is another word for this type of Religion in politics...since it is obviously in favor of any religion but Christianity ...and that is paganism.

One of the key features of paganism is the use of logic and reason..of men verses what the Word says or is written in the hearts of the public.

The logic and reason of men is a religion called Gnosticism..where religion is reasoned out. This often results in the type of double standards we see government getting involved in so frequently.

Thanks,
Orangetom




posted on Apr, 13 2006 @ 11:08 AM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999
YOu speak as if the government was a seperate soverign entity.


No, I speak as if the government represented ALL of the people, not merely the conservative Christians, and as if it were bound by restrictions that protect the rights of minorities against the potential tyranny of the majority.

If a teacher wears a cross in class, it implicitly puts his/her authority as a teacher behind Christianity. It gives Christian students a privileged position in the class, as having something in common with the teacher, and puts non-Christian students in second-place status. (The teacher is, of course, completely within his/her rights to wear a cross or any other religious symbol when off duty; that's the other half of the First Amendment.) That is even more the case when the government puts religious symbols on public property.

We are not all Christians, and we are not a Christian nation. And it is an offense, and potentially a danger, to non-Christians if our government acts as if it were a Christian government.

Granted, the display or the wearing of symbols is a small thing and not a great danger. But small things can lead to big ones, if we allow them to.



posted on Apr, 13 2006 @ 12:38 PM
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Im going to try this again ...

the restriction is on government not the people...as practiced and as is obvious by your post.

You post quite obviously that a no religion is preferable to the " free exercise" of the publics religion. On public property. This is not what is presented in the first amendment. Somehow ..somewhere we have gone from the free exercise thereof..to the free exercise there of.......but.........
This is not what is stipulated in this amendment.

I am well aware that not all out here are christians ..but once again ..it is the free exercise of religion..and a restriction on government not the public.

"nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof" Nothing is stipulated in this amendment as to where or when..just that the government shall stay out of it. Once again the limit is on Government not the public. Nor does this amendment say..."because not all people are Christians."

Where and when did the government "hijack" this amendment with a new and very different rule.?? And why did they not declare that they were "Hijacking" the constitution with a new and different "rule?"

I submit to you Two Steps Foreward that when you use this technique of all these rules and exclusions...you very soon ..bit by bit go down a road never intended..but it starts out small..but soon snowballs. Small things can lead to big ones and to places never intended to travel.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Apr, 13 2006 @ 03:56 PM
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Originally posted by orangetom1999
You post quite obviously that a no religion is preferable to the " free exercise" of the publics religion. On public property.


Exactly. The First Amendment has several clauses, two of which apply to religion. On the one hand, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion." On the other hand, "Congress shall make no law . . . prohibiting the free exercise thereof." These two go hand in hand.

The establishment clause restrains not only Congress itself, but, because all federal agencies are funded and empowered by acts of Congress, also those agencies. And, because the Fourteenth Amendment extends the same Constitutional restraints as have always applied to the federal government, to state and local governments as well, since its passage this also applies to non-federal government agencies.

A government employee acting in his or her official capacity (including a public school teacher) is the state, and so is bound by the establishment clause of the First Amendment to take no action respecting an establishment of religion.

Anyone acting in a private capacity is protected by the free exercise clause, and may not be restrained from the free exercise of religion by the state.

What I believe you are doing here, Tom, is treating the actions of government employees in their official capacities -- which are restrained by the establishment clause -- as if they were private actions, protected by the free exercise clause. They are not! A public school teacher who displays a religious symbol in class is not a private citizen freely exercising religion. He or she is the state, taking action that respects an establishment of religion.

The same person, outside of class, is protected by the free exercise clause and can practice any beliefs held. But not when acting in his or her official capacity.

Now, it could of course be argued that wearing a cross or pentagram or whatever is innocuous and unintrusive, and so it is. But if we allow that, what about allowing display of religious literature on the walls in the classroom? What about curriculum taken from that literature? And, by the way, this is NOT an absurd notion. When I was in high school in the early 1970s, I had a world history teacher who, on dealing with the ancient history of the middle east, took her lectures straight from the Bible.

You have to draw the line somewhere.

You mentioned earlier something about teaching the tenets of Islam in school. As long as that is done in a social studies or comparative religion or history of religion setting, so that the teacher is saying, not "This is what God teaches through His Prophet," but rather "this is what Muslims believe, as taught by Mohammed," then I see nothing wrong with it.

And yes, that would also apply to a teacher saying, "this is what Christians believe, as taught by the Apostles." But not to "this is God's word, as written in the Bible."



posted on Apr, 14 2006 @ 11:21 AM
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lets try this again...

The restriction is on government...not ...but....

Employees in government service are also the public. What you wind up with by eventuality is all people under governnent jurisdiction by default.
They by and large you are away from" The free exercise thereof." Also away from the "Government shall make no law reaspecting a establishment of religion." They are doing exactly that in limiting the public...in any capacity...anywhere.

Government is attempting to default this through by judicial decree..and eventually by rules and exclusions ..go completely away from the first amendment intents..and purposes..substituting instead the Government decree...by whoever or what ever the Government actually is.

They will by this process go completely away from the first amendment...they cannot help it..it is what intelligent men do. This is historically true..over and over. This is Gnosis. Wise men..Wizards.

It either applies to everyone ..or no one..the events dictate that it will apply to no one but government. When you have exclusionary rules and such it quickly becomes Talmudic...rules to get around the rules...

The history of wise men indicated that it will apply to mostly government an selective groups who are in favor this year...or next..but not ever equally. This is what is happening across the board in this country.
The religion being established is Government.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Jun, 10 2006 @ 10:58 PM
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Since it is obviously in favor of any religion but Christianity ...and that is paganism.



Please define "Christianity". To what Sect, Denomination or Church are you referring (or yes that is right, more than one, did you forget?)?

Since when is Judaism Pagan? Did you forget that there is more than one Religion in Existence (i.e. Christianity is not the only religion in Existence).



What the Word says.


To what version of the Bible are you referring - Oh yeah thats right - there is more than one. Did you forget?



The Logic and Reason of men is a RELIGION called Gnosticism..where religion is reasoned out.


You just Contradicted yourself OrangeTom99. Gnosticism is a RELIGION - with its own various Theologies.



posted on Jun, 12 2006 @ 02:20 PM
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I have not checked this post in some time now and happened to stumble across it today. THanks for your post.

As to what sect of Christianity I refer ..I refer to any sect which tries to live by the Word in thier daily lives...to not mix leven with unleven...as the courts and public schools try to force upon us privily.

As to Judiasm I will tell you that Judiasm is actually a younger religion that Christianity coming from the time of the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD by the Roman General Titus. After this time the Olde Testament instructions could no longer be carried out. The Pharisees came to their prominance after 70AD and the religion took its form we often see today. This is the Religion we know today as Judiasm...it is not Olde Testament per se as the instructions of the Olde Testament cannot be carried out in the manner instructed. I refer here to the Law or the Law of Moses...which is what the Olde Testament actually is from the time of the coming out of Egypt.
There are other facets to Judiasm such as the fact that even before 70AD the Hebrews were doing the very instructions told to them not to do...not to do as the nations surrounding them did. They were doing this privily just as the courts and government finance in our schools are doing today....in small sections and pieces..to move the line away from what it was in our fathers and grandfathers times. They are moving the line in right and wrong just as was done by the Hebrews and the Hebrew leadership in Olde Testament times....and also saying ...no one sees what we do!! This is obvious to those who can See.
In short the Jews were slowly going over to paganism..just as is being done to the Christians today. There are Christians who are well aware of this today.

THe religion of Government here in the United States is actually paganism..a peculear brand or variety of paganism called Gnosticism..the religion of wise men the religion of wizards....sophists. It is obviously in competition with Christianity and will allow any religion in public schools but Christianity. This is also obvious to those who can see beyond the window dressing presented to the public as news and information.

As to versions of the Bible I use only the AV 1611. I am aware of what passes for Bibles in many variations and I am also aware of the differences in many of the variations.

And yes I am also aware that Gnosticism is a religion...by my postings above.
I will tell you Seraphim Serpente..I don't travel to the East ..up seven steps..but I can see its fingerprint in much of what passes for history today and even in ancient times. I know what it means. I also know that much of our true history is missing from our public history books...and for good reason.
I can see this Gnosticism at work in the news media...in the body politic and also in public education. It is also at work in many Chrisitian Churchs and most in the congregations do not know of its existance within thier Churchs. There are wolves among them in sheeps clothing.

I have read "Morals and Dogma." by Albert Pike. It doesnt take much savy to understand what they are talking about in this Gnostic Opus. I know to what they often refer when speaking about the Talmud and the arcanum and certain knowleges being in the hands of the initiates alone...not in the hands of the profane.


Thanks for your post,
Orangetom



posted on Jun, 13 2006 @ 01:37 AM
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As to Judaism I will tell you that Judaism is actually a younger religion that Christianity...
There are other facets to Judaism such as the fact that even before 70AD the Hebrews were doing the very instructions told to them not to do...not to do as the nations surrounding them did... I refer here to the Law or the Law of Moses...which is what the Olde Testament actually is from the time of the coming out of Egypt.


You make me Laugh OrangeTom99! Very amusing! Judaism is younger than Christianity - Huh? So what are you saying - that the "Christianity" that preceded so-called "Modern Judaism" is in fact PAGAN? Or maybe the opposite way around - that the Hebrews that preceded Christians tended to fall into practicing forbidden Pagan ways (perhaps you have solved the riddle of were Christianity came from)? I find it so amusing that "Christians" would be as bold as to take an entire other Religion as their root - then turn around & refute that religion & its founders - saying that THEY are the only "True" practitioners of that Religion.

Let me correct your Ignorance OrangeTom99 - the "Ye Olde Testament" that you are referring to is an English TRANSLATION - of HEBREW documents known as TORAH (="Instruction"). Only the first five books of the "Old Testament"/"Torah" contain this "Mosaic Law" of which you speak. This is very specifically known as the "Pentateuch". Apparently English Christians know how to interpret Hebrew Scripture better that the Hebrews themselves - amusing!




They (Gnostics) are wolves among them in sheeps clothing.


Only in so much as that you find the TRUTH - the Knowledge of Self & Universe so Threatening as to call it: "Wolf in sheeps clothing". At least you got the part were you call yourself a Sheep correct!



posted on Jun, 13 2006 @ 06:44 AM
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First off the Olde Testament to which I refer is also called the Torah...the other word for it is the Law of Moses. The entire Olde Testament is called the Tanakh. The people of this time and these records are refered to as Hebrews.

No matter how you want to deal out the cards...the practice cannot be done in the manner outlined in the Law of Moses..or the five books called the Torah...or Pentatuch. Nor is it done in that manner today by the Jews. Particularly since the disaporia of 70 AD. THe events of 70 AD changed the way the Hebrews carried out their religion. Meaning they are not the religious practice of before 70 AD and the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. Meaning it is a different and newer religion. This is the time when the Synagogue came into usage...because of the destruction of the temple and the priesthood and the sacrafices. Modern Judiasm is not the religion of the Law of Moses. It is something quite different.

We know these facts becasue of the Jews which lived in Ethiopia...Shephardic Jews.
The nation today called Israel made a attempt to import them from war torn Ethiopia and into Israel. These Shephardic Jews...did not know the holidays and festivals of todays Jews. Post 70 AD. They had been stuck in a time warp closer to the practices of the time of David and Solomon. This is not widely advertised or taught to outsiders so that they do not catch on.

As to Christians taking on another religion as thier root....Wow!!! This is a great placebo. Christians use the Olde Testament as their School Master. To show the Christians what was and that it is the same God in the Olde Testament as in the New Testament. It also teachs Christians that there was a change foretold in the Olde Testament and why it was changed.

As to the Knowlege of the Self&Universe....this is a concept known to Christians as the Traditions of men...once again ..a placebo. Works well on those not aware of the concept or not under meat ..but still milk.
Christians are to be under the Knowlege and instruction from God..not the Knowlege of the Self& Universe. For there are those of us who know the name of the Great Architect of the Universe...by name.

This type of substitution of Gods instructions is not a new phenomonon. It is very ancient. We have the records of what was happening in the nations surrounding the ancient nation of Israel. The traditions of these nations and the gods and practices of thier worship. We also have the record of the Hebrews themselves getting caught up willingly into this type of abomination ..contrary to their instructions from God.

This substitution is still going on today ..among the Christians. Many Christians today are so ignorant they havent a clue where many of thier traditions and holidays they observe originate. They just think all this is normal and it is what Christians have been doing for two milleniums...it is no such thing. They too have taken on ..like the Hebrews ...the traditions of men.

As to the Bible I am using ..the AV 1611..I know something very peculear about it...when quoting from it to a Hebrew...they know and understand exactly of what I speak. All the books of the Olde Testament are there in the AV 1611. They have a different order than found in the Hebrew Olde Testament but the books are all there. When I quote from a new translation ...from the Wescott and Hort versions ...they have to think about it a while...because they do not read like the translations from the Masoretic Texts. This is a very intresting and telling observation.


Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Jun, 13 2006 @ 03:51 PM
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it is the same God in the Olde Testament as in the New Testament.


This statement is debatable.



As to the Knowledge of the Self & Universe....this is a concept known to Christians as the Traditions of men...once again ..a placebo. Works well on those not aware of the concept or not under meat ..but still milk.


What a bunch of non-sense Babble! Sounds like the promotion of Ignorance! The entire recorded history of the "Christian Church" is nothing BUT the "Traditions of Men"! Just another way to control the flocks of sheep - peasants & Feudalism - just as you have stated. Eventually Free-Willed & Free-Thinking Scientists came along - offering people a new perspective & understanding of the World & Nature. What was the Church's response - well persecution of-course! Try reading a book other than your Bible for a change OrangeTom99!

[edit on 13-6-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 13-6-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 13-6-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 10:49 AM
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I am not sure I understand the premise of your last post. Are you saying or implying that Science is the true religion or the ability of science to explain the true nature of the World&Nature ...meaning the World&Nature are the true religion. Can you clarify this for me??

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Jun, 16 2006 @ 06:30 PM
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What I am getting at is the following - the stories that are contained in the Old Testament are just that - STORIES. They were written by man & attempt to teach us in living a Moral Life. They do not however answer specific questions that we have about the Universe. Back in the Dark Ages of Europe if anyone dared to try to answer these questions in a way that was not "Biblically Correct" then the (Highly Politicized) Catholic Church would instantly label them "Heretics" and threaten them with Ex-Communication and perhaps even Death. The Galileo story (Astronomy) is a Perfect example. Also many of the "Natural Healers" of the time (was Jesus himself not a Healer) were called "Witches" & KILLED!!! Free Thought was considered a crime by these Hierarchical Powers. They were in the business of controlling people. As a matter of fact - if you were interested in learning to Read & Write in those days you had No Choice but to become a Priest! All I am saying is "Thank God" for the
Age of Reason & the Age of Enlightenment in which this Reality has changed! If it were not for Science then we would not have the Technology that we have today which enables us to do all of this advanced stuff! We would not be communicating with each other via exchange of Electrons over the Ether (i.e. the Internet) if it were not for Science. Not that Science has all the answers - I am a Spiritual person myself & I believe that Spirituality has an Important place in life. The Problem however comes in the form of Fundamentalist Organized Religion - it desires to force its Dogmas on *EVERYONE* (Hence Separation of Church & State is a good idea if you want to avoid what happened in Dark Age Europe) - Free Thinking is frowned upon & if you questioned or deviated from the Church's Position on any particular topic you are shunned by the rest of the Community (Imagine if that was an ENTIRE COUNTRY)! I prefer Freedom & Liberty (especially in the matters of Religion & Spirituality) - I consider the latter a form of Tyranny - that it is why the founders of our country (USA) left England - they were getting fed up with the "Kings & Popes" telling the what to do & believe!




it is the same God in the Olde Testament as in the New Testament.


Would you care to debate this issue as well?

[edit on 16-6-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]



posted on Jun, 17 2006 @ 01:49 AM
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yes I would care to debate the point about it is the same God in the Olde Testament as in the New Testament.

However..I still have a problem with this statement of yours:

"Eventually Free-Willed & Free-Thinking Scientists came along - offering people a new perspective & understanding of the World & Nature."

I am still not sure if you are saying or getting at that science is our true religion or the World and Nature are the true religion. I dont think you quite gave me a answer to this question.

I too believe in Seperation of Church and State. I think the founders were well aware of the nature of men and the natural mischief that men would tend to get into even when "Enlightened " as were the Englishmen and Continentals from whom they wanted Liberty. These founders certainly knew more history than most of us today. So they had a long pedigree of human behavior to use as a yardstick in guiding the direction they wanted to take this newly formed country. Also a yardstick as to where they did not want to go. Their very heated debates,of which records survive, give witness to their knowlege of history and thier passions about where they did and did not want to go.

I am very cautious when people tend to use the term "Enlightened" This is often used to refer to what was happening at some period in Europe in a "enlightened" breakaway from Rome and its Church. I dont necessarily think that the leaders in Europe were all that "Enlightened" when considering the history of Europe after this "enlightened period came along. It was quite bloody...even in the secular nations as they used much of this enlightenment in a quest for power. France as well as England became quite bloody in the "Age of Reason." Their historys are replete with blood spilled. THe Prussians attempting to make a empire under Fredrick the Great... a very bloody period of history in this area. Napolean and His Empire attempts were to go on to kill much of the manhood of France. Again in WW1 the flower of French youth was spent in the trenchs of the Western Front to the point that the French Army went on strike and refused to fight ...they would defend France but would not go over the top in these mad offensive dashes against the Germans. All this in "Enlightment and science......no thanks.

I just dont see the history of men even under the Age of Reason or Science as being all that "Enlightened" It became a continuation of the same old patterns ..just science helping the destruction along...much more effeciently. New players came on the scene and used or misused science for thier goals of power. Just as in the olde days when kings went against other royalty...for power.....here we can have non royalty doing it faster and more effeciently than kings ever thought of doing it..for power.

As for science as a religion...I am often given to wonder... In nations like North Korea..they undoubtedly have power...and scientists. So why does not the knowlege/wisdom seem to make a difference ..a enlightened difference in the standard of living of the ordinary Peon??
HOw about in Russia under the communists ...they had science and some of the best minds in the world. Why did science not come to the aid of the ordinary peon. The peons in these nations lived at a basic substance level for many many years. Nothing changed in Russia...until the 1990s. Science or no Science.

Something to think about when promoting science as the solution to all mans problems.
I think their is more to it than just science or logic and reason.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Jun, 17 2006 @ 11:45 AM
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"Eventually Free-Willed & Free-Thinking Scientists came along - offering people a new perspective & understanding of the World & Nature."

I am still not sure if you are saying or getting at that science is our true religion or the World and Nature are the true religion. I don't think you quite gave me a answer to this question.


None of the Above! I am saying *NEITHER* of those things! *BOTH Science & Religions are MAN MADE* Constructs while Nature is a part of the Universal. Nature - like our Human Nature - is Dualistic & Multi-faceted. The "World" or "Reality" is Impermanent or in a Constant State of Flux since we as a Species are in a constantly varying State of Mind. Our "World View" or "Reality" is dependant on our Perception of the World.



Something to think about when promoting science as the solution to all mans problems. I think their is more to it than just science or logic and reason.


That is not what I am saying at all! You are either not fully reading my posts or twisting my meaning. Did you miss this part of my post or something?:



Not that Science has all the answers - I am a Spiritual person myself & I believe that Spirituality has an Important place in life.


What I am saying is that Religion & Spirituality & Science & Reason & Logic & Government all have their correct place! Some of these concepts just go better together than others - but ALL are necessary components of Society!

[edit on 17-6-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]



posted on Jun, 17 2006 @ 01:05 PM
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I did read all of your post/posts. I am not sure I agree with your premise about science. I agree they are all needed...I just dont think science is all that many will advertise it to be..or promote it...as such.

I see science as clothing us better than was in older times..feeding us better...we drive better cars..et al etc. etc. etc. I do not believe that science has made us as a whole better people. Much of what I see is people tending to define themselves by what they consume...and what they know about consumption/consumerism. ...not necessarily anything else outside of their occupational skills. To me this is empty...just a shell..outward appearence. Hollow.

Dont get me wrong..I am not against science. Much of what I do in my occupation is dependent on science. I just dont think science per se ..makes us better people as some are wont to impress upon me.
Hope this makes some sense to you ...

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Jun, 18 2006 @ 01:10 PM
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it is the same God in the Olde Testament as in the New Testament.


OK then Orangetom1999 - lets then move on to the other Issue (above) - shall we?

Let me start be saying that the God of CHRIST-ians is what Jesus called his "Heavenly Father" or "Abba" in the Gospels. He is known as the "Living Father" or "Living God". If you want to figure the Trinity into the Equation - then the Triune (yet Ultimately Singular) Christian Godhead = Heavenly Father, Son (i.e. Jesus) & Holy Spirit.

Now here comes my question - how do you resolve the Character of the Christian God/Heavenly Father (= Love, Compassion, Light & Life as witnessed through Jesus Christ) with the Character of the "Old Testament" God - which is one of: Wrath, Vengeance, Jealousy & Egotistical Megalomania?



posted on Jun, 18 2006 @ 03:29 PM
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About five years ago I would have found that question difficult but I am gathering by your boldness in asking that you have not found many who can answer the question.

The answer is Soverignty. A Soverign God.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Jun, 18 2006 @ 09:06 PM
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What I believe this shows is what little we actually know about "Early Christianity", the formation of the "Church"/"ChurcheS" & the Compilation of the first "Christian Bible(s)". There were all kinds of various factions running around calling themselves Christians way back in the first few Hundred Years after Jesus' death. Just as there are Gnostic & Apocryphal Books that never made it into the Cannonical Bible. What is apparent is that the Orthodox or Conservative faction won out in the end. This is when that line between "Church" & "State" becomes blurry. For example what would be of Christianity today if Emperor Constantine never allowed Christianity to become the official State Religion of the Roman Empire?

[edit on 18-6-2006 by Seraphim_Serpente]



posted on Jun, 18 2006 @ 09:34 PM
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Im not quite sure what it is to which you are alluding seraphim serpente...the line between church and state in past history or today??

At some point in history past???
Can you clarify this for me??

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Jun, 19 2006 @ 04:08 PM
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the (blurry) line between church and state in past history or today??
Can you clarify this for me??


Well... BOTH! OK, back then in Medieval Europe you had the Catholic Church which was dominant. The Pope was the person who would Crown the Kings of European Countries. There are plenty of stories of the Catholic Church going after & Killing anyone who was not them more or less = Protestants, Jews, Moslems, Gnostics, Pagans & so on! Sure there were times when say the King of England would get pissed at the Pope - Break off & start his own "Church of England" (That would be the Anglican Church, Correct?). Of-course Martin Luther also did his thing - but the Protestant Revolution was very Bloody indeed - as was the U.S. Revolution! Why would we want to go back to that after all of the Blood that was shed which resulted in the Freedom & Liberty that we have today (Because the Founding Fathers did NOT want the same thing to happen to the Nation they were creating)?

But alas that brings me to my other point! You just have to look at the relationship President Bush has with "Evangelical Christians" to see that it is starting to happen again today in our Country. Minus the Blood of-course. But it is plain to see that Christianity or at least Christian Morals/Ideology is being pushed/forced onto people that are not Interested. They feel that they don't necessary have to be Christian to be an American. We have Freedom in this country - that is why Separation of Church & State (via the Law that we currently have) should be maintained.



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