The Fact is, Jesus is the prophesied Messiah

Story of the Flood///

"God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually... So the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth" (Gen. 6:5,7)

Moses says of this, "and all the fountains of the great abyss were opened" (Gen. 7:11), and then he also speaks of rain. Furthermore, these alluvial deposits cover, in a thick layer, all Europe, North Africa and Western Asia to the highest peaks. The scientist Couvier called this sediment, this thick alluvial deposit, "Deluge."

THE FLOOD

helen

[edit on 5/16/2006 by helen670]

Originally posted by helen670
many references made to Jesus Christ being the promised Messiah..........

In the Old Testament books, several hundred prophecies about the Messiah and His blessed Kingdom can be found.
They are scattered throughout almost all the books of the Old Testament, beginning with the Five Books of Moses and ending with the last prophets Zachariah and Malachi.
The Prophet Moses, King David, the Prophets Isaiah, Daniel and Zachariah wrote the most about the Messiah.

The central theme of the Old Testament Holy Books is the coming of the Messiah and the establishment of the Kingdom of God among people. Old Testament prophecies about the Messiah, the Savior of the World, with the aim of discussing their contents and to show how they were fulfilled in the Lord Jesus Christ and in the New Testament Church.

MUCH TO READ

* Introduction
* Survey of the Messianic Prophecies
* The Prophecies in the Books of Moses
* The Prophecies of King David
* The Prophecies of Isaiah
* The Suffering Messiah
* The Resurrection of the Messiah
* The Prophecies of Daniel
* Prophesies of the “Lesser” Prophets
* Awaiting the Coming of the Messiah
* The Fulfillment of the Old Testament Prophecies
* Distorted Notions About the Messiah
* In the Appendix
o Prophecies regarding the Church and New Testament Times
o Two Paschas (Easters)
o The Forthcoming Conversion of the Jewish people to Christ
* The Index of the Messianic Prophecies
o a) by content
o b) by author in chronological order

Published with the kind permission of Bishop Alexander Mileant

helen

There are no references to Jesus in the Torah. There are things that over and over again christians point to that most often prove to be mistraslations or an overall misunderstanding of biblical hebrew and biblical jewish life. You are of course welcome to bring your specific quotes and I will debunk them.

As I stated in a previous post to say that the Torah says anything about Jesus is to suggest that the Jewsih people have been mistranslating thier own book and prophesies for thousands of years and that you now have the correct traslations and interpretaion. I find this very arrogant and generally distasteful. The Jews have been awaiting the messiah and if he had come they would have no reason to reject him. You would use thier prophesies but reject thier interpretaion of them. You dont get to pick and choose. That would be the the equivalent of a me going in and stealing the quran and then going out into the muslim community and boldly proclaiming I have a NEW religion and that I now know exactly what muhammed meant even though i dont even read arabic. LOL I dont think I would be met with open arms do you?

[edit on 16-5-2006 by kokoro]

You have voted kokoro for the Way Above Top Secret award.

You get a big kookeh!

Tis true. The jewish people did not accept Jeebus as the messiah as he did not fulfill the prophecies. Just as other people before and after *almost* made the cut for being the messiah in the jews eye's, they too were rejected for not fulfilling all the god damned prophecies. There is no second comming. This is alien to the jews. All these prophecies are jewish prophecies. Now let's add 1+1. No silly christian, it's not 42. You been reading too much hitch hikers guide to the galaxy again. Flying monkehs from jupiter live only to breath french onion dip!!!

There are no references to Jesus in the Torah. There are things that over and over again christians point to that most often prove to be mistraslations or an overall misunderstanding of biblical hebrew and biblical jewish life. You are of course welcome to bring your specific quotes and I will debunk them. As I stated in a previous post to say that the Torah says anything about Jesus is to suggest that the Jewsih people have been mistranslating thier own book and prophesies for thousands of years and that you now have the correct traslations and interpretaion. I find this very arrogant and generally distasteful. The Jews have been awaiting the messiah and if he had come they would have no reason to reject him.

The Torah says the chief cornerstone is rejected. Salvation thru the cornerstone, the Messiah, who is rejected by the builders. The Jews are the builders and they rejected the Cornerstone, just like it says.

Your lack of understanding won't change the facts. What is prophesised has been fulfilled.


Psalms 118:19 Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD: 20 This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter. 21 I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation. 22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.

Psalms 118:22

Well for once I agree with the translation but I do not agree with the interpretation.
The "cornerstone" that is rejected in this verse has a dual meaning.

1. It is referring to King David who was rejected by his own father and brothers when Samuel was to anoint one of his sons as the king of Israel. However, he is now king so they are rejoicing.

2. It is a metaphorical depiciton of Israel that is described in Genesis 49:24 as a rock. Israel has been rejected by the gentile nations as the chosen people of G-d even thought the Torah says that his covenant with them is eternal but eventually the Jewish people will be recognized as the ones who have kept the ways of Torah and therefore the ways of Hashem.

So this verse is in no way referring to the messiah at all and has never been interpreted as such even before Jesus' time.


There are however, many verses in the Tanakh that do deal with the true messiah and what he is supposed to be and do and I have already pointed those out to you and you have avoided them. Why did Jesus not build a temple if he was the messiah? Why was he not anointed as king if he was the messiah? Why is there not peace throughout the world if Jesus was the messiah? So no what has been prophesied has not been fulfillled, not even remotely. And you have presented no facts to date because with just simply looking at your inaccurate translations I have debunked your proofs so far.

[edit on 16-5-2006 by kokoro]

[edit on 16-5-2006 by kokoro]

So this verse is in no way referring to the messiah at all and has never been interpreted as such even before Jesus' time.

The verse is clear. Entering the gates of righteousness, the gate of the Lord, thru Him who became our salvation. The cornerstone that was rejected by the builders. No dual meaning. It is direct, to the point, prophesied and fulfilled. You are free to reject that which is clear to those who see.

There are however, many verses in the Tanakh that do deal with the true messiah and what he is supposed to be and do and I have already pointed those out to you and you have avoided them.

You can stop with the avoid stuff. I just don't have time to to address every post.
As far as your Messiah, temple question, the temple is built already, you are just unaware.

Luke 17:20 "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21 nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."

Why did Jesus not build a temple if he was the messiah?

He built the temple of God, you are just unaware, as it is not within you. The Anti Christ will put the plan in place to rebuild the physical temple.

Why was he not anointed as king if he was the messiah?

You already know the answer, second coming. The Messiah comes as a suffering servant who is rejected and returns as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah.

Why is there not peace throughout the world if Jesus was the messiah?

Things are going just as the Bible says, the Nation of Israel has been restored and Satans kingdom is coming to power on the earth as the NWO. No surprises for those who know the truth.

So no what has been prophesied has not been fulfillled, not even remotely.

The unfilled prophesies can all be seen forming. Right now you are likely witnessing the fulfillment of Jeremiah 50 and 51 which will continue for some time.

And you have presented no facts to date because with just simply looking at your inaccurate translations

Tell that to someone who doesn't know better. You are not hiding behind that.

I have debunked your proofs so far.

And I promply set the record straight. The Jews rejected the cornerstone just like it says. He who provides salvation and righteousness has been rejected by the builders.

The verse is clear. Entering the gates of righteousness, the gate of the Lord, thru Him who became our salvation. The cornerstone that was rejected by the builders. No dual meaning. It is direct, to the point, prophesied and fulfilled. You are free to reject that which is clear to those who see.

Well there goes the arrogance again, thinking that you know better how to interpret the Torah than those who have kept it for thousands of years. You can believe what you want but yours is not the correct interpretation, you have just twisted it to say what you want it to because you cannot accept that you have been decieved.

You can stop with the avoid stuff. I just don't have time to to address every post.
As far as your Messiah, temple question, the temple is built already, you are just unaware.

He built the temple of God, you are just unaware, as it is not within you. The Anti Christ will put the plan in place to rebuild the physical temple.

Oh give me a break! The messiah is to build the actual physical temple, period. This is a perfect example of how you twist the prophesy to fit your belief instead of changing your belief to fit the facts. You cannot submit somehting that is not verifyable as a fact or proof!!

Why was he not anointed as king if he was the messiah?

You already know the answer, second coming. The Messiah comes as a suffering servant who is rejected and returns as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah.

Well until the day that happens this prophesy is considered unfufilled and therefore Jews cannot and will not accept him as the messiah. It has been 2000 since your diety died, how long will you worship a dead human?? 3000, 4000 years? You cannot submit something that has not happened as a fact or proof!! that is called conjecture

Things are going just as the Bible says, the Nation of Israel has been restored and Satans kingdom is coming to power on the earth as the NWO. No surprises for those who know the truth.

Second comming again huh? Seems that is the catch all of the unfulfilled. That is a very convenient argument LOL It is about as convincing as this dancing bananna

The unfilled prophesies can all be seen forming. Right now you are likely witnessing the fulfillment of Jeremiah 50 and 51 which will continue for some time.

even if only one of them remains unfulfilled then he is not the messiah!!! The criteria for the messiah is very clear and G-d has shown us how to identify a false prophet.

And you have presented no facts to date because with just simply looking at your inaccurate translations

Tell that to someone who doesn't know better. You are not hiding behind that.

You obviously dont know better if you think that you can read better Hebrew than people who were born and raised Jewish and all of the rabbinical scholars in Israel. im not hiding behind anything, the translations I provided are cold hard facts in the true sense of the word.

And I promply set the record straight. The Jews rejected the cornerstone just like it says. He who provides salvation and righteousness has been rejected by the builders.

Umm no you have set nothing straight, you have only repeated the same lie you told before.

[edit on 16-5-2006 by kokoro]

[edit on 16-5-2006 by kokoro]

[edit on 16-5-2006 by kokoro]

[edit on 16-5-2006 by kokoro]

Well until the day that happens this prophesy is considered unfufilled and therefore Jews cannot and will not accept him as the messiah.

I know, exactly as prophesied.

It has been 2000 since your diety died, how long will you worship a dead human?? 3000, 4000 years?

Hosea 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Two thousand years should do.

Ah yes, that old favourite! I was wondering how long it would take before you brought up the one day equals one thousand years line. Tell me then, when are references meant to be taken as days and when are they meant to be taken in thousands of years? Certainly sounds like some interpretations and assumptions may be required here.

Originally posted by helen670
Story of the Flood///

That is what it is. A story.. and I've read it thanks.

Furthermore, these alluvial deposits cover, in a thick layer, all Europe, North Africa and Western Asia to the highest peaks.

Indeed.. Sunmatrix already tried that one earlier:
~My response~.. [which went ignored because he didn't have an answer. ]

Here is an idea. Go do a search on 'how mountains are formed'; tectonic plates collide. Unlike Noah's mythological flood.. this actually has happened and the sea shells and others fossils you speak of are indeed millions of years old.. not 5000. After you do that.. research sedimentary layers as well. There was a partial world flood about 15,000 years ago [end of the last ice age] but again Noah was ten thousand years too late for that one as well. Are you going to say the bible time line is wrong now so you can be right? I know.. facts can be so inconvenient sometimes..

Feel free to address the points marked in bold. He ran away from these facts.. are you willing to accept them?

The scientist Couvier called this sediment, this thick alluvial deposit, "Deluge."

There is no such layer that covers the entire earth so it is NOT evidence of a world wide flood [or even the places you have mentioned- while there may be evidence there I do not consider your source to be even remotely credible]. Again.. common sense plays an important role here as well because PROVING a world wide flood would mean PROVING it happened.. world wide.


The 'evidence' you provided is also not scientific.. it is a tiny mention amongst bible propoganda. It also fails to mention WHEN this 'layer' was deposited.. 5000 years ago? 10? And the vague mention of the scientist 'Couvier'.. no wonder they only gave his surname.. they even failed to even spell it correctly.. I guess that may be because they wouldn't want to make it too easy to find out how outdated his work is.. that would be contrary to their agenda:

Georges Cuvier (1769-1832)

I'm sure you are just dieing to know more about this scientist's opinions:

'Unearthing Cuvier'
The transitions' suddenness from one stratum to the next, hence from one population to the next, convinced him that the species of each period were wiped out by geological catastrophes. But he made no effort to link the last catastrophe with Noah's flood, and indeed went out of his way to argue that it was not worldwide, as the Bible implied.

If you are not afraid of facts.. go to an unbiased, non biblical scientific site instead of sifting through them till you find one that suits your beliefs. If Noah's story is accurate the facts presented should support the bible's positon without even mentioning him.

[edit on 17-5-2006 by riley]

Ill be getting back to this thread later today or tomorrow morning. I have landscaping to be done in the mean time LOL

Ok....

So what does I AM THAT I AM (Exos. 3.13. - 14). actually mean to you?

And why does Abraham .....
An even more remarkable instance occurs with Abraham: three men appeared to him yet he addressed them as if they were but one (cf. Gen. 18.2 et seq.).

‘Before Abraham was, I am’ (John 8.58).
‘I and my Father are one’ (John 10.30).
‘My Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him’ (John 14.23).
‘I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever’ (John 14.16).
(So now a Third Person is introduced.) ‘The Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me’ (John 15.26).


One more thing..
“Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion, Shout O daughter of Jerusalem: Behold your King is coming to you;…He shall speak peace to the nations; His dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth” (Zach.9:9-10).
In accordance with this prophecy the Messiah was to proclaim peace to mankind — reconciliation with God and the cessation of enmity among people.

I guess what people do is of their own freewill.......

“If it is agreeable to you, give Me My wages; and if not, refrain” so they weighed out for My wages thirty pieces of silver. And the Lord said to me “throw it to the potter — that princely price they set on Me.” So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord for the potter” (Zach. 11:12-13).

In the following prophecy, Zachariah foretold that the Messiah would be betrayed for thirty pieces of silver.
In the prophecy the discourse emanates from the name of God, Who offers the Judean commanders to designate to Him a payment for all that He did for their people: “If it is agreeable to you, give Me My wages; and if not, refrain” so they weighed out for My wages thirty pieces of silver.
And the Lord said to me “throw it to the potter — that princely price they set on Me.” So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord for the potter” (Zach. 11:12-13).
As we know from the Gospel that for thirty pieces of silver Judas Iscariot betrayed his Teacher.
However Judas did not expect that Christ would be condemned to death. Having heard of this, he regretted his deed and threw away in the temple the coins that were given to him.
For those thirty pieces of silver, the high ranked priests bought from the potter a piece of land for the burial of strangers, just as Zachariah had predicted. (Mat. 27:9-10).

The prophet Amos foretold of the eclipse of the sun, which happened during Christ’s crucifixion.
“And it shall come to pass in that day” says the Lord God, That I will make the sun go down at noon, and I will darken the earth in broad daylight” (Am. 8:9).
We find a similar prophecy in Zachariah: “It shall come to pass in that day that there will be no light…It shall be one day which is known to the Lord: Neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen that it will be light” (Zach. 14:6-9).

IX helen

[edit on 5/18/2006 by helen670]

The scholars quest for the historical Jesus is misdirected. The historical
Jesus is a fake as well. Not that Jesus did not exist in history. He
existed in history as much as do the scholars who search for Him. His feet
walked the first-century roads of the Judean wilderness, His hands touched
the welts and sores of the first-century wandering lepers, and His body
was scourged by first-century Roman soldiers.
But the Jesus who lived 2,000 years ago is not the real Jesus. The real
Jesus is not the Jesus of the past but the Jesus of the now. To his 12
disciples and to those who truly knew Him, He was never the Jesus of the
"then." Even then, He was the Jesus of the "now." And that never changed.
For He said: "I am with you always, even to the end of the age." The real
Jesus still walks the Earth, still touches the needy, still heals and
makes whole, still works His miracles, and still transforms the lives of
all those who truly receive Him. Those who truly know Him, know Him no
other way. Because anything else is just history, not the real Jesus.[...]

[...]But the real Jesus did not come so that your life would remain the
same. The real Jesus is the one who said the words, "You must be born
again." He never got wrapped up in religion. But He did speak of a new
birth, a total surrender, a total new beginning, and a total change of
heart and life. IF your life has not been totally and absolutely changed,
you do not know Jesus or, at least, not the real one. And a Jesus who is
not real will never be able to make a real difference in any life. So do
not be fooled by imitations. Life is too short and eternity too long to
make a mistake on this one. Seek the real Jesus for yourself. As it is
written, "Then I will be found by you, when you search for Me with all
your heart." He is the real thing. And He came to give you something real:
life, real life. Everything else is just a pale imitation.
End Quote :Jonathan Cahn

Apocalyptic Hope

Originally posted by mytym
Ah yes, that old favourite! I was wondering how long it would take before you brought up the one day equals one thousand years line. Tell me then, when are references meant to be taken as days and when are they meant to be taken in thousands of years? Certainly sounds like some interpretations and assumptions may be required here.

Yes I have noticed this line of thinking come up regularly as well, the problem arises when you remember that adam supposedly lived until he was 930 - if he was made on day 6 and there was also a day 7 of a thousand years then adam should have died on day 7 which was not the case.

G

I also notice that Sun Matrix has been conspicuously absent on this thread lately. I had previously predicted this on another thread, which is not surprising, seeing as how one often goes into hiding after a defeat.

LOL As they all do when confronted with facts and evidence that their beliefs are wrong. Maybe one day they will realise and think for themselves and not follow blindly someone elses beliefs.
Chance would be a fine thing eh?


G

Originally posted by mytym
I also notice that Sun Matrix has been conspicuously absent on this thread lately. I had previously predicted this on another thread, which is not surprising, seeing as how one often goes into hiding after a defeat.

LOL, MYTYM, you post nothing but empty personal attacks. What have you brought to the table except for empty drivvvvvvvvvelllllllll.

It's pretty obvious that you are afraid that God is real. Why don't you bring something other than personal attacks. What are you afraid of? Is there another crutch that you are afraid I will pull out from under your empty world?

Sun Matrix:
Yes, the persistence of avoiding any issues I raise continues. What is obvious is that you cannot think for yourself and must use my material to wage your attacks. In addition to researching the terms fact, opinion, assumption and interpretation, you may want include personal attacks on the list as it is you who are constantly using this method to attack me.

I imagine I won't be hearing from you in the near future while you once again hide to lick your wounds and work on ridding yourself of the taste of humble pie that you have become so accustomed to. I can't believe you couldn't even disprove my first example, as you seemed so confident at the time. The least you could have done is forced me to produce a few examples before meekly falling in a heap. Another case of talking the talking without walking the walk. It is indeed a hollow victory, but a victory none the less. I'll use the time wisely to reflect it on the scoreboard.

Mytym,

You remind of the kid in high school that is always running his mouth about something and always wants to fight. Then when the time comes and he is challenged he, instead of coming forward and accepting the challenge, he backs up spits at you and runs. Then after he is far enough away and your back is turned, you see a few rocks flying over your shoulder. Then he runs around and tells everyone what an azz whoppin he laid on you and he is the only one with a bloody nose. Please, lets just stick to the facts.

Let's go back to your statement:

One of the downfalls of the Bible is that it provides so many opportunities to be proven wrong

Again, here was my response:

Well, I'm going to give you a chance to produce one of these many opportunities. I don't want a list of crap, just one of these many so called opportunities to prove the Bible wrong. You have the whole Bible to pick from. What you got?

Please provide some of these facts that prove the Bible wrong, since you say there are so many.

I'm here again at the flagpole, bub, you got anything besides spit and rocks this time.

It's time to either provide some of these facts and back up your words or become a man and admit that you are wrong. LET'S DEAL WITH THE FACTS, where are they.

Sun Matrix:
Once again, you are using my material to attack me. Try thinking for yourself. I mentioned talking the talk without walking the walk didn't I? What do they say about imitation being the greatest form of flattery. I'm honoured that you hold me in such high esteem. You truly are a committed fan of mine. Let me know if you would like an autographed picture. Just be careful you don't violate the worshipping false idols commandment.

Interesting how you changed your question from "ONE of the so many opportuinites" to "SOME of the so many facts" isn't it? I've provided the one example, let's hear a valid explanation for the contradiction? Once you adequately explain it, I am more than happy to provide another of the "so many".

Just to refresh your memory, here are the issues I have raised so far that you have failed to address adequately:

1. The contradiction that exists between the 120 year age limit imposed on human life and the many instances of people living longer than this age.

2. Where the 20 year gap between the handing down of this judgement and the call to Noah to build the ark is, if you wish to stick to your flawed interpretation.

3. How we could both come to different conclusions from reading the same passage exactly how it is written without interpretation.

4. How we are to distinguish between one day equalling one day and one day equalling one thousand years.

Either summon up the courage to address the points I raise or remain on the receiving end of a humiliating credibility loss. It's your choice. I will continue to bask in the spoils of victory while you contemplate this.