A few follow-up things to mention about Da Vinci and the painting. Bard Thompson said in Humanists and Reformers: A History of the Renaissance and Reformation (1996) that Da Vinci was not a religious individual. Thompson calls it a work of psychological insight. Da Vinci was not interested in doctrine, he wanted to capture the shock that took place when Christ announced that one of the 12 would betray Him. This is Thompson's explanation of why you would not have the sacrament, the grail and the bread, because Da Vinci wanted the attention to be focused on the reaction of the people as Christ said he'd be betrayed. The cup meant very little to Leo.

In addressing Dan Brown's specific claims about the painting, Bruce Boucher of the Art Institute in Chicago said,

Leonardo's composition points, in fact, in another direction for it confirms the traditional Florentine depictions of the Last Supper, stressing the betrayal and sacrifice rather than the institution of the Eucharist and chalice.

(Bucher, Bruce. Does "The Da Vinci Code" Crack Leonardo? The New York Times, Arts And Leisure, August 2, 2003)

He says later in the article that other depictions of John in Florence at the time looked very similar to the one that Da Vinci painted. I'm looking for those and may have another post later today.

[edit on 3/30/06/30 by junglejake]

Originally posted by phiniks
it's not the disciple whom Jesus loved... it's the disciple who loves Jesus more than the others.

Originally posted by junglejake


Why? This is why, John 13:23

There was reclining on Jesus' bosom one of His disciples, whom Jesus loved.

Identified as John or anyone other than Lazarus or in the gbostic texts Mary.

At the Last Supper, the disciple who is referred to as the one "whom Jesus loved." is generally regarded to be John. As such, depictions of the Last Supper often have John laying his head on Christ's breast. It's Biblical, yo

cant have it both ways. maybe that was what peter wanted both ways?

again nowhere is the disciple Who Jesus loved
identified as anyone other than Lazarus except in the gnostic texts where Mary is.

[edit on 30-3-2006 by stalkingwolf]

nice compilation Batz, that’s pretty much the conclusion that I had come too also. We also have graphics comparing the works, (this page and the previous) although not as an impressive a scale as on your site, good job mate, and welcome to ATS.

Another good point JJ made, was if its Mary, then where is John? Could DaVinci have forgotten one of the apostles? That is not likely.

I still can't understand how ppl treat this painting as if it was a photo taken by some "papparazzi" at the last supper itself...lol

For God's sake .. this painting was based on Leonardo DaVinci's personal religious beliefs... that doesnt make it true.

Just like if i Painted an image of Hillary Clinto with horns on her head, and it was found 500 year later, that doesnt mean she really had horns .. now does it ???

Do ppl stop to think anymore ????

I can't wait to see this movie, i am counting down the minutes, although I don't like who's playing the lead character in the movie tom Hanks. Hope he acts the scene well. anyway, it will be the bomb. the da vinci code is just a conspiracy. u know that guys.

Just like if i Painted an image of Hillary Clinto with horns on her head, and it was found 500 year later, that doesnt mean she really had horns .. now does it ???

You mean she doesn't?

Originally posted by stalkingwolf

Just like if i Painted an image of Hillary Clinto with horns on her head, and it was found 500 year later, that doesnt mean she really had horns .. now does it ???

You mean she doesn't?

well... point taken .. my bad ..

there are some traditions that say at least 1 of Jeshuas followers was already
in prison awaiting execution for the events @ the temple with the sellers and changers. Thaddeus comes to mind.

If he was jailed and Mary WAS present the # would still be 12.

Originally posted by stalkingwolf
there are some traditions that say at least 1 of Jeshuas followers was already
in prison awaiting execution for the events @ the temple with the sellers and changers. Thaddeus comes to mind.

If he was jailed and Mary WAS present the # would still be 12.

Easily said...Can you back that claim up?

Since the actual last supper and Da vinci's painting are seperated by 1,450 years, his painting is his version of the event. The picture is meaningless when trying to figure out the things of God.

It could be that John was just a feminine looking male. I think the only one who could put the question to rest is Leo. Also, I think that word of a woman at the last supper would have leaked out in other media at the time and that looking at only one painting isn't much proof of the matter.

Easily said...Can you back that claim up?

Which one? that one had been arrested or that there are traditions that
say it?


Well as TC has said many times in another forum this IS a conspiracy board.
and conspiracies need not have any foundation if fact.

for an example or two iwould refer you to David Icke and Jack Chick.

Yeah, listen to the lyrics
We are the ones prophesized to return
My main concern is for all of you to learn
How to live, yes through the lyrics I give and send my friend
This age is coming to an end
Not the world, but the age is ending
Ending, listen to the astrological message I'm sending
I'm sending, tell em
Truth is truth, whether or not you like me
We are living now in the age of Pisces
When Pisces is over, at the year two thousand
When the Sun of God, changes his house and
enters the Age of Aquarius
The Sun of God as man is hilarious (okay)
When you think of Jesus, think of the Sun
The flaming Sun, that's where they stole this concept from
Stop believing and read your bible logically
The new testament is really old astrology
Jesus is the son of God no lie
But they might be talking about the Sun up in the sky
The Sun, that hangs on the cross of the zodiac
The zodiac with twelve signs to be exact
Each sign is a house, and you should keep in mind
Each house equals, a period of time
The time, two thousand years and that's a fact
It's called an age or a house in the zodiac
The twelve disciples, are twelve months of reason
The four gospels signify the four seasons
When Jesus fed the multitude with two fishes
It signified the Age of Pisces, not fish or dishes
If you read the bible astrologically it's clearer (no doubt)
The next age will be the age of the water-bearer
It's called the Age of Aquarius (word)
When logic and truth will take care of us
So in this age, of spiritual dignity
You'll see a rise in femininity
and creativity, meshed with masculinity
You got to get with me, this is your true her-story (rrryyy!)
Do you wanna go higher...

The above is from the album of rap artist KRS ONE"I Got Next", and a couple posts here made me remember this. Deep stuff !

I'll say this again. The actual event of the real last supper and Da Vinci's painting are seperated by over 1000 years. There is nothing about the picture that can be talked about or assumed to be factual.

Originally posted by dbrandt
I'll say this again. The actual event of the real last supper and Da Vinci's painting are seperated by over 1000 years. There is nothing about the picture that can be talked about or assumed to be factual.

Likewise for the supposed event itself, of which we only have handed-down stories of, no eye-witness reports.

IMO the picture is allegorical, as is the original story itself. This is where interest, if there is any, in the painting lies - What are the allegories the artist is expressing?

The season separation of the 12 months/zodiac signs/disciples around the Sun/Son seems far more likely to me than any reference to Mary Magdelene in an androgynous character.