The Last Supper - DaVinci Code

Well the movie opens May 19th, and I’m sure there will be a rush of people looking for answers on ATS.

Personally I’ve read (or listened to the audio book, I forget) Dan’s Brown Novel and was a bit let down because it seemed every exposition scene was a cut of paste of Holy Blood, Holy Grail. (I’m sure this happened to many ATS members.)

One of the claims made was that Priory of Sion grandmaster Leonardo Da Vinci painted Mary Magdalene on Jesus' right side in his painting, The Last Supper. My question regarding this is pretty simple. Usually when making such claims we see (and think) this version of the painting:



I’m sure a glossy version of this will be shown in the film. However when you look in Art books you quickly noticed that Da Vinci’s version is quite different:



Let’s look closer…



Now, isn’t that a huge difference? Others say that given an apostle feminine features just meant that he was younger. - i don't see that either.

From the pics above, I personally just can’t tell.

Maybe we should start a Da Vinci Code Debunking static page before the crowds rush in.

I’d appreciate if this didn’t become a thread about the movie itself. (As it might get move to BTS) If you want to discuss the movie itself, there’s already a thread here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

BTW can anyone spot the anachronism in Da Vinci’s painting? (answer: Hebrews of ancient Jerusalem did not use chairs while eating, they would’ve laid down on coaches like the Romans.)

Hmm.. should I have posted this in the Secret Society forum?
(Priory of Sion = secret society)

Right now it appears that the Movie may not come out as scheduled.

There is a lawsuit filed to stop it.

The author of the fictional book, Holy Blood Holy Grail wants his piece of the pie, since he made up the story that the movie is based on.

[edit on 18-3-2006 by Sun Matrix]

I doubt he could get anything out of it, you just can’t copyright ideas. Fiction or not. (Although I mentioned before, I saw the exposition as a Cut and Paste job, I met in ideas only. Brown didn’t actually copy the text.)

a discussion about the movie is already in full swing here. I’m sure they’d love to hear what you have to say. (with a link of course)

Edit: …. Couldn’t resist.

Their lawsuit claims at least £150,000 damages for breach of copyright, saying a "substantial" amount of their work has been used and asking that copies of The Da Vinci Code be destroyed.

Source: www.nzherald.co.nz...

IMHO, I doubt that’s going to stop the release of a major Hollywood film.



[edit on 18/3/06 by ConspiracyNut23]

IMHO, I doubt that’s going to stop the release of a major Hollywood film.

I just repeated what was reported in the news on TV. I didn't conclude that, the news story did.

A Big so what! means nothing they where all there,at the last supper! It's only a paintaing of what it might have been like!

Orca if a woman was present at the Last Supper, it is indeed a big deal. (or not) Sorry, Sun Matrix I didn’t mean to imply that you did.

Now, I’m seeking opinions here, can someone comment if the above is a woman, a man or, in my opinion it’s impossible to tell.

[edit on 18/3/06 by ConspiracyNut23]

Well, I can tell you its definitely a guy, not a girl. Theres where 12 Apostles, and with Jesus that makes the thirteen people in the picture. There was no one else present in that room at that time(There were other people around, just not with them, as this was a special thing, and incase you don't know, this is where, I believe, the first mass started). And remember, DaVinci was not there, and i don't think anyone truly knows what the Apostles looked like in DaVincis time, so painting a picture of them is alot of guess work I'm guessing. And one more thing, I'm not sure what you believe and don't believe, but just incase, I saw it in your title, don't belive the "DaVinci Code", its a bunch of bull, its just some guy making up stuff and taking a theory and twisting it into facts and what not. Heres a link to a good book about it too, give it a chance.

www.ignatius.com...

But please remember, Davinci is nothing more then a good painter, he wasn't trying to make some hidden message or something, just painting a good picture of something that was truly great that happened in history. Hmmmm, hope that helps some, my mind is starting to drift off, I'm bloody dead tired. well, bye.


P.S. Please don't flame or fight with me or anything, I don't get into that just incase, and if you do want to talk or ask something,I don't mind but theres no chance i'll be back, I may not be back for a long time if ever just to let you know, i just wanted to post this.

Originally posted by Tutsuki
DaVinci was not there

You make some good points, however what I’m trying to determine (or get opinions on) is whether DaVinci himself believed there was a girl present at the Last Supper. Then, illustrated what he imagined.

I think the anachronism I mention, is a good example that he wasn’t actually there.

thanks for the link.

The author of the fictional book, Holy Blood Holy Grail wants his piece of the pie, since he made up the story that the movie is based on.

The Book HBHG , The story and the premis it was centered on were not "made up by" Its authors. NOTE : Authors, there were 3. one of which is not a part of this litigation and has infact
seperated from the other 2 long since.

Many of the theories they presented were not i repeate WERE NOT their original works.
In fact many dated from the middleages and before. THEY were stories told for generations
much the same as the FABLES of your Jeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzus.

Well, I can tell you its definitely a guy, not a girl. Theres where 12 Apostles, and with Jesus that makes the thirteen people in the picture. There was no one else present in that room at that time

and you were personally there and can attest to the fact that ALL the people present
were male?
You have made a statement of fact. only your personal presence at the event in question
is acceptable as substantiation for this statement. anything else is hearsay , and not admisable as evidence.

quote: Originally posted by Tutsuki
DaVinci was not there

Nor I AM SURE were YOU.


Another consideration when perusing the various renderings of DaVincis Last supper is
when was the rendering made ? was it before the cleaning of the original? Before or after the most current " restoration"? or is it someone elses "version of The mural? I personally have
3 different versions of This Piece, all similar but with differences.

[edit on 20-3-2006 by stalkingwolf]

www.abcgallery.com...

Conspiracy nut, I think this might be the same picture you posted but it comes up a bit larger but yeah it is kind of hard to tell. I read the Da Vinche code a couple a years back and checked out the picture a few times.

I try to be as objective as possible, and my first initial reaction to the painting is always the same, and that the figure looks feminine. The tilt of the head somehow seems more feminine than masculine, there definitely appears to be curves on the figure(the shadow under the bosom), plus the article of clothing, the neckline seems to coincide with those adorned by women, as it is wider almost to the shoulder.

Anyways, just wanted to throw that in there see what you thought.

Also, I read Holy Blood, Holy Grail and while I enjoyed reading both that and Da Vinche code I didn't find they resembled each in any way. There are many books using the same info, as Stalkingwolf said.

HBHG to me was more a referance book based on some facts, some summarization and theories by the authors.

Da Vinche Code was a great action adventure story.

Both books gave me the chance to get lost for awhile, and make theories and summarizations on my own. Whether there are truths or not in either of the books, in no way was either of the reading experiences diminished.

Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
You make some good points, however what I’m trying to determine (or get opinions on) is whether DaVinci himself believed there was a girl present at the Last Supper. Then, illustrated what he imagined.

We may never know what DaVinci thought, unless someone discovers his writings on the subject. To be perfectly honest, I have no clue whether It's supposed to depict John the "Beloved" or Mary. It just looks like a feminine characater in a painting. During DaVinci's time, men of wealth and position often looked feminine so it could just be a culture thing.

I think the whole Mary Magdalene issue is a bit of red herring, not entirely maybe.

I do think the artwork discussed in 'The Holy Blood & The Holy Grail' are symbolic and allegorical, but maybe more concerned with the Jesus story as a Solar allegory, rather than specifically concerned his 'official' lineage.

To this end, I'm more inclined to see the Last Supper along these lines, with the 12 Zodiac Signs/Disciples grouped into Seasons around the Sun:





[edit on 21-3-2006 by VelvetSplash]

OK, I'm back. Guess I should have been a little more descriptive with my last post and what not, but I was too tired(who cares any way). so, I'll mention a couple things, the Apostle on Jesus's right is the Apostle John(yes a guy, as I said before there was no one else present but the 12 Apostles and Jesus), and to what I believe if I remember my history correctly, he was also the youngest Apostle, he was in his later teens I believe(which is probably why he looks young and has no facial hair yadda yadda). Now for a little info on how Davinci painted pictures like these(again if I remember correctly, I haven't kept up my studies in certain areas, but I'll take a look in some of my old books I got on him if I get a chance, plus I have this bloody huge book on him, like 4 inches think, 1 foot wide, and nearly 2 feet tall, lots of juicy stuff, ehumph...anyway), what he had was a bunch of actors(or models if you prefer) pose for the picture and he painted them. What you might be seeing(in my opinion for now) is the one person that posed for the Apostle John just looked that way.

[edit on 25-3-2006 by Tutsuki]

OK... Jesus... gotcha !
12 Apostles... gotcha !
Where's the LAST BUSBOY?

Tutsuki, are there any sketches or character studies for The Last Supper in your big book? (specifically for whoever is sitting on Jesus’ right.)

VelvetSplash, I’m not sure if its synchronicity or just ATS (since that seems to happen a lot here) but I had just heard about the 12 apostles = 12 sign of the Zodiac theory. I was just about to look into that, thinking it was interesting. Do you have any great links for that?

A little info on the painting itself:

Leonardo began painting the Last Supper in 1495 and completed it in 1498. It is still at the same location today at the Church and Dominican Convent of Santa Maria delle Grazie. (A World Heritage site. Alex Jones, are you getting this?

The pigment soon began to break loose from the base and a process of progressive decay set in. As early as 1517, it was noted to have begun to decay.

More than wood panel used in frescoes, the brick wall of the Last Supper has been subject to changes in temperature, humidity, and moisture. These factors have created serious damage to Leonardo's painting and place serious doubt on his new technique.

Source:
ccat.sas.upenn.edu...
(bold emphasis mine)

There’s also a complete history of the painting’s (rather terrible) restorations on the same site here:
ccat.sas.upenn.edu...

PB I think the busboy was busy with Buddha and the 12 Chinese Zodiacs having a birthday party next door... (whoever invited the tiger is in deep doo-doo. )

Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
VelvetSplash, I’m not sure if its synchronicity or just ATS (since that seems to happen a lot here) but I had just heard about the 12 apostles = 12 sign of the Zodiac theory. I was just about to look into that, thinking it was interesting. Do you have any great links for that?

Yes I do, try this site.

home1.gte.net...
home1.gte.net...

Check out the links to some books on comparitive religion on that site (somewhere), some of them are very good reading.

It's a part of the Jesus, Son of God, as an allegory for Jesus as the SUN of God idea - one I think I subscribe to. The similarities between Jesus and other Solar birth-death-rebirth deities tends to go beyond just 'coincidence' IMO.

Some other posts I made on the subject (sorry I linked to the page they are on, I couldn't see if, on ATS, we can link to individual posts):

www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Don't know if this has been brought up yet, but Rennaisance artists usually depicted St. John (the youngest apostle) as looking feminine. He was always depicted as a beardless youth, but at some point his image became very feminine (sorry I'm away from my books) but there are plenty of examples of it.

Whether you agree with his opinions or not, Paul Smith has done a pretty good job compiling evidence against the HBHG/DaVinci Code hypothoses, including St. John in the Last Supper. Here is a link with examples of a feminine St. John that predate DaVinci's Last Supper:
priory-of-sion.com...

The question that always bothered me is this: If it is Mary and not St. John then who is missing and why would the nuns at Santa Maria delle Grazie approve of such a controversial painting in their refectory?

That's compelling evidence piersploughman, the other paintings show strikingly similar representations of St. John, especially the 'Domenico Ghirlandaio (detail), c. 1486' painting.

One thing that strikes me is all these images show St. John, not only looking young, nubile, effeminate, even homo-erotic in some of the examples - but also in a submissive role, with his head tilted - Is there a significance for this, besides his age?


///

One thing that just struck me, in Da Vinci's 'The Last Supper', there is an arch over Jesus' head, which is a symbol for the Sun-rise.

Does anyone know of any early writings, prior to any paintings, that depict St. John as feminine?

I have never studied the Bible and may have missed it, but was wondering if it may have given some sort of description of his appearance.