Meaning of 'Deny Ignorance'.. double meaning?

Not sure if this has been brought up before...so forgive me if I its a duplicate thread....

When i first arrived on this board and reading the motto 'Deny Ignorance', the first thought in my mind was 'errrr....what?'

My reaction because I was thinking in past tense terms...

Deny Ignorance if referring to yourself, and you are already ignorant....then you should deny it!....ie (im not ignorant!!!) even though you may be....

Deny Ignorance if referring to someone else, and they are already ignorant...then you should deny it!...ie (You aren't ignorant) even though they may be....

Then the future tense....

Deny Ignorance...if you see yourself becoming ignorant..then deny it from happening.....(which i think may be the actual meaning behind the motto of ATS)

Deny Ignorance...if you see someone else becoming ignorant...then deny it from happening.... (ie, persuade them not to be ignorant on subjects discussed).

So there are 4 meanings which I came across.... in 2 groups....past and future tense

Has anyone else thought about this?

So....what does 'Deny Ignorance' mean to you?

Kind Regards
Merger

Originally posted by Merger

When i first arrived on this board and reading the motto 'Deny Ignorance', the first thought in my mind was 'errrr....what?'

You might want to check out this thread by SkepticOverlord


Deny Ignorance (ats motto)

Cheers!

Kind Regards
Merger

No problem, glad I could help.

larry994

This is funny to me because with all the denial of the bleeding obvious that goes on here, and the amount of masons that make it look like their own site, to me it reads, Deny (Deny Deny) = Ignorance.

Surely I'm not the only one familier with 'secret' public speaking. You know, the old code of, "mean what you say, but don't say what you mean", the old "double meaning double speak"?

Could "Deny Ignorance" mean, "This is where Masons/that ilk can come to 'spread' ignorance"?

I probably wouldn't think this way if the home board had a permanent link to the many codes and tactics used by secret society members, in everything from speech patterns, posture, dress etc., to even, home and garden design and decore.

Seriously, with the rapid growth of members, wouldn't it 'look' better, for a conspiracy site, if newbies could bone up on, 'the language of secrets and codes' and other tools to avoid being hoodwinked, instead of being sent to long threads full of masons playing the 'deny, deny, deny game', when they ask these key questions?

Please folk, don't attack me for this post. I know all the arguments used to shout down those who question the purpose of ATS (I still hurt for poor whitelightwolf), but you can't say you "DENY IGNORANCE" unless you question ALL things.

Suzy Ryan I think you miss the point of Deny Ignorance completely, did you even look at that other thread by the Admin? You cannot deny ignorance with out seeing all sides of an issue even if you disagree with that other side. I registered on this site last year, forgot about it for a while, came back and spents weeks lurking offline and just reading before getting enough nerve and overcoming my paranoid fears of Big Brother before posting. Have you ever read some of the very early threads on this site, they are still here you know and I think if people took the time to really read through the really old stuff till present, they would see that there isn't something to fear and that this board is run by Masons, I can point you to boards run by Masons, maybe you should compare those to this place and then rethink your position. During my lurking Suzy Ryan, I have to admit I have read many of your posts, and there are certain member names which I have already made an opinion on. Some of these people, I think are pretty bright, others are funny, some just regular like me and then there are absolutely closeminded, bigoted and arrogant individuals on here. There are also quite a few mentally imbalanced people on this website and you Suzy Ryan are one of them. Get a grip on reality.

Originally posted by suzy ryan
This is funny to me because with all the denial of the bleeding obvious that goes on here, and the amount of masons that make it look like their own site, to me it reads, Deny (Deny Deny) = Ignorance.

That depends on what forum you hang out in. Some think (From being in the war on terror forum too much) this site is just an anti-Arab site. Some believe(from ufo forum) that this site is full of government dis-info agents. It's all a point of view. I personally don't notice the Masons at all, but then I rarely go into the Secret Organizations forum.

ATS...sort of like the story of the 6 blind men and the elephant.

And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

[edit on 17-3-2006 by dbates]

Originally posted by tropicallee
Suzy Ryan I think you miss the point of Deny Ignorance completely....There are also quite a few mentally imbalanced people on this website and you Suzy Ryan are one of them. Get a grip on reality.

Gee did you bother to read my post?
You missed my points completely.
Your last lines are the classic tactic of one with no point to argue but not wanting the other's concidered.
It's so very old, weak, boring and insulting, though more to those who use it than those it's used against. Oh, and against the T&C of this site.

But don't worry, no one gets so much as a warn when they break rules to insult (shut their ears to) me, which doesn't bother me as the applause and extra points I've got for my posts lets me know I'm not completely wasting my time here.

So should we think you, like so many masons here, have some extra special ability to diagnose peoples mental health, from net posts?
Maybe you should all get together and start a buget practice, with all you'ld save on rooms rental, blood tests etc., that the real doctors can't do without.

O.K. Now there have been alot of bad things thought and said about ATS lately, here, on other sites and in 'the real world'.

I actually made suggestions that would help people trust ATS, going by the many complaints I've heard and read.

Years of living with a corrupt copper, who ended up becoming a Christian, made me too familier with the "deny, deny, deny" mantra and the "mean what you say but don't say what mean" concept, of that 'brotherhood', as are many others. Alot of these people are sensitive to key words and their arrangement. Denying it doesn't make it otherwise.

Attacks like yours actually make people hold more firmly to their initial impression or stop them from questioning (the path to denying ignorance) and drive many people away from the site. You can "tell" people to "trust" ATS but that will only make them more suspect if you don't also "show" them.

You can deny alot of people don't trust ATS, all you like, but that doesn't make it so. I simply pointed out some things the admins. could address to help turn that around.

Oh, and there are also disinfo. and 'repeat, repeat, repeat untill they believe the lie', folk on this site, who can sometimes be recognized by their calling those they can't shout down, mentally imbalanced.

Get a grip on reality. This is a site where conspiracies can be discussed, unless you've got the power to change it's purpose, as well as declare who is and isn't sane by your reading skill.

Look, I am aware alot of people see ATS as 'family' and get all paternal when they think it's being hurt but would any sane person not warn their loved one of self harming behaviour rather than hurt their feelings?

There are things ATS could do to improve the cyclicly negative opinions held by more than a few. One is calming down folk who attack others for suggesting any of those things.

Suzy, its too bad that I can't vote for you twice in one month. Over the last 1-2 years, I've seen this "family" grow AND become "paternal", its become alternative chat, not conspiracy disscussion. Sure one or two jabs with silly pictures is ok, but then it goes on for pages and starts to look like constructive dismissal.

Hoaxes or posts that seem like huge hoaxes shouldn't make the long time members go on auto protect ATS mode. It reminds me of when people state thier favorite console and everybody goes nuts and defends thier system and demands its the best.

However I don't think its masons at all, I think its all a need to belong.

Originally posted by XL5

However I don't think its masons at all, I think its all a need to belong.

Ta XL5, you picked up on what I was getting at, the difference between belonging and feeling ostrisized.

I like seeing all sorts of people express all sorts of views, I'm not one to suffer from info. overload, but rather find that the more sence and non-sence I'm aware of, the easier it is to recognize the difference between the two.

When a majority feel moved to attack anyone on a expressed view, rather than a, "cool, but I don't see it that way", then the board looks like it's trying to force an 'accepted', rather than 'proven' view on others.

The loss to the standard of ATS is probably never seen, as many 'lurkers', who could have great info. to share, read these 'gang attacks' and decide they don't want to be a part of it.

It's one thing to say, 'you're welcome', but quite a different thing to make folk 'feel' welcome.

Sure we can all get tired, moody and 'off' in responces to emotional topics and most can accept that if genuine admissions of posting 'below par', follow.

I can see how you might have that view point from hanging out in the secret societies forum, it has been a problem for a long time there and has been dealt with in a number of ways.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

It got so bad for a while that some of the worst offenders ended up being banned.


However no single forum really represents ATS as a whole IMHO.

The thing is, like I said, the more views and info. I can find, the better I like it, so I actually read most forums and respond to many.

If I only found these 'pit bull' type posts on secret soc. or religion and the like, it wouldn't 'look' suspect to me at all, but when you see certain people attack others on 'innocent' threads because they didn't like something they posted elsewhere (like one who tracked me down on a mad cow thread to imply I was anti-semite, because I can't support eugenics!?) or when out of the blue, someone claims to have read most of your posts and conciders you mental, without saying how or why they came to that conclusion, or countering the post they want others to disreguard based on their opinion of you, well...

But to me the most 'worrying' consistant trend on ATS is that defending masonry and attacking Christians (no matter what topic they're posting on) is so much more important to so many, than issues like the proven conspiracies of the modern slave trade, child sex rings etc. and that lately, though some have declared child sacrifice to NOT be "wrong or evil", so few have jumped in to disagree.

On the whole I see a attitude of "do what thou will; unless you will to be a Christian", a sort of 'green light' for any and everything, except being seen to believe some things (like the torture death of a 3 y.o. in the hope of getting unlimited riches) ARE evil.

Thankfully, I've also found many kind, wise and caring posters who encourage me that there still is alot of good in the world. Soficrow, Loam, Orangetom, think2much and many others with 'creative' names I won't attempt spell and who my cold filled head won't let me recall.

I really do enjoy my time on ATS, even the 'pit bulls', but then I used to work with dangerous 'animals' so their timid owners didn't have to fear them anymore.

My concerns are for those new and timid 'lurkers' we may never get to hear from due to them reading 'pack attacks' on poor new souls who dared to ask the 'wrong' question.

Plausible Deniability

One of the things I like about the motto "Deny Ignorance" is that it can be interpreted in so many different ways.

I am a fan of irony, after all.

One irony is that ATS would have a motto at all, since at the very heart and soul of ATS is an inherent respect for differing opinions to the degree that even something as innocuous as a motto could be seen as an attempt to sway opinion.

The real substance of the matter, however, is found in the nature of what ATS is: a community of people who don't like being told what to think.

These are the kind of people who gravitate to ATS.

Tacit Agreement

In such an environment, even a motto can be challenged, and is not binding. Only the AboveTopSecret.com Terms And Conditions Of Use actually are, and can be loosely summarized as follows:

1. Be honest.

2. Be polite.

3. Don't break the law.

4. Respect the staff.

Members who do these things are very unlikely to run afoul of the specifics of the T&C, and the staff goes to great lengths to respect all opinions which do not violate the agreement under which we post here.

Of Bulls And Elephants

I sometimes find myself feeling the same way suzy ryan does about one forum or another, but never about ATS as a whole. ATS is greater than the sum of its parts.

And though a troll gang here or a haxor there may cause trouble now and then, the foundation of ATS remains strong.

That's because ATS isn't based on a single personality, opinion or principle, but on the diversity of personalities, opinions and principles that results when we all come together to talk that "crazy talk" we all love to indulge in.

More often than I like, I'll find myself railing in self-righteous fervor about one thing or another. Then, when the flames die down, I find myself learning another lesson in humility. I seem to need frequent re-education in that discipline, for some reason.

But always I find myself re-learning the lesson dbates so aptly referred to above: a parable which gives us another perspective on the nature of our own ignorance.

There is much wisdom in the tale of The Blind Men and the Elephant, and much we can learn when we realize how accurately it describes the circumstances in which we ATSers debate the many questions of the day, a fable which concludes with this memorable and resonant verse:

So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!

Just so.

Deny Ignorance.

Originally posted by dbatesThat depends on what forum you hang out in. Some think (From being in the war on terror forum too much) this site is just an anti-Arab site. Some believe(from ufo forum) that this site is full of government dis-info agents.

And on, and on and on. That's why I hang out in Below TopSecret more than anywhere else. Besides it's more fun!

www.wordfocus.com...
And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

Kudos to Dbates. That was an excellent point.

I think the comparison made was apt. I've noticed the same thing, that understanding is a matter of perspective and not just perception.

Another appropriate analogy might be this.

That's just one small garden, and you can't see the whole thing from one vantage point. ATS is easily as complex as that garden, if not a million times more so, because of what it represents - a diverse human community. Life is quite a lot bigger than one garden.

Fully support the truth of the last two posts and I love Japanese gardens, the way they look wild and natural yet are highly planned and controled to look that way.

So from those wider and deeper, perspectives and perceptions, can anyone here see how a thread questioning the 'double meaning' of 'deny ingnorance', turning into an ATS praise thread, may make newbies suspicious?

I still think a permenant link to things like debating tactics, secret and code 'languages' and other tools for conspiracy theorists, on the home page, would 'say' much more good about the integrity of ATS than the praising posts or 'old timers' and 'regulars'.

Can anyone provide a link to 'double speak', coded and 'secret' 'languages'?
I can't remember any old ones I used to have but would be more interested in what is being printed about them today.

Sharing meaning I've learned from the source would only have a bunch of folk screaming for 'proof'.

Heh, not sure about what you mean about double speak, but I was always concerned when someone says 'I didn't do nothing!!' (general people assume they mean they didn't do anything...but literally, it means they DID do something!!"

I found it interesting that some people talk this way in court.... (judge judy cases i've seen)

Judge assumes they are saying they didn't do anything.......but the person saying it may not be lieing...and actually admitting they they did infact do something....... interesting!!!

Also, there is a tourist advert from australia that is being advertised around the world........ the words 'where the bloody hell are you' are used..... people are raving on and on about the word 'bloody' being used.... i think even though its good people are questioning this...it seems to be a slide of hand technique.... I'd rather be more concerned with the word 'hell' being used instead....government of Australia are saying its a good advert......hrmmm

Originally posted by Merger
Heh, not sure about what you mean about double speak!

Also, there is a tourist advert from australia that is being advertised around the world........ the words 'where the bloody hell are you' are used..... people are raving on and on about the word 'bloody' being used.... i think even though its good people are questioning this...it seems to be a slide of hand technique.... I'd rather be more concerned with the word 'hell' being used instead....government of Australia are saying its a good advert......hrmmm

Double Speak; when you can say one thing publicly but mean something quite different but ONLY those who know the 'code' will understand.

Remember 'the old school tie', how it would tell strangers you're one of 'them', well start looking at the ties of certain media personalities, politicians, news readers and those at big meeting etc. There's a 'pattern' in the cycle of colours and designs that more fits what's to come in war and business than anything to do with fashion trends.

In order to avoid being busted for conspiracy, "they", have to be able to comunicate quickly and boldly without being anything but innocent. The mans suit is a uniform for "them" to display "authority" to "command" without saying a word.

As to our "bloody hell" ad, well it should have been expected now that we have great huge "welcoming" Pyramid on a Sydney freeway.

Alot of expats. who went away to get rich and famous are now coming back home and bringing alot of others with them. Even Cate Blanchet is coming back so she can "send her son to an Australian school". Yeah right, like she can't afford to get him into the best schools where ever she lives.

One of the purposes of those 'secret meetings' is to be brought up to date on changing codes as the odd 'spy' twigs to them and 'new orders' are about to be 'announced'.

There is so much to this subject I just can't understand why a conspiracy site doesn't make it a feature.

But anyway, "Where the bloody hell are you?" don't you know this is the promised land?

Goodness gracious..... and Australia has a lot of 'symbolism' with regards to the egyptian culture....

I mean its even called 'The land down under' (i've heard people saying that it is in reference to hell...lol)

And even a lot of hollywood stars supposed to be aussies....Ie Nicole Kidman, Sam Niel..... Nicole was born in Hawai and Sam Niel was supposedly born in New Zealand...

Now is Mel Gibson actually Aussie born (not sure, as to why i asked)...

Kind Regards
Merger