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Originally posted by Manincloak
Nothing is unbeatable.
In December 2000, 2 Russian aircraft (su-24 striker and su-27 fighter) came right up on a CBG of over a dozen ships, totally by surprise, by simply going under the radar horizon.
Originally posted by devilwasp
Originally posted by justin_barton3
Okay then. if a US navy task force lost 6 ships, had 10 ships seriously damaged and lost 34 aircraft then it would be major news worldwide.
Justin
It was.....hence why we now have phalanx...
Originally posted by AmenToArtillery
Considering the Infantry is to be made up of those 70-80% of potential SEAL's that didnt gain their Tridents... Yeah, they washed out of BUD/s but that doesnt mean that they wont make good soldiers, simply means that they didnt have what it takes to make it through our countries most intense training regime.
Plus, if you consider the fact of how highly and actively we train our M.S.F detachments (which are primarly made up of standard-rate MAA's), then it makes the possibility of a SpecOps eqiuvlent Infantry even more likely.
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Originally posted by blackthorne
having been aboard 2 ships and shore duty in an 8.5 year stint, i would say that we do have the best ships in the world. and for the most part, the best men and women for crew.
and if i remember correctly, just before this engagement in iraq, there was a think tank at a war college that ran simulations on our fleet entering the straits of hormuz. in this simulation at a choke point, they had shore based enemies low teching their movements and communications. using easily mobile surface missiles, they did pretty good damage to our fleet.
still we do have the best, but pride and hubris goes before a fall.
there can be only one!
Originally posted by justin_barton3
I read a book by a guy who captained a ship in the falklands. From what he said the main problem was with the ineffectiveness of the British anti air missiles.
Justin
Originally posted by StellarXIf you read the article you would have noticed it mentioning that 10 000 American navy personal have tested positive for banned substances between i think 2001 and 2003. If you think you can build the best navy in the world on that basis i imagine we have different standards entirely. History has shown that numbers rarely wins the day when it's all you bring to the party.
You have my total agreement there!
Originally posted by StellarXWhile overestimating the enemy might rob you of initiative underestimating him will often just kill you.
Stellar
Originally posted by JamesinOz
The Falklands incurred greater losses on both sides that I was aware of, so perhaps not just a skirmish. As I understand it the Exocet's did a lot more damage than was expected at the time and underscored the danger that these types of weapons pose to modern naval forces.
Imo, flashpoints for possible naval battles in the medium term future might be in the Straits of Malacca and the Eastern Mediteranean.
In the Straits of Malacca it could be China vs USN/allied navies and I'd imagine submarines would play a big role in any such conflict which would be over a Chinese naval blockade of trade routes.
Such a conflict could spread to the waters around Indonesia so hopefully the Aussie diesel subs will be working by then as they'd play a central role in any such conflict.
Originally posted by FredT
Can you give us more details than that? Where etc. Perhaps a link ??????
The examples above from unscripted naval exercise evolutions provide ample evidence of the vulnerability of US Navy carrier battle groups to attacks from diesel submarines, but of course there are other ways to sink a carrier, as the Russian Air Force knows well. In October 2000, the smart-looking aircraft carrier USS Kitty Hawk was “mugged” by Russian SU-24 and Su-27 aircraft, which were not detected until they were virtually on top of the carrier. The Russian aircraft buzzed the carrier’s flight deck and caught the ship completely unprepared. To add insult to injury, the Russians took very detailed photos of the Kitty Hawk’s flight deck, and very courteously, provided the pictures to the American skipper via e-mail. In a story in the December 7, 2000 edition of WorldNetDaily, one US sailor exclaimed, “The entire crew watched overhead as the Russians made a mockery of our feeble attempt of intercepting them.” Russia’s air force is now only a faint shadow of what it once was, but even now, they can demonstrate that they can, if necessary, do significant damage to the US Navy. It is little wonder then that a Russian newspaper gloated that “If these had been planes on a war mission, the aircraft carrier would definitely have been sunk.
Why also did the Kitty Hawk, 40 minutes later, finally launch aircraft to intercept the Russian planes that had already flown over, but did no physical harm to the ship? Why was it necessary to belatedly intercept the Russians if the US Navy was so confident that the Russians were no threat? And why did the Washington Times impart that the “Kitty Hawk commanders were so unnerved by the aerial penetration they rotated squadrons on 24-hour alert and had planes routinely meet or intercept various aircraft?” Because in asymmetrical warfare, the very concept is to strike when the larger, more powerful enemy is least prepared. This is what the Japanese did when they attacked Pearl Harbor in the early morning hours on a Sunday. This is why the 1968 Tet holiday offensive was launched when the Army of the Republic of Vietnam was in a low state of readiness. But then, perhaps it would have been more sporting of the Russians to have called in first before launching their mock attack."
www.g2mil.com...
Originally posted by xmotex
In a no holds barred engagement the USN has significant technological and even more significant numerical advantages over any likely adversary.
That doesn't mean the USN is unbeatable however. Good tactics or a technological ace in the hole can overcome otherwise superior forces.
I am less concerned about the AShCM threat - that's a threat the USN has been focused on preparing for since the 60's. Even the SSK threat, while harder to counter effectively, is something the USN has spent a lot of time and money training against.
" It is well known that senior US Navy officers have a tradition of omitting information about the Navy’s weaknesses and deficiencies during public testimony. For example, in the early 1980s, wrote Scammell, Navy officers
tried to conceal the shortcomings of the new Aegis system by using unrealistically easy operational tests, then by classifying the poor results: “An amalgam of sophisticated seaborne radar, computers, and surface-to-air rockets ten years in development, Aegis was built to simultaneously track up to two hundred aerial targets and to control thirty killer missiles. But in sea tests against sixteen easy targets – easy because they were lobbed in one after another instead of all at the same time, as they would arrive in combat – the supershield missed all but five…” Consequently, “The results of the sea trials were immediately classified, ostensibly for reasons of national
security, and it was announced that the tests had been successful. When Congressional overseers eventually learned they had been duped –a gain because not everyone in the fiasco interpreted ‘patriotic duty’ as ‘staying silent’—the Aegis program was very nearly scuttled.” According to Representative Denny Smith, a Republican from Oregon and former F-4 fighter pilot, Navy officers deliberately deleted key passages from their initial test reports on the Aegis system to keep him in the dark on its failings.
www.g2mil.com...
but how well is it going to cope with 50-100 IRBM's screaming towards the bird farm at Mach OMFG?
Originally posted by Stratrf_Rus
My two cents:
First: The article is long and dragged out with little substance and mostly rhetoric.
The rhetorician starts his claim that the US success in the Pacific was mostly due to Japanese stupidity. This is ignorance.
The US success was well planning and marvelous tactics.
The Japanese used marvelous tactics as well;
not only Kamikazes but the Japanese were superb at night battles, which the US was poor in this department.
I think the claim that the US was "lucky" is an ignorant one at best.
Second: The article seems to draw erroneous conclusions. It is my belief that the US emphasis on Carriers, although clearly has a Naval role, is not for Naval purposes.
The mere concept of a Battle group shows that the Carrier is seen as an inferior ship needing layers of protection by numerous ships. As opposed to WW2 where Carriers often travelled in packs of Carriers..
.and were used to shield Destroyers which were used for amphibious assaults and sub hunting...the Carriers were almost autonomous and were the most significant ship in the Navy during WW2.
However; it seems clear that the Navy lost hope in Carriers and their vulnerability to smart weapons. Again Destroyers and Cruisers and Submarines are the Kings of battle on the Seas.
This is why the Aegis class ships are the Flag ship of choice for most American Admirals.
This is why the world's navies largely ignore Carriers.
It's because of Carriers' significant contribution to projection of power to a nation (i.e. a floating air force capable usually of obtaining air superiority in a region where the USAF is not) that they still exist; and the abundance of US dollars.
Other nations with less funding have no longer bothered with the Carrier and this does not make them weaker.
This is probably an example of some US policy makers and the US public's belief their Navy is godly ... the US Carrier.
But tactics have changed and the US Navy is not oblivious; war games against the Soviet Navy taught much about how modern Naval warfare would be.
Battle Groups work well together to provide good air-defense and good missile defense etc. while being able to effectively project force.
Tactics are still good; and the addition of anti-sub warfare and what-not eliminates the stupid idea that a Diesel submarine would have much chance at all against any well equipped and prepared Navy.
Prepared is an important word; because the British Navy, while well equipped, was poorly prepared in the Falkand's war. Each Naval loss they incurred was mostly due to bad management practices; or occurred during the riskiest part of the mission...scouting.
The battle groups were almost entirely unaffected and the British Navy destroyed or forced capitulation from the Argentinian Navy rather swiftly; most of the damage incurred was by Argentinian land-based Air forces.That's my two cents:
The article needs to focus on real modern warfare and not perceived modern warfare which is built on by past experiences.
Originally posted by Zaphod58
The Soviet sub fleet in 1980 was a joke.
Their boats were noisy, short legged, and had a horrifying maintenance record.
And their crews weren't nearly as well trained as US and other country sub crews were.
Yeah they had almost 500 subs, but unless you're trying to overwhelm with quantity, if you don't have QUALITY subs, then having 500 of them isn't gonna get you very far.
I'd love to see the record of how MANY of those 480 could put to sea in working condition at any given time as well.
Originally posted by JamesinOz
Stellar, only 6 Exocets? That's very disturbing. Apparently Iran has hundreds of them.
The Straits of Malacca imo will be critical as basically the entire Chinese, Japanese and Australian oil supply comes through this narrow waterway. If China wanted to cripple Japans economy it may attempt to blockade this energy supply route first. As well, China is building a naval base in Burma, close to the entrance of the Straits of Malacca. Elements of the Russian Pacific Fleet may also become involved in any such future naval engagement in SE Asian waters.
If sea traffic was unable to get through the Straits of Malacca it would be forced to divert around the Indonesian Archipeligo, thus bringing a massive amount of merchant traffic into Aussie waters. Fortunately, one of America's largest sub bases in the world outside of the States is located on Australia's West coast a few days sail South of Indonesia, which will no doubt come in handy (as it did in WW2 when a huge secret American sub base was located in the same area).
The Aussie Kokums Collins class subs are fine boats, however they've been plagued by numerous problems resulting from their construction in Australia which imo lacks the technical expertise to build such boats. Most of these problems have been resolved, at enormous taxpayer expense, so one would hope they'd be fully operational before any large scale naval engagement occurs in the region. It would've been far easier to allow Kokums to build these subs lock, stock and barrel and deliver them working properly and in one piece to the Aussie navy.
I'd imagine there'd be a combination of LA Class attack subs and Aussie Kokums Collins class diesel subs running patrols throughout the Indonesion Archipeligo in any major future naval engagement with Chinese and possibly Russian naval forces. The continuation of the supply of energy to Australia, China and Japan would rest on the outcome of any such naval engagement in the region and thus be decisive in any future global conflict.
[edit on 19-3-2006 by JamesinOz]
Originally posted by JamesinOz
Stellar, only 6 Exocets? That's very disturbing. Apparently Iran has hundreds of them.
The pilots of the 2d Escuadrilla, trained in France in 1980–81, were fully qualified with the aircraft. However, at the time the conflict in the Falklands began, only five of the Super Etendards and five Exocet missiles had been delivered from France. The Common Market nations and NATO immediately initiated an arms embargo on Argentina, therefore halting the French shipments of planes and missiles. Throughout the conflict, the Argentine government tried desperately but unsuccessfully to obtain more Exocets on the world market. Argentina would have to fight the war with only five Etendards and Exocet missiles. Since spare parts for the Etendards were cut off by the NATO arms embargo, the FAA decided to hold one of the five fighters in reserve and use it for parts to support the remaining four aircraft.
www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil...
The Straits of Malacca imo will be critical as basically the entire Chinese, Japanese and Australian oil supply comes through this narrow waterway. If China wanted to cripple Japans economy it may attempt to blockade this energy supply route first.
As well, China is building a naval base in Burma, close to the entrance of the Straits of Malacca. Elements of the Russian Pacific Fleet may also become involved in any such future naval engagement in SE Asian waters.
If sea traffic was unable to get through the Straits of Malacca it would be forced to divert around the Indonesian Archipeligo, thus bringing a massive amount of merchant traffic into Aussie waters. Fortunately, one of America's largest sub bases in the world outside of the States is located on Australia's West coast a few days sail South of Indonesia, which will no doubt come in handy (as it did in WW2 when a huge secret American sub base was located in the same area).
The Aussie Kokums Collins class subs are fine boats, however they've been plagued by numerous problems resulting from their construction in Australia which imo lacks the technical expertise to build such boats.
Most of these problems have been resolved, at enormous taxpayer expense, so one would hope they'd be fully operational before any large scale naval engagement occurs in the region. It would've been far easier to allow Kokums to build these subs lock, stock and barrel and deliver them working properly and in one piece to the Aussie navy.
I'd imagine there'd be a combination of LA Class attack subs and Aussie Kokums Collins class diesel subs running patrols throughout the Indonesion Archipeligo in any major future naval engagement with Chinese and possibly Russian naval forces.
The continuation of the supply of energy to Australia, China and Japan would rest on the outcome of any such naval engagement in the region and thus be decisive in any future global conflict.