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A world without exclusive religions: Can we do it?

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posted on Mar, 18 2006 @ 05:06 AM
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I think it was a great discussion and the points posted do make a lot of sense from your perspective. I think ill give the points a bit of a thought and if i have anything to discuss shall post it on...

Fantastic outcome of the discussion is what i persive and thankyou for your thoughts.

Cheers




posted on Mar, 18 2006 @ 01:49 PM
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Originally posted by knowledge23
Can I ask those who are interested and this is to start the discussion again,

From a Christians point of view.


What is religion?

From Dictionary.com
re·li·gion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.

Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.



What does it stand for?

A belief system or anything that you do with zeal or conscientious devotion such as following or playing sports religously.


What areas does religion cover?

See above.


What are the pros and cons of following the religion that one believes?

It depends on the religion. I can pretty much guarantee that a religion is not followed unless one gets something out of it such as a sense of belonging or feelings of being right in the world. The cons would be those that use religion to push their own agenda.


What gains do I as an individual gain from following a religion or God? [though i think i have mentioned a fair bit on this]

Both of my parents passed away last month, 13 days of each other. They (as myself) were Christians. They died peacefully KNOWING what awaited them. You may say that they couldn't possibly know, but their faith was so strong that it was nothing short of KNOWING. My faith inturn, is just as strong and rather than grieving, I am comforted by the same KNOWLEDGE.


Would I be immoral if I did not follow a religion or did not believe in God?

Immoral? I do not pass judgement on any person, perhaps that is a question you should pose to God.


Will I go to Heaven or Hell for not following God/Satan?


(KJV)Romans 3:23:

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Passage Romans 6:23:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

According to the Bible, yes. But if you don't believe the Bible, then nothing I say can convince you. These are questions that you have to seek answers for yourself.

As I said, this is from a Christians piont of view. I do not judge, but am happy to use scripture to answer questions reguarding what a Christian believes. As for myself, I find great comfort in my spirituality. The loss of my parents is a tremendous loss for many, not only myself. But I rejoice in their passing as they are in a much better place and I KNOW that I will see them again. Pehaps soon if Christ does not tarry.

My Mom
My Dad



posted on Mar, 18 2006 @ 02:25 PM
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(KJV)Romans 3:23:

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Passage Romans 6:23:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


No where in those two verses does it lead one to believe those who sin or don't follow Christ would go to hell.

"For the wages of sin is death" This does not in any way imply a fiery hell of eternal damnation.

Hell is a Christian concept taken from pagan belief's. As are a lot of Christian concepts. There is no hell in the old testament, and Jesus the apocalyptic guy that he was, was the one preaching about the eternal damnation of hell.

The definition of hell four centuries ago was to cover; conceal. The 21st century Christian definition of hell today is the ungodly eternal damnation.

The Christians have done so much to rewrite history and mistranslated the Judaistic religion they came from for their own purposes.

Does god send Satan to hell? No. Let's read Genesis 3:14-15



14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


God curses Satan in the same manner he curses both Adam and Eve. An eternal punishment for the sins they committed, but no where does it say God sentenced Satan to an eternal damnation in a fiery pit of hell.

God punish's Adam and Eve and their succesive generations for that first original sin (christian view only) and yet, he destroy's nearly and entire planet for sins commited. Why not kill Adam and Eve for their sins and start over if only he were just going to do that in the near future with Noah? (Noah read: Stolen Epics of Gilgamesh story by the ancient Summerians)



posted on Mar, 18 2006 @ 03:12 PM
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Originally posted by Produkt



(KJV)Romans 3:23:

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Passage Romans 6:23:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


No where in those two verses does it lead one to believe those who sin or don't follow Christ would go to hell.

"For the wages of sin is death" This does not in any way imply a fiery hell of eternal damnation.

Hell is a Christian concept taken from pagan belief's. As are a lot of Christian concepts. There is no hell in the old testament, and Jesus the apocalyptic guy that he was, was the one preaching about the eternal damnation of hell.

My appologies for not being more clear. I was focusing more on the eternal life part:

(KJV) John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


1 John 1: 8-9 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The eternal life is the opposite of eternal death. Death (spiritually) is the absence of God. Life (spiritually) is the presence of God.


The definition of hell four centuries ago was to cover; conceal. The 21st century Christian definition of hell today is the ungodly eternal damnation.

The Christians have done so much to rewrite history and mistranslated the Judaistic religion they came from for their own purposes.

Does god send Satan to hell? No. Let's read Genesis 3:14-15



14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


God curses Satan in the same manner he curses both Adam and Eve. An eternal punishment for the sins they committed, but no where does it say God sentenced Satan to an eternal damnation in a fiery pit of hell.

(KJV) Revelation 20:1-3 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

(JKV) Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

(JKV) Revelation 20:14-15 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Hell is cast into the lake of fire. Satan will also be cast there, but God has not done so yet.


God punish's Adam and Eve and their succesive generations for that first original sin (christian view only) and yet, he destroy's nearly and entire planet for sins commited. Why not kill Adam and Eve for their sins and start over if only he were just going to do that in the near future with Noah? (Noah read: Stolen Epics of Gilgamesh story by the ancient Summerians)


The earth was not destroyed in Noah's time for sin only. It was destroyed due to the issue of mutants from when the sons of God (fallen angels) mated with the daughter of man (humans) and produced hybrid demon/humans.

Genesis 6:1-8
And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

Noah found grace not only because he followed the ancient teachings of the true God, but because he was pure human. His bloodline had not been corrupted by the fallen angels.

If you wish to believe that the epic of Gilgamesh was the original, simply because it is the oldest written version, I will not tell you that you are wrong. I personally believe that the original was passed down word to mouth, and that the epic of Gilgamesh was stolen from the original story. That's what is nice about life is that we all get to choose what we believe. I choose to follow Christ.



posted on Mar, 18 2006 @ 03:54 PM
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If you wish to believe that the epic of Gilgamesh was the original, simply because it is the oldest written version, I will not tell you that you are wrong. I personally believe that the original was passed down word to mouth, and that the epic of Gilgamesh was stolen from the original story. That's what is nice about life is that we all get to choose what we believe. I choose to follow Christ.


It could be possible that the two are remembering the same flood, seeing as how that region back at that time was considered the whole world. So to them, the whole world was flooded and there is evidence for a major flood in that area, but not one of a world wide flood in the biblical sense. The Gilgamesh account is the earliest and closest account that we have around the time of the flood. The monotheistic Judaism religion of the Israelites aren't mentioned until 1210 BCE. This is around the time the Noah story gets told. If the dating of the flood is correct, that being 2350BCE, Gilgamesh's Epic would have been written 400 years after his reign. Whereas the Judaistic version wouldn't have been written for another 1140 some odd years. That's a long time to keep the story intact and in it's original form. Surely you've played telephone or know how it works? The chance's of Noah's story being more right compared to the Gilgamesh account are really slim. Revelation's is a Christian apocalyptic gospel and has no real bearing on that silly place called hell. The Christian concept of hell (Gehenna/Hinnom) was a garbage pit outside the walls of Jerusalem where fires were kept burning to consume the refuge and executed criminals or those denied proper burials would be dumped. See how the Christians changed thing's for their own purposes?

[edit on 18-3-2006 by Produkt]



posted on Mar, 18 2006 @ 06:04 PM
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Darkelf, great addition. I think I will agree to a large extend to the writing, merely because I am a believer in a Super Power [God] who does look upon us. That could be because the culture of religion was inculcated within me since my younger days. It is at times, tough to comprehend, however when as a boy, i used to read the words/or sing a song raising God, did i scarely realise the effect it causes within me.

The questions however were not for myself. It was an open format question, so sorry if I did made it sound that it was me asking the question. However, they were great answers and thankyou for the nice contribution.



posted on Mar, 19 2006 @ 11:50 AM
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Originally posted by Produkt
[The Christian concept of hell (Gehenna/Hinnom) was a garbage pit outside the walls of Jerusalem where fires were kept burning to consume the refuge and executed criminals or those denied proper burials would be dumped. See how the Christians changed thing's for their own purposes?


As far as hell goes, from the Hebrew (OT):


Strong's Number: 07585 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
lwaX from (07592)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Sh@'owl TWOT - 2303c
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
sheh-ole' Noun Feminine

Definition
sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit
the underworld
Sheol - the OT designation for the abode of the dead
place of no return
without praise of God
wicked sent there for punishment
righteous not abandoned to it
of the place of exile (fig)
of extreme degradation in sin


King James Word Usage - Total: 65
from Bible Crosswalk


and the Greek (NT):


The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 1067 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
gevenna of Hebrew origin (01516) and (02011)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Geenna 1:657,113
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
gheh'-en-nah Noun Feminine

Definition
Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom, south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and their future destruction.


King James Word Usage - Total: 12
from Bible Crosswalk



If there was no Greek work for hell as the Jews used the word, then the dump is certainly an adequate symbolic word to describe hell. Just as calling someone a potty mouth doesn't mean that they literally have a potty in place of their mouth.



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