It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

NEWS: Executive Order 13397 Homeland Security & Faith Based Education

page: 2
7
<< 1    3  4 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Mar, 14 2006 @ 10:46 AM
link   

Originally posted by DevinS
Who wants to bet against me that a good wholesome Christian that believes in killing gays, WOmen who get abortions, and arabs is a good thing? Who wants to bet that a Wiccan, Buddist, Islamic, or Jewish person will be appointed? No takers? Wonder why...


Ok, so, for you, the bad guy is :

a " good Christian ". And this so-called " good Christian is, of course, one who think it's good to kill gays, women who get abortion and arab.

And the good guys are : " Wiccan, Buddist, Islamic, or Jewish ".

As usual, the Christians are the bad ones and the oppressors. What a twisted mind it take to think like that.




posted on Mar, 14 2006 @ 11:00 AM
link   

Originally posted by ultra_phoenix

Originally posted by DevinS
Who wants to bet against me that a good wholesome Christian that believes in killing gays, WOmen who get abortions, and arabs is a good thing? Who wants to bet that a Wiccan, Buddist, Islamic, or Jewish person will be appointed? No takers? Wonder why...


Ok, so, for you, the bad guy is :

a " good Christian ". And this so-called " good Christian is, of course, one who think it's good to kill gays, women who get abortion and arab.

And the good guys are : " Wiccan, Buddist, Islamic, or Jewish ".

As usual, the Christians are the bad ones and the oppressors. What a twisted mind it take to think like that.


I think he was being scarcastic. A good Christian, one who truly follows the teachings of Jesus and not some preachers interpertation would be compassionate and understanding towards gays and women who get abortions and would respect followers of other religions. Dispite how they like to project themselves funnymentalists are not the absolute exemplers of Christian values they make themselves out to be, nor are Islamic or Jewish funnymentalists...they are extremists using their religions to promote their narrow world views...a true follower of any religion has a far more open heart than that...without compassion we are no better than our prejudices.



posted on Mar, 14 2006 @ 12:06 PM
link   

Originally posted by ultra_phoenix

Ok, so, for you, the bad guy is :

a " good Christian ". And this so-called " good Christian is, of course, one who think it's good to kill gays, women who get abortion and arab.

And the good guys are : " Wiccan, Buddist, Islamic, or Jewish ".



Don't get confused, you know what the Reconstructionist are? the call themselves the true Christians that will Reclaim American for Jesus this people think themselves the best true Christians in America and anybody that do not believe in their views of religion are not really Christians not matter if the god and the Jesus the follow is the same as yours, theirs is better.

Their agenda is make America a true Christian nation model to their views of what a Christian nation should be they are also called the The extremist chrisitans

Yes they are real alive and they live near your home.



posted on Mar, 14 2006 @ 12:34 PM
link   

Originally posted by ultra_phoenix
Ok, so, for you, the bad guy is :

a " good Christian ".


Yeah, I think you misunderstood DevinS's intent.

One of the biggest issues in religion today is the danger of grouping all of any religion (or any group, for that matter) into one stereotype. We see it happen a lot with Muslims and Jews and now Christians. Whenever a religion is used to commit evil, the religion (as a whole) gets a bad reputation and then we have prejudice.

It's important to remember that not all Christians are gay-haters, just as not all Muslims are terrorists and to watch our language when talking about them. (I know I've screwed up on this, it's not easy to remember to put "extremist" in there to separate them from the regular Christians or Muslims.)

Like marg said the reconstructionists are a dangerous group, just like the Muslim extremists.



posted on Mar, 14 2006 @ 12:42 PM
link   
Like I said, a good Christian who thinks the solution to gays and abortion is to kill the people who are gay or get abortions. I didn't say all Christians, although I doubt I would count as a good one even though I have been going to church for over 2 decades, have gone with the church to Dominicun Republic and other places like that to help build houses, churchs, hospitals, schools, help with farming, collect clean water, so forth. Why? Because I also like to go with science, not just faith, on things like science. ROund Earth, not center, more then 6,000 years old, things like that.

You know, good christians like Pat RObertson who prays to God on National TV to kill people, Edit: More from Patty Boy.
"[Gays seek] to destroy all Christians." - People for the American Way, "Hostile Climate," 1994, p.9.
“Since our nation was founded, we have discriminated against certain things. We discriminate against kidnappers. We discriminate against murderers. We discriminate against thieves...There are laws that prohibit that kind of conduct. And there have been laws since the founding of our country against what are considered unnatural sex acts, sex between members of the same sex.” - 700 Club, 12-24-93 (source: People for the American Way Foundation)
“It’s one thing to say, `We have rights to jobs...we have rights to be left alone in out little corner of the world to do our thing.’ It’s an entirely different thing to say, well, `We’re not only going to go into the schools and we’re going to take your children and your grandchildren
and turn them into homosexuals.’ Now that’s wrong.” - 700 Club, 9-17-92 (source: People for the American Way Foundation)
This kind of good Christian will be appointed.

But a good Christian will get appointed, because they believe the GOP mantra, of kill anyone who doesn't vote for us. Why do you think they make Arabs, Gays, Athiests, and anyone else who didn't vote for Bush out to be Evil Commie Terrorists? Because you can say on the news that you just rounded up 75 million Terrorists and executed them without looking bad. But you say you did that to US citizens, you get in trouble, but Terrorists? No problem, good job Bush, how yould you like to stay in office for another 4 decades? Maybe after all the vacation time you will have served 8 years as president.

Actual Quote

"'Unless we get medically lucky, in three or four years,
one of the options discussed will be the extermination of homosexuals."
Dr. Paul Cameron, a "scientist" often quoted by religious right groups, and Senators, like Bill Frist, I thought he was the first to say it but he was quoting this guy, so now I don't know if he meant it or what the context was of it, like "This guy is so insane he said 'quote' how nuts can you be?" or if he was praising the guy. As I don't have the context I will remove that part of my original post, until I can find the speech he said it in.

Now sure there are good christians out there like mwa who doesn't believe in that stuff, but this makes me a liberal, not a Republican, because gays vote democrat, so republicans hate them. Sad to label an entire group evil because they don't vote for you.

[edit on 14-3-2006 by DevinS]



posted on Mar, 14 2006 @ 12:50 PM
link   

Originally posted by DevinS


You know, good christians like Pat RObertson who prays to God on National TV to kill people, Bill Frist who says unless we get lucky medically in 3-4 years from now we may have to start executing the Gays.

Bill Frist said that? really? That missed my radar entirely...that sends chills up my spine and gives me one more reason not to vote for the Republicans (even when I agree with them) even for dog catcher. Really? He said that?



posted on Mar, 14 2006 @ 01:53 PM
link   
If Bill frist actually said that I would like to know when, where and in what context. Can you provide that?



posted on Mar, 14 2006 @ 02:22 PM
link   

Originally posted by DevinS
Who wants to bet against me that a good wholesome Christian that believes in killing gays, WOmen who get abortions, and arabs is a good thing? Who wants to bet that a Wiccan, Buddist, Islamic, or Jewish person will be appointed? No takers? Wonder why...


What nonsense. I am a Christian and i do not believe in killing homosexual perverts anymore than i believe in killing fornicators, i do not believe in killing women who get abortions, though i believe that the murder of unborn children should be illegal and a crime, and i certainly do not believe in killing arabs - a great many arabs are Christian, and even if none of them were - i do not desire to kill them. In fact - i believe that the war in Iraq is an unjust, illegal, and immoral war brought about by a mass muderering anti-christ named George W. Bush. (note - i did not say that Bush was THE anti-christ - just an antichrist.)

Now regarding the others that you seem to hold in high esteem - lets look at them.

Wiccans - a pagan religion that supposedly has its roots in druidism. The druids practiced child sacrifice and other forms of human sacrifice - this is unquestioned by any serious anthropologist.

Buddhism - a pagan religion in which its practitioners are among the most violent in the world. During the vietnam war era - the buddhists were engaged in a horrible war with christianity - a great many lit themselves on fire in the streets of veitnam to protest the then Catholic government.

Islam - a heresy of Catholicism that openly teaches conversion by the sword, that teaches a sexual afterlife and devalues women in the highest order possible.

Judaism - a satanic religion that has and still seeks to destroy Christianity through lies and conspiracy. From the time of Christ to this very day - this religion seeks to destroy the image of Christ on earth. This religion has engaged in horrible ritual murders throughout history and seeks only after wordly gains. (a fine example of jewish ritual murder is little St. Simon of Trent).


Soooo - given the choices by this poster - i think i would choose someone like St. Francis of Assisi - an extremely wealthy and good looking prominent young man, who gave up everything to live in poverty and care for the lepars and others that were cast out of society - and he did it all for the love of Christ.

But, St. Francis of Assisi would have nothing to do with a satanic skull and bone member like George W. Bush - so whoever you get - you can bet will not be good.



posted on Mar, 14 2006 @ 02:27 PM
link   
oh - here is an excellent link to what kind of bogus "chrisitian" Pat Robertson is - not to mention his constant support of the illegal and immoral state of Israel.

www.prisonplanet.com...



posted on Mar, 14 2006 @ 02:38 PM
link   
onesharpbroadhead

I hope that the information you just posted is just a satirical view of the religious denominations you mention.

Because truly is either that or you are one of the worst misinformed person I have seen so far.

I hope is the first one rather than the second one.



posted on Mar, 14 2006 @ 02:45 PM
link   

Originally posted by onesharpbroadhead

Originally posted by DevinS
Who wants to bet against me that a good wholesome Christian that believes in killing gays, WOmen who get abortions, and arabs is a good thing? Who wants to bet that a Wiccan, Buddist, Islamic, or Jewish person will be appointed? No takers? Wonder why...


What nonsense. I am a Christian and i do not believe in killing homosexual perverts anymore than i believe in killing fornicators, i do not believe in killing women who get abortions, though i believe that the murder of unborn children should be illegal and a crime, and i certainly do not believe in killing arabs - a great many arabs are Christian, and even if none of them were - i do not desire to kill them. In fact - i believe that the war in Iraq is an unjust, illegal, and immoral war brought about by a mass muderering anti-christ named George W. Bush. (note - i did not say that Bush was THE anti-christ - just an antichrist.)

Now regarding the others that you seem to hold in high esteem - lets look at them.

Wiccans - a pagan religion that supposedly has its roots in druidism. The druids practiced child sacrifice and other forms of human sacrifice - this is unquestioned by any serious anthropologist.

Buddhism - a pagan religion in which its practitioners are among the most violent in the world. During the vietnam war era - the buddhists were engaged in a horrible war with christianity - a great many lit themselves on fire in the streets of veitnam to protest the then Catholic government.

Islam - a heresy of Catholicism that openly teaches conversion by the sword, that teaches a sexual afterlife and devalues women in the highest order possible.

Judaism - a satanic religion that has and still seeks to destroy Christianity through lies and conspiracy. From the time of Christ to this very day - this religion seeks to destroy the image of Christ on earth. This religion has engaged in horrible ritual murders throughout history and seeks only after wordly gains. (a fine example of jewish ritual murder is little St. Simon of Trent).


Soooo - given the choices by this poster - i think i would choose someone like St. Francis of Assisi - an extremely wealthy and good looking prominent young man, who gave up everything to live in poverty and care for the lepars and others that were cast out of society - and he did it all for the love of Christ.

But, St. Francis of Assisi would have nothing to do with a satanic skull and bone member like George W. Bush - so whoever you get - you can bet will not be good.



This last post is absolutely appalling and in its bigoted judgementalism as far from the teachings of Jesus, the ultimate benchmark of what it means to be a Christian, that I have seen in the time I have been posting here. Note by note here goes:

(1) Homosexual perverts...doesn't even consider for a moment that they might be as God or nature made them...immediately passes a value judgement on them with any show of compassion...remember Jesus said Judge not lest ye be judged.

(2) Modern Wicca has its roots in the 50's in what was thought to be celtic nature religions and is an attempt to find a way to worship without the sexism and judgementalism that has become so prevelent in many Christian congregations...I know many wiccans and they are for the most part harmless and often rather silly, but are in no way how this poster portrays them.

(3) Buddhism, by their own defination is not a religion and does not even discuss the notions of Divinity, though some of its sects do. It is a series of practices designed to bring about a quietitude of mind and inner peace. I remember those Buddhists setting themselves on fire, protesting not the Catholic government, but the Vietnamese war itself. I9 wonder if the arthur of this tirad would have the cojones to chose to die as they did in protest of what they felt was a profound wrong.

(4) Islam is not a catholic heresy...In Arabia, Judaism was far more prevlant than Christianity at the time of Muhammad and the version of Christianity in that part of the world was Greek Orthodox. As for spreading its teachings by the sword, Muhammad's teachings in the Quarn was quite explict, such practices against other people of the book (Christians and Jews) was explicitly forbidden, the exception being unrepentant pagans. As for a sexual afterlife, God I hope so eternity without sex is well....an eternity
and as for their treatment of women... most of the most egregious practices in the Islamic world are in fact pre-Islamic in origin, in fact Muhammad greatly improved the status of women throughout the Quran.

(5) As for your comments on Judasim...they are bigoted and ignorant and more at home in the middle ages or Nazi Germany than anything else you have written. Ritual murder has been a boogie man used against the Jews for centuries and it was obscene then and it is obscene now. You should be ashamed of yourself for spouting such ignorance.

If your tirads are what it means to be a Christian...then I renounce it. Fortunately I know what Jesus taught, obviously you do not.



posted on Mar, 14 2006 @ 03:16 PM
link   
Hmmm - lets see what Jesus taught - What does scripture say about these things:

Homosexuality:

1. Corininthians 6: 9-10: "Know you not that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: Neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers: 10 Nor the effeminite nor liers with mankind nor thieves nor covetous nor drunkards nor railers nor extortioners shall possess the kingdom of God."

Witchraft (Wicca):

1 Samuel 15:23:
"Because it is like the sin of witchcraft, to rebel: and like the crime of idolatry, to refuse to obey. Forasmuch, therefore, as thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, the Lord hath also rejected thee from being king."

Buddhism, Islam, Judaism:

John 14:6:
"Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me."

Matthew 10:33:
"But he that shall deny me before men, I will also deny him before my Father who is in heaven."

1 John 2:22
"Who is a liar, but he who denieth that Jesus is the Christ? This is Antichrist, who denieth the Father and the Son."

Revelations 2:9:
"I know thy tribulation and thy poverty: but thou art rich. And thou art blasphemed by them that say they are Jews and are not, but are thesynagogue of satan"

1 Thessalonians 2: 14-16:
"For you, brethren, are become followers of the churches of God which are in Judea, in Christ Jesus: for you also have suffered the same things from your own countrymen, even as they have from the Jews: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and the prophets, and have persecuted us, and please not God, and are adversaries to all men; 16 Prohibiting us to speak to the Gentiles, that they may be saved, to fill up their sins always: for the wrath of God is come upon them to the end."



Jesus was much hated for telling the truth too.
In fact they hated Him so much that they murdered Him.



posted on Mar, 14 2006 @ 03:22 PM
link   
The heart of Jesus' teaching is compassion...without compassion we are no better than our prejudices.



posted on Mar, 14 2006 @ 03:54 PM
link   
agreed - Jesus had and has much compassion for REPENTENT sinners.

But Jesus also had and has no tolerance for lies, false religions, and unrepentent sinners.

I am not prejudice against any race or person - but i am prejudice against false religions and will never defend them.

One can hate the religion of Islam and not hate the arab who practices it. One can hate the religion of wicca, but not hate the wiccan. One can hate the religion of Judaism and not hate the person that follows it, etc...

Kind of the love the sinner but hate the sin thing.



posted on Mar, 14 2006 @ 04:00 PM
link   
anyhow - back to the topic at hand.

I never supported this idea of government vouchers for religious, private, or homeschooling - why?

Because it is an avenue for governmental control of these types of education.

Once they get these schools dependent on the government vouchers - then it will be - well - if you don't teach this or that - we won't give the vouchers - or "if you accept federal aid - you have to teach according to federal guidelines", etc...

It is just an avenue to jam sex ed, evolution, and distorted history down the throats of everyone!



posted on Mar, 14 2006 @ 04:24 PM
link   
Isn't it nice that we can all believe something different, even within the christian religions you can find a wide assortment of diverse beliefs and cultures.

so, how many christians would like for the government to step in and say, well, you don't belief that homosexuals deserve to die, you have on working for you blah, blah....

or, gee, you let your wife run wild, we can't have that!!

or, umm, we're sorry, but you were babtized in the wrong way, until you are babtized according to our sactioned method, well, you are not a christian!!

this is what the separation of church and state has given us. we get to follow what WE beleive about God and we don't have those beliefs dictated to us by preist or state, or worse, the two working together.

I am starting to get the feeling that this freedom might be in danger.



posted on Mar, 14 2006 @ 04:44 PM
link   
dawnstar - you are right - the minute that the government starts telling people what they have to believe - is the minute that we have lost all our freedom.

So when you see schools being forced to teach the humanistic theory of evolution and not even being allowed to present the other side - or even say that evolution is a theory and might be wrong - we have lost a freedom and have a state sponsered religion being taught.

When you see people being thrown in jail or deported because they deny the official version of the holocaust - you know that freedom of thought is gone.

The above applies just as much as the Church of England demanding that everyone be a member of it!

The seperation of church and state can also be totally missunderstood and willfully missapplied too - the Constitution (which to most people on both the left and right is nothing but a piece of toliet paper) prohibits the state from forming a state mandated religion - it does not prevent the public display of religious belief.

In most things virtue lies in the middle.

The extreme of wanting the government to run the church (which is what we are coming to now) is just as bad as the extreme of not allowing God to be mentioned in the pledge or not allowing a Nativity Scene on public property - or worse yet - not saying "merry Christmas", etc...


The duty of the governement should be to protect the individual right to believe whatever he/she wishes - even if it is something crazy and stupid to others.

What do I care of someone wants to deny the Holocaust or if someone says the earth is flat, or if someone says that we are the descendants of space aliens, or if someone says that Allah is God, or if someone says that Jesus is God, or if someone says that only bible believing fundamentalists are right and go to heaven.

I have my views on which of the above are true and which are false - and i should have every right to express those beliefs and even try to convince others of them - but the government has no right to force any belief down someones throat.

Now this is not to say that there should be anarchy either - all laws are based on morality - so the theory that one cannot legislate morality is absurd.

ie: - some religions believed, or perhaps still believe in human sacrifice - and that is just too bad - in our society we have legislated that human sacrifice is immoral and will not be legal.

some religions use illegal drugs to find their gods or inner peace - and that is just too bad - we have legislated that these drugs are illegal.

some religions teach that it is ok to have more than one wife - and that is just too bad - we have legislated that one can only have one spouse


so the idea that we cannot legislate that abortion should be illegal - or that homosexual "marriage" should be illegal - does not hold water.

anyhow - thats my story and i am sticking to it



posted on Mar, 14 2006 @ 05:15 PM
link   
but, can you justify any of these stands without bringing your religious beliefs into the picture? we managed to do that with in some cases, laws were passed maybe not so much because any particular religion said so, but rather people saw logical common sense in them. as far as people being able to talk to others about their beliefs, ummm....seems people can do that, can't they? my son says thata day doeswn't go be without a few people trying to "save" him on the base he's stationed at.

and I just love the gripe about the school prayer bit.....on 9/11 when those planes flew into the twin towers, ummm....I was at work, and guess what....I was paying nonstop, while I worked for the people in those towers. no one knew a danged thing about it though... so, I guess, what the gripe is about is that our children should be led in a prayer every morning?? since, well, I know for a fact anyone can pray anytime, and well, this does seem to be the preferred method if one is to accept what Jesus says...
well, you can pray anytime, but do you have the right to force (or coerce) anyone else into joining in that prayer? same goes for the pledge. as far as the christmas tree bit, well, old habit don't die too easily, it was a christmas tree when I was born, it will be one when I die, and well, if people don't like it, I guess they can just call me a crazy old lady or whatever they like!

In other words, I think most of the griping is over trivial, meaningless crap!!

there's someone on these boards that gripes time to time about the churchgroups chosing to ignore the signs on his door about no soliciting and stating the fact that he's a day sleeper. I'm sorry but I don't think that your right to share your beliefs with others trumps his NEED for sleep either.

evolution has managed to gain the label of scientific theory, it's a label it's had for over 30 years I believe, since it was taught when I was in school.....
other things have that label too, such as gravity. I believe much of science is based on theories, isn't it. shall we just throw them all out the window and stop teaching science......we can just depend on our superstitious inclinations to guide us through this century.

and......ummm.....is it illegal in the US to deny that the halocaust occured? I wasn't aware of this one. I thought people could be as stupid as they wanted....

by the way, I think you might be able to add our president to that list of people who think our constitution is as worthless as a used up peice of toilet paper too....

[edit on 14-3-2006 by dawnstar]



posted on Mar, 14 2006 @ 05:16 PM
link   

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Regardless of what you think of it, this does not violate anything of the constitution.
"Faith Based" does not specify any one particular Christian denomination (sect, if you want to use the word hey used in the discussions of this topic back in the beginning days of the country) over the other. Although not what was intended for this nation, "faith based" now encompasses other entirely separate religions besides the Judeo-Christian belief system.


Thomas, you are mistaken. The Constitution's Establishment Clause prohibits this completely. Further, your point that "Faith Based" "doesn't specifiy any one particular Christian denomination" proves the point.

I get a chill when I remember that our President talks to an invisible man in the sky, and gets policy tips from an imaginary being. I don't mock faith, but I totally mock a man who governs a superpower using an obscurantist belief and errant interpretation of Scripture. I wonder if you understand just how antithetical Religion and Government are. Christianity for example, makes some specific demands on the faithful that go directly against what governments want. If I am a faithful Christian, and a person in need comes to my door, I am bound by my faith to help that person. If that person happens to be an illegal immigrant, I am forbidden from helping him. Christ didn't mention anything about only helping people with Green Cards. This is only one of many paradoxical situations you can get in if you try to mix religion and government. I've given this issue a lot of thought, and just about every religion on earth specifically warns believers against mixing religion and politics or government. I've spoken to friends who teach at a theological seminary near my house and they've agreed. One friend pointed out that the only religion that tries to bring faith and government together is Confucianism.

Let's be real for a second. George Bush and the GOP since Ronald Reagan have used Christianity to appeal to the most reactionary portion of the American population. Before this, abortion, faith-based social programs and prayer in school wasn't even on the GOP's radar. It's been a brilliant strategy, but finally, the honest Christians are catching on. See, for example, the recent statements by Evangelical Environmentalists (google those words) and the resultant attacks from the Bushists. Or the fact that the American Council of Churches has come out against the War in Iraq. Or the way the GOP conveniently ignored Pope John Paul's insistence on the immorality of the War in Iraq and the Death Penalty. The Christians who aren't totally reactionary are figuring out that they've been used, and that's reflected in the plummeting numbers in all of the approval ratings polls in the last 18 months. You can point to one poll or another and say "that's phoney", but now every single poll from Republican or Democratic pollsters shows George Bush as having less than 40% approval. The vast majority of polls shows him closer to 35%, with more than 60% saying the War in Iraq was a mistake and fully 37% who believe the President should be impeached. At the height of Clinton's problems, only 16% thought he should be impeached.

The shift in America has begun. Most Americans are tired of the cynical way they've been manipulated by politicians of both parties. At long last, Americans are realizing that in the last 5 years, things have gotten nothing but worse... much worse.

We were lied to about the War in Iraq, lied to about spying, about the Ports, about the manipulation of intelligence, about Katrina. Christians are starting to realize that there's a vast disconnect between what we read in the New Testament and what's going on in the Bush Administration. It's a painful Revelation for those who believed that these blow-dried hypocrites were going to take them to the promised land, but trust me when I say judgement day is coming this November.



posted on Mar, 14 2006 @ 05:25 PM
link   
and let's not forget, it seems that there are many, many laws that are being passed by various legislatures since these "compassionate conservatives" have gotten a foothold in our government appearantly trying to place some types of limits on abortion...
but, well, many of them have such a gross flaw in them that it's inconcievable that it wasn't put there intentionally. For any abortion law to be constitutional, there has to be a clause in it protecting the mother's health!!

they leave it out, the law gets shot down by the supreme court...go figure, what does this tell ya?

maybe these "compassionate conservatives" don't want the hassle of being compassionate enough to give out of their bank vaults to help these little ones live in our world.....they would rather they not be born too!



new topics

top topics



 
7
<< 1    3  4 >>

log in

join