Warpspeed, we already know this, this isnt the point. Youre preaching to the chior here.

The question of this topic is, does Americad to collapse for its own good and to save itself from becoming totally enslaved to everyone, becomeing nothing, ect?

My answer is yes. We need collapse to save ourselves not only from foreign diplomatic and military and econmic domination, but from our own evil leaders. This system has gone too far from its orginial intent, it has become perverted and twsited, a Buerocratic nightmare.

Thus, the question isnt Iraq or oil. The question is the welfare and benefit of the future of America. My answer is yes, we need collapse, and we need it soon while we can still weaken our enemies quick enough and start from scratch.

Somehow I don't think it would help that much. With chaos and anarchy across the US, I would think our systems of protection (police and military) would be so stressed that terrorists ( or anyone with a grudge against the US ) could walk across the borders relatively easily and pick targets at their leisure.

Also, just how would we "bring it all down"? An armed assault on the capitol? Thats not very likely to happen, and even if it was, do you really think it would work?

Youre wrong.

The US collapse wills end shockwaves across the world, there wont be enough time for anyonme to even think of launching terror attacks. with the collapse of the US, terrorists not only will be hard pressed getting over here (as flights to the us will probably drop off) but when they get here, what are they gonna bomb? What are they gonna do? You cant attack chaos! if they dont get randomly blown away themselves, they will be lucky to attack something that already hasnt been burnt to the ground.

Int he event of a civil war, yeah, the capitol would probably get greased. And it could be done. Remeber, youre trusting the military to defend it.

A collapse in America is mainly going to effect Americans. remember the Asian Collapse, and that ass hole Clinton was on TV smiling and saying "its only a little bump in the road". A lot of Asians lost their life savings back then. Meanwhile, Wall Street continued to soar, and the average American felt pretty good about it too.

A lot of other countries that have already had their collapse are going to laugh themselves silly at the US problem. I cannot imagine anyone in Mexico, Argentina, Russia, Malaysia, North Korea, Indonesia, or the Middle East, being too concerned about it.

The Chinese are extremely happy at the moment, the standard of living for the average Chinese has improved out of sight over the last ten years, and will continue to do so in the future.

The economic horror story in Japan continues, but there is so far no evidence of revolt or anarchy. It is a cultural thing really. On the other hand, I believe Americans are going to go absolutely nuts when they realise the good days are over.

First of all, warpspeed, Japan did not face economic collapse.; They had difficulties, but thier economy remains intact.

Second of all, it would, as I have stated on other threads. While the US wasnt efefcted much because we export relativly little to Japan, the US IMPORTS ALOT of #. When you think of what percent of many coutnries GNP are exported to the US, you will see the US is a cash cow, period. Collpase and destroy the economy utterly, and no one here will be able to buy anything. Imports wills top period. How can you export to a country that cant buy anything? So, with an entire US market lost, where are foreign companies gonna sell thier excess too? Thier production will drop, because the US has traditionally been the worlds glutton for imports. The imports stop, production goes way down, investment here stops, where they gonna sell to next?

Of course if the US economy collapse Americans will go nuts, what do you think Ive been ranting and screaming about? Thats what I am HOPING for. because to get rid of the system, Americans have to get riled up and go ape#, and the onyl way youre gonna do that is pull the lazy boy from under thier fat asses and disconnect the TV! Then they will go nuts, then were talking things will get ugly.

But in the long run, well be better for it.

With the US gone as a consumer, because we consume far more from improts than anyone else in the world, other nations WILL feel the bite and will get bit HARD.

Quite right, about Japan. It has not actually collapsed yet, but there is nothing to get terribly optimistic about either.

I also agree with you about the total apathy of the average worker/consumer. It is pretty similar here in Australia, but not quite as extreme (yet). What is going to really hurt is the massive debt implosion, and the domino effect it will create.

We (Australia) export very little to the US, mainly because of the strong farm lobby, and US tariff protection, particularly steel. We import a lot of US based technology though, but the actual merchandise itself is manufactured outside the US. A very strange situation indeed.

The US is only a very small part of the world population, so there will always be a market somewhere, but only if the price is right. That is the real problem, Japan and America have priced themselves out of the world market as far as labor costs go. A massive drop in living standard in the US and Japan is required to put this right. And it is going to hurt real bad.

Indonesia just to our north has a population of 207 million Muslims, so North America does not really look that large to us over here, on a world scale.

[Edited on 16-10-2003 by Warpspeed]

Ah, but warpspeed, it comes down to the consumer.

Americans per capita have more money in thier pockets to spend, and with credit so easily available, how many other nations do you have that have people who buy 3 or 4 tvs for thier house, dvd players, and guzzle as much gas as we do? None, really.

In order to have a large market, you must have people who have money to burn, money to spend, both businesses and the average consumer. With our light taxes and availability of credit, Americans are shop aholic greedy consuming freaks. We are the biggest consumer of Chinese products. What do you think will happen to China if the US can no longer buy its products? We imort a #load from Japan. WE BUY. Youre right, I dont see a whole hell of alot of stuff from Australia. But I DO see just about everything I buy made elsewhere. Mexico, Europe, Indone4sia, Singaopre, ect.

We are the major trading partner for ALOT of countries around the globe. In order to replace us, they would have to find a population as greedy, rich and materialistic as we are.

The average indonesian is lucky if they can afford a TV, let alone 3 of them. Thus, thats not much. You need a population that can buy and buy alot of products. Americans can. We all own our own cars. Most of us have TVs, Computers, satl;ite dishes, cellphones. We have alot of clothing. Most of the world doesnt come anywhere near this. Not even Europe, where the standard of living is higher. This is mainly because of the huge amount of taxes the average worker pays in europe, and the cost of everything over there is considerably higher. I learned this in Germany. German houses are alot less overstuffed with trinkets and tech toys than the average American house. Its because we are just piggy gluttons. And many economies depend on this.

And yes, the apathy of the average American being concerned with thier foreign toys is the biggest threat to the country.

This is why I support the collapse. remove thier toys and cushons and throw them into the cold hard world. They will no longer have distractions, and with all that time on thier hands.....

They will go insane. The exact thing I am hoping and praying for, because we cant continue on this suicide course were on.

Again I have to agree, the American market for consumer rubbish is absolutely huge, but that is about to end pretty quickly when the credit dries up.

But while America is in economic decline, the third world countries have been building up their manufacturing and technology bases, and their internal economies will begin to prosper. China will go this way, it will gradually evolve from a bicycle economy, to a motorcycle economy, then the car industry will eventually start up.

China has already been given the impetus to start up by attracting overseas technology and investment, it probably has now reached the self sustaining stage, or is pretty close to it. It can probably continue to grow without the significant assistance it required to get started.

I recently read that American entrepreneurs are now buying bankrupt American factories lock stock and barrel for peanuts. Loading all the machinery into containers and shipping the whole lot to China. They can then start up at almost zero cost because there is very little government red tape and regulation over there.

There will always be demand, it will come from countries other than the US in future. America will be like Argentina, a country with immense natural resources ruined by the greed and corruption.

Although the market in America is a rich one, I bet 1.5 billion Chinese with a growing disposable income are going to want to buy some of the luxury items. So the whole economic thing will feed on itself.

I am not Asian, but the Asians are a very patient, frugal, hard working and intelligent race. In fact all the things we westerners no longer are.

The way I see it, the USSR destroyed itself with the communist experiment. USA is destroying itself with decadence, and China will become the new world superpower. They will have the economic and military muscle America had during WW2.

Originally posted by Fry2
I was waiting for another member to start this but I guess it won't happen so here it is.

The theory is that America needs a complete financial breakdown to remove those in power and start from scratch. The OPEC switching to the Euro currency theory would be the quickest way to this end but would it really change the VERY rich and powerful, or just the rest of us?
My belief is that if the american dollar were to plummet to nothingness, the entire world is going to suffer and the ones truly controlling EVERYTHING will come out un-scathed.
Any thoughts?

HMMMM....... Really interesting, I've always figured America would stand, but that's probably because that's where I live but now that I think of it.... America does need to fall in order for the NWO to start.... interesting points. A
s Spock would say: "Fascinating."

In history a democrcy (pure) has never fallen from an external force. It has only been rotted through with corruption from the inside. And America is nearing the crescendo of that corruption. And thats when everybody will realize that NWO has been rising under the publics noses for a long time.

Now youre picking up on what Im saying, Warpspeed.

In order for China to achieve dominance, it must mive away from the Communist model into the capitalist. Thats exactly what American companies are doing to the American worker. Shipping out technology and jobs overseas where profits are higher. To China to be precise.

Of course. It all depends on how fast China can start making for itself. If the US collapses, all that stuff China makes will go to waste, and alot of people suddenly out of work. How fast Can China react to the sudden slump? Only time will tell.....

But its not just America that shall fall, the entire west is corrupt, from Europe to Australia. Western Culture has moved so far to a very base material society concentrated on the flow of money, period. I see corruption in the west as rampant, and Im not talking govornments only. Our societies themselves are falling apart, with rampant divorce rates, massively dropping birthrates, more and more mental and emotional problems, and a total disassociation from basic human feelinmgs and needs. A total pleasure society of orgies, amusement parks, nightclubs, wild parties, fashion victims, you name it. The ENTIRE west has become irreversably diseased. And this is what kills empires and nations ultimately.

Western Civilization itself shall fall. Europe, believe it or not, will crumble. The Euro is the rising star that temporarily will overtake the dollar, but Europe itself is also on its deathbed. Its very corrupt there too. Socially, politically, and economically. They shall fall too, and Asia shall dominate the world, because we see the massive machines of China and Japan, and cultural decdance has not reached anywhere near the hideous heights it has over here, yet.......

But the third world, will probably never reach the heights of the west, in order to function and reach our heights, thier cultures and mentalities must match, otherwise, no matter how much you pour into those countries, they shall stay hellholes. They need money from the west to develop thier own resources. Shall they fall too?

As to America becoming like argentina, no, we will not become anythign like that. A third world country? Well, until world war 2, we were pretty much a third world country, and we were fine back then. World domination doesnt agree with us, its not in the principal of this country. This country was not designed to rule or be ruled, but to offer a last resort for people who had reached the end of the rope back home. Thats what I wish to return to: an isolated happy and sane backwaters nation unconcerned and uninvolved in the world at large, free to pursue whatever it wishes, finally in charge of its own destiny.

because when you take control of the reins and become the power that is, your fate and destiny are no longer under your control, but under the whims of thise who actively seek to take you down.

If we had never become a world power, we would never have had any enemies. Well, and real enemies, had we been left alone, we could have developed alot stronger and sturdier a nation.

Unfortunately, certain people had other plans for us.

Its time we piss on thier parade and spoil em. Collapse the system. Throw in the chaos. We dont need NWO, we need NWC: new world chaos. The systems need to be brought down, and we need a new dark ages. Bad.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
A third world country? Well, until world war 2, we were pretty much a third world country, and we were fine back then. The systems need to be brought down, and we need a new dark ages. Bad.

Skadi, You're really starting to scare me. Some of the things you say make me hurt myself when my jaw hits the floor and then others make me fall out of my chair. I'm either going to have to stop reading your posts, or get some more accident insurance.

I hope your tongue was firmly in your cheek when you stated that the US was "pretty much a third world country" before WWII...come on now.

Also, if you think another dark age - which is defined as a period of time where not only were there not advances in civilization but regression - would fix ANYTHING...ewww, that's really scarey.

Um yeah, Valhal, we WERE basically a third world country.
For starters, we werent a world power. We were a backwaters Wild Bill hick country. Our military was pretty much used in petty conflicts to flex our puny muscles to our latin neighbors. Generally though, we werent getting into any real trouble on the outside. We had our wealthy, but we had a huge poor dispossesed lower class. We were relatively lawless and unregulated. Our bigegst rpoblems of the day were gang violnce in Chicago, what to do with our disabled World war 1 veterans, and of course, the great depression. That all changed in world war 2.

After World war 2, we suddenly were this huge industrialized superpower almost overnight. Tho it was actually going on and in the works long before world war 2, it didnt totally materialize until that war and we were the last man standing with enormous production capabilites. Those same things that made us a super power also are the things we have pissed away.

Economically, we were at our best in the 1950s, because then everyone was working, there was no huge debt, there was no huge massive scramble for credit, people were working and living well within thier means. You knwo, the golden years. But that became short lived, as we all know. And it wasnt total paradise.

Anyway, Im serious. A temporary dark ages and chaos is exactly what we need. Unless of course, you want the other option, lets us die a slow painful humiliating death like rome did, then throw ourselves into the dark ages while our enemies pick us apart. I prefer soemthing quicker, and more of our own control, for we have become entirely too complacent, and perhaps the only way we will stop handing over our freedoms, weelbing, and rights will be if we come close to losingt them forever. when you come to the brink of loss, you will suddenly remeber how precious they were. perhaps that might kick people off thier fat stupid asses.

otherwise, we can sit and stupidly rot away liek old people reveling in glory days long gone. You aint gonna change the system the nice way, tis far beyond that, tis easy to see. The existance of our inflated govornment and monsterous buerocracies is proof of this.

Nope, we need to bring the whole #ing structure down on THIER heads before the wrap the noose around ours, pure and simple. Sacrifice. Americans if they wanna stay fre and American better get re aquainted with that concept of sacrifice.

Skadi,

Honestly, saying it again doesn't make it so. Yep, I remember reading about all the other 3rd world countries being able to gear down their mass automobile production lines for mass military vehicle/aircraft production.

I remember also reading about all the third countries we were competing with on the nuclear front.

Those African prusuit vehicles almost took us out of the sky.

Just because we had been isolationists prior to WWII doesn't equate to backwater Buffalo Bills or third world status...or even near it.

Just about, Vahall. We didnt have any real infrastructure at all. Mostly localized. Most of the country was still backwoods buffalo bill style stuff, it was a free for all.

Now we have something resembling order and an oppresively large govornment that doesnt belong there......

I understand what you are saying about being a first world country. I guess that means a mainly agrarian economy, where the main activity is growing food and providing local goods and services only, with no real interest in the outside world. And there is nothing really wrong with that at all.

On the other hand a first world country will have a very great deal of international commerce, and a large navy to protect it. There will be diplomats and armies and spies very interested in the events in remote countries. There will also be conquests, intrigues, and military adventures.

The rapid spread of corruption and decadence has now reached everywhere. In Australia the biggest problem we have by far, is freemasonry, the second biggest problem drugs, and the third probably pornography in my opinion.

Australia is probably the only place in the world where there is no mafia, zero, not for over thirty years. The masons have totally eliminated the mafia over here.

It is good in one respect though, we do not have the killings and bashings that are so common in America, but it is impossible to work anywhere except for masons these days. Everything is rigged, manipulated and corrupt. As a retired professional engineer I can tell you that the main activity these days is covering up problems and hiding the truth from customers, rather than trying to really fix engineering problems. It is easier to steal designs than create your own. Career advancement is through the glove and apron, not through excellence or experience. It is impossible for a non mason to start a business, they would run you out of town.

That was the ideal, warpspeed. Once, we pretty much had our own country, were sitting pretty, no outside interests, pretty much an apethetic attitude towards the world. We had our mafia, we had our crime, but as far as world events, other than trade, people left us alone, we left them alone. For the most part. What was wrong with that? We were happy enough. Free to pursue whatever caught our whim, no worries of powerful enemies hunting us, hell the world gave us little more than a second thought, we had no empirem no real military, just a bunch of happy hillbillies, rebels, and inventors.

And now we are in a horrid, souless state, World War 3 approaches. the more I look, the more I am beginning to think WW3 is inevitable and perhaps, a blessing. perhaps the very basis of Western Civilization and society itself is too dangerous to exist. Perhaps its inevitable that we destroy ourselves in the end.

And let the third world make whatever they can from the ashes.

It has been going on throughout history. The Roman Empire did it, The British Empire did it, Russia (USSR) tried and failed, and America is trying and will also fail. But the world goes on.

I am also certain that the Rothschild NWO will also eventually collapse, but there is going to be a lot of pain to endure first. And I hope I do not live long enough to see it.

The existance of Superpowers period, cannot be tolerated. This nonsense has gone on long enough. When Rome fell,t he west fell into Chaos, but rose again. In order for the Rothschilds and banking houses of Europe to fall, the west must totally fall. the west is in decline, but the question is, can we die off before we start a war against one another that finishes us off?

America does need to collapse, unfortunately, it may not happen soon enogh before alot worse things happen.

This never ending perennial insanity that has consumed the west for the past 3000 years has to end, we cant go on with a never ending cycle of powershifts. If this is indeed the nature of western civilization, then it needs to die, period. Superpowers, secret societies, hidden agendas, this is not anyway for humanity to exist in this endless cycle.

A bigger cycle must have its due, the West has outlived its usefulness and its time should be up, its time for the destruction of the west so a new cycle can hopefully begin.

It almost amkes me want to have hope in the predictions of the Myana calender and the end of a cycle, unfortunately, I canot put any faith there as much as I want to.

All this megalomania and greed will surely destroy itself, but in all the chaos of history, China stands alone in that it is still there. Empires come and empires go, but China has not been defeated in over 5,000 years. This makes me think it will still be there when the west is in flaming starving ruins.

The other interesting thing is Islam. The satanists have infiltrated and corrupted most of the worlds recognised religions, but not Islam. Islam cannot be defeated except by war, and that is what I think all this war on terrorism nonsense is about. Islam is still the fastest growing religion in the world, I am a Christian, but having read the Koran, there is no doubt in my mind that it definitely is the word of God.

I also believe that the next antichrist will be from the Rothschild/masonic/satanists, rather than Islam. But this is getting well off topic.